Dual Citizenship / NS Obligations / HDB Flats and Migration

[eatshitndie]

You've started to quibble. That's not a good sign in any debate.:p

As far as the statutes go, it would seem that the SG govt wants to reserve the right to remove sinkie citizenship should they find out that a sinkie has obtained citizenship somewhere else.

It appears to be all rather benign given the sinkie govt's record of harsh punishment whenever a crime is committed.

I can only conclude that holding two or more citizenships is not illegal and the statutes have been written in such a manner that the govt has the right to allow it or disallow it depending on who's involved. EG : Lee Hsien Yang would be allowed to hold two passports. Chee Soon Juan would not.

ah, besides the point of the debate. we're talking about specifics in writing in law that addresses the issue of dual citizenship (for the common sg scum). just don't claim they don't exist and when called out on it, turn around to play word games with the legality aspect. every gov on this planet has the tools and caveat to circumvent the laws they create. for example, most govs have their black ops engaged in forging passports and stamps.

 

[Charlie9]

I just read article 134 and my interpretation of what is says, in plain English, is that if you obtain citizenship of another country, the sinkie govt has the right to take away your sinkie citizenship if it so chooses.

Nowhere in article 134 does it say it is an OFFENCE to hold two or more citizenships.

Thank you [SamLeong].

Although I am not as familiar with SG legislation, especially its Constitution, it looks like LeongSam's position is similar to [scroobal].

I agree that the SG legislation as it exists, does not make it an offence for an individual to be a dual citizen. In addition, "may" is not equivalent to "shall"

Have a good Sunday.

 

[scroobal]

He is still unable to produce anything despite giving him the link to all the existing laws in Singapore.

1) No where does it state that holding dual citizenship or multiple citizenship is an offence. He made the claim and he can't point it out despite giving all existing law references.

2) He also does not know the meaning of the English word "may" in Section 134. He obviously does not know how to interpret. The discussion on "may" had already occurred much earlier in this thread with any forummer. Sec 134 does not even state that it is offence , a crime but a merely a reason or condition to act if they feel like it. Thats common sense in the event, the someone with dual citizenship acts in an adverse manner towards singapore.

I actually don't blame him. I too was on the other side of the fence until I decided to check fo myself. The human ego is rather fragile when one gets cornerned by one's own strident claims. Note the irrelevant comments about credibility, respect, diatribe etc which has nothing to do with his claim in the first place.

Unfortunately majority of Singaporeans do have the same perceptions as him. We have been led by the nose for too long.

However he does contribute positively as those who are viewing this can learn for themselves as the debate has been rather robust with the desire to cover all gorunds.

You've started to quibble. That's not a good sign in any debate.:p

As far as the statutes go, it would seem that the SG govt wants to reserve the right to remove sinkie citizenship should they find out that a sinkie has obtained citizenship somewhere else.

It appears to be all rather benign given the sinkie govt's record of harsh punishment whenever a crime is committed.

I can only conclude that holding two or more citizenships is not illegal and the statutes have been written in such a manner that the govt has the right to allow it or disallow it depending on who's involved. EG : Lee Hsien Yang would be allowed to hold two passports. Chee Soon Juan would not.

 

[scroobal]

Touche! nothing like using live examples LHL and Chee. Thats exactly the position the PAP wants.

My journey on this began when I realised that someone of national interest had dual citizenship, only to realise that it was prevalent amongst businessmen.

When old man in parliment revealed that he can't help it when the char kway teow man puts 2 eggs in his dish in relations to the Nassim Jade Inquiry, it sort of indicated how they straddle between 2 postions.

Well it all fell into place when old man revealed about 2 years to the Press that formalising dual citizenship is now in the cabinet KIV tray. I guess you can't beat globalisation.

You've started to quibble.
I can only conclude that holding two or more citizenships is not illegal and the statutes have been written in such a manner that the govt has the right to allow it or disallow it depending on who's involved. EG : Lee Hsien Yang would be allowed to hold two passports. Chee Soon Juan would not.

 

[scroobal]

I too thought like you on some of the points that you raised. Then I started checking.

The only way that this government can force you to renounce your singapore citizenship is the following scenarios
1) To withdraw your CPF when you migrate and take up new citizenship
2) To avoid NS to those who migrated below the age of 11 then (now 13)when they reach 21.

If you read the constitution , I suspect the provision preventing minors renouncing singapore citizenship is to avoid a situation where parents happily renounce citizenship when the kids are eligible for NS and the law cannot touch a non-citizen.

The fact that non-citizens have been doing NS in Singapore for decades is rather interesting. We now have scandinavians, americans, canadians and I am given to understand aussies forming the largest foreign component doing NS in Singapore does give a picture of a country that is finding it tough to handle the draw of globalisation and citizenship. In another decade it will PRC and Indian foreigners who will be doing NS next to locals.

At the end of the day, no on has been able to provide any evidence that holding a foreign citizenship whilst being a singapore citizenship is an offence, a cime or an illegitimate act.

What is clear is that no minor under the age of 21 of both gender cannot renounce the singapore citizenship. What is interesting is that the Govt does not have to accept the renounciation.

For nearly 2 decades, our young grew up in the belief that Singapore wanted to come out of Malaysia and not vice versa. Educational text avoided the clarity and that perception held strong with those who were schooled in the 70s and 80s wsith exception. Its another example of government

You are incorrect. Singapore is unique as all citizens below the age of 21 is permitted dual nationality but not thereafter.

Singapore DOES NOT RECOGNIZE dual nationality after 21 years of age, and should you attempt to apply for a IC or Passport after they are informed or become aware of entrance into Singapore with a different passport or name you will be denied. They will ordinarily not force you to give up your current passport/SG citizenship if you are current, but you wont be able to renew it or your IC for that matter. They do have the ability to strip you of your citizenship but its rare - as in criminal cases where they are better off deporting you.

 

[scroobal]

Thought I will address this separately.

The point is that its not offence to have dual citizenship. Nothing to do with renewal of passport. I would suggest to those that migrated not to renounce their citizenship because it is not a crime to have dual citizenship in Singapore. Hold on to it until they formalise dual citizenship which is the trend around the world.

There are poor souls that diligently renouce their singapore citizenship on false perceptions. They also not need to travel on singapore passport as they have their new country's passport.

People have already stated in this forum and I am well aware of many migrants who have told the immigration that they hold new citizenship and new passport. The advice given is to use the Singapore passport when entering and exiting singapore. Nothing else happens. Freedom of travel is not at all affected.

If you want an official reply from this government. They will categorically state that "singapore does not recognise dual citizenship" but will never clarify that it is not an offence to hold another citizenship. The ignorant and the fearful (or it it kiasu) will of course interpret the other way. This is the same government that revealed after many years that pop jumped from 2.3M to 4.4m with no explanation why the gap was there.

Singapore DOES NOT RECOGNIZE dual nationality after 21 years of age, and should you attempt to apply for a IC or Passport after they are informed or become aware of entrance into Singapore with a different passport or name you will be denied. They will ordinarily not force you to give up your current passport/SG citizenship if you are current, but you wont be able to renew it or your IC for that matter. They do have the ability to strip you of your citizenship but its rare - as in criminal cases where they are better off deporting you.

 

[Charlie9]

Re: Dual Citizenship

Thought I will address this separately.

The point is that its not offence to have dual citizenship. Nothing to do with renewal of passport. I would suggest to those that migrated not to renounce their citizenship because it is not a crime to have dual citizenship in Singapore. Hold on to it until they formalise dual citizenship which is the trend around the world.

There are poor souls that diligently renouce their singapore citizenship on false perceptions. They also not need to travel on singapore passport as they have their new country's passport.

People have already stated in this forum and I am well aware of many migrants who have told the immigration that they hold new citizenship and new passport. The advice given is to use the Singapore passport when entering and exiting singapore. Nothing else happens. Freedom of travel is not at all affected.

If you want an official reply from this government. They will categorically state that "singapore does not recognise dual citizenship" but will never clarify that it is not an offence to hold another citizenship. The ignorant and the fearful (or it it kiasu) will of course interpret the other way. This is the same government that revealed after many years that pop jumped from 2.3M to 4.4m with no explanation why the gap was there.

It was several years ago when the Honourable Mr. Goh used the words quitters. Thereafter, I wrote to his office to consider allowing dual citizenship. I did not receive any response.

Prior to that when the Honourable Mr. Lee was PM, I wrote to his office regarding CMPB giving me a difficult time when I applied to renew my exit permit amd to renew my passport on an annual basis. I suggested that MINDEF considers a two-year renewal of exit permit, and leave the SG passport as valid for 5 years, because it was very inconvenient for me to send my passport to the SG Embassy at Washington DC to be renewed. No response.

However, after reading your posts, and having experienced a much faster exit permit renewal, and the change in the validity of SG passport, I am glad that I have diligently applied for the renewal of my exit permit.

I hope that the SG government will officially allow dual citizenship soon.

 

[scroobal]

Re: Dual Citizenship

I am pretty sure that will formalise it eventually. Global pressure is just too much. The fact that old man revealed that it went before the cabinet is clear indicator that it was considered seriously. Though no decision was made, the fact that he it placed in the KIV tray is a good indicator.

Singapore cannot afford to lose some of their best minds.

I hope that the SG government will officially allow dual citizenship soon.

 

[scroobal]

All

Thought I will clarify where semantics is concerned. From what I can see, there is no evidence to suggest that holding dual or multiple passports is
1) an offence
2) a crime
3) illegal
4) an infringement
5) a wrong
6) a sin (maybe to some)

Singapore govt however have consistently stated that they it does not "recognise" dual citizenship. Its strikes me as a "preferred position" just as they feel that PAP is the only party for all constituencies.

There are laws to take away your citizenship but these are not mandates. Its an avenue in the event that you do something adverse to the country.

Don't just surrender your passport on false perceptions, myths and rumours. You have every right to hold it. Its a birthright.

There are however obligations that you must be honest about. If you are serving the Govt, SAF or anything that is sensitive to the country's national security and interest, you must clearly state that you are in possession of foreign citizenship. Thats common sense.

 

[AhSo1]

You are incorrect. Singapore is unique as all citizens below the age of 21 is permitted dual nationality but not thereafter.

Singapore DOES NOT RECOGNIZE dual nationality after 21 years of age, and should you attempt to apply for a IC or Passport after they are informed or become aware of entrance into Singapore with a different passport or name you will be denied. They will ordinarily not force you to give up your current passport/SG citizenship if you are current, but you wont be able to renew it or your IC for that matter. They do have the ability to strip you of your citizenship but its rare - as in criminal cases where they are better off deporting you.

As a matter of law I can agree with most of your statement. The determinant factor is the naturalization of a foreign citizenship to complement Singaporean. There are quite a few dual nationality holders here and abroad and the ICA and Ministry of Foreign affairs handles this on a case by case basis. The law is plain and simple, they have the authority to take away your Singaporean Citizenship but the enforcement of such is virtually nonexistant.

I have heard of cases where after many years a Singaporean has applied for a passport only to be told they must choose due to that person landing in Singapore with another passport. Several cases have been solved after family ties and business relationships have been submitted to the ICA, even cases of educated Singaporeans have been overlooked, all on a case by case basis. If the ICA officer can establish that you contribute to Singapore, then its overlooked, but it is illegal.

One should be very careful not to enter Singapore with a foreign passport should one wish to retain dual nationality status, which is illegal, but openly tolerated by our government.

Point is its illegal but its not enforced but then prostitution is illegal in Thailand, not a pretty analogy but it comes close.

 

[eatshitndie]

As a matter of law I can agree with most of your statement. The determinant factor is the naturalization of a foreign citizenship to complement Singaporean. There are quite a few dual nationality holders here and abroad and the ICA and Ministry of Foreign affairs handles this on a case by case basis. The law is plain and simple, they have the authority to take away your Singaporean Citizenship but the enforcement of such is virtually nonexistant.

I have heard of cases where after many years a Singaporean has applied for a passport only to be told they must choose due to that person landing in Singapore with another passport. Several cases have been solved after family ties and business relationships have been submitted to the ICA, even cases of educated Singaporeans have been overlooked, all on a case by case basis. If the ICA officer can establish that you contribute to Singapore, then its overlooked, but it is illegal.

One should be very careful not to enter Singapore with a foreign passport should one wish to retain dual nationality status, which is illegal, but openly tolerated by our government.

Point is its illegal but its not enforced but then prostitution is illegal in Thailand, not a pretty analogy but it comes close.

sg has a bunch of rules that are not necessarily spelled out as constitutional law, but each rule can easily carry offenses that lead to punishment. being ordered to give up one's citizenship involuntarily is punishment enough. sg also has the 3/4 tank rule, the no chewing gum rule and the flush the toilet rule. they don't always punish anyone in violation of these rules, but to make an example of a few to scare the rest, they will roast the scapegoats. same with dual citizenship. it's hard to catch the culprits, but if ever there's a crackdown, whole families will be affected. that's the nature of the beast of sg law. it's never a truly balanced and fair practice in sg. never underestimate the sg gov nonetheless. when push comes to shove, the regime has an overwhelming majority in parliament to enact any law they deem fit and punish anyone they dislike. i always recommend a clean break from their grasps and treat sg like a divorcee, with legality all sorted out properly. if anyone wishes to play punk with them, go ahead and make my day. my advice has fallen on deaf ears.

 

[Leongsam]

sg has a bunch of rules that are not necessarily spelled out as constitutional law, but each rule can easily carry offenses that lead to punishment. being ordered to give up one's citizenship involuntarily is punishment enough. sg also has the 3/4 tank rule, the no chewing gum rule and the flush the toilet rule. they don't always punish anyone in violation of these rules, but to make an example of a few to scare the rest, they will roast the scapegoats. same with dual citizenship.

You're really clutching at straws aren't you. The ¾ tank rule and the chewing gum rule are clearly deemed to be OFFENCES punishable by law.

The ¾ tank rule carries a penalty of $500. Tampering with the fuel gauge can result in a jail term. Same goes with chewing gum and toilet flushing. Dual citizenship, on the other hand, carries no penalties whatsoever. Stripping the so called "offender" of his sinkie citizenship is hardly punishment considering the fact that he doesn't need a sinkie passport anymore.:p

Why don't you simply admit that you're interpretation of the dual citizenship rules was wrong. A simple... "Sorry guys.. I misunderstood the rules" would suffice.

Your ongoing attempts to justify your erroneous interpretation of the rules is just making you look more and more stupid.

 

[eatshitndie]

You're really clutching at straws aren't you. The ¾ tank rule and the chewing gum rule are clearly deemed to be OFFENCES punishable by law.

The ¾ tank rule carries a penalty of $500. Tampering with the fuel gauge can result in a jail term. Same goes with chewing gum and toilet flushing. Dual citizenship, on the other hand, carries no penalties whatsoever. Stripping the so called "offender" of his sinkie citizenship is hardly punishment considering the fact that he doesn't need a sinkie passport anymore.:p

Why don't you simply admit that you're interpretation of the dual citizenship rules was wrong. A simple... "Sorry guys.. I misunderstood the rules" would suffice.

Your ongoing attempts to justify your erroneous interpretation of the rules is just making you look more and more stupid.

after you fess up about dishing out nonsense online for a decade, i'm not sure if anything you said can be taken seriously.

 

[eatshitndie]

immigration act chapter 133

when convicted, the offense carries a fine not exceeding sgd$1000 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 6 months or to both, and this is applicable to any person who enters and leaves sg in contravention of subsection 1 of said act.

subsection 1 refers to a person who is an sg citizen (whether or not the person is also a national of another country) with a valid sg passport and a person who is a non-citizen but possesses a valid foreign passport. subsection 1 is subject to subsection 2 which give immigration officers powers of waiver on the requirement of passports and other travel docs.

by interpretation, if you're an sg citizen but also a citizen of another country, use your sg passort if it is still valid. otherwise, you stand to contravene subsection 1 and will need subsection 2 to get a waiver, depending on the mood of the immigration officer. you cannot be an sg citizen and use a foreign passport when you enter sg. if caught, the above offense is applicable. that's what happened to a buddy of mine with a french passport. the fine was sgd$1000. and she also had to surrender her sg passport at the changi checkpoint.

subsection 2 is what irks me. it's totally dependent on the immigration officer.

ok, sammy, the straw that broke the camel's back. i've been waiting for this moment. always leave the best to the last. sammy is right. dual citizenship is not an offense; carrying a foreign passport into an sg port while still being an sg citizen is (only when caught and not waived by the immigration officer). but they allow it for persons whom they choose to ignore.

 

[scroobal]

You seriously do have an issue with comprehension and interpretation. Not trying to belittle you but I suspect that English may not be your first subject. You might want to bring this to a family friend who is good in the language or get a reputable lawyer. Its better than living in fear or being misled. The clue is also there indicating the existence of dual citizenship.

By the way, countries that allow dual citizenship always advise multiple passport holders to use the passport of the country that they entering and exiting for census purposes.

Do like the bit about the "french buddy," "mood of the immigration officer" "camel", "straw" etc. Does give colour to the posting.

immigration act chapter 133

when convicted, the offense carries a fine not exceeding sgd$1000 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 6 months or to both, and this is applicable to any person who enters and leaves sg in contravention of subsection 1 of said act.

subsection 1 refers to a person who is an sg citizen (whether or not the person is also a national of another country) with a valid sg passport and a person who is a non-citizen but possesses a valid foreign passport. subsection 1 is subject to subsection 2 which give immigration officers powers of waiver on the requirement of passports and other travel docs.

by interpretation, if you're an sg citizen but also a citizen of another country, use your sg passort if it is still valid. otherwise, you stand to contravene subsection 1 and will need subsection 2 to get a waiver, depending on the mood of the immigration officer. you cannot be an sg citizen and use a foreign passport when you enter sg. if caught, the above offense is applicable. that's what happened to a buddy of mine with a french passport. the fine was sgd$1000. and she also had to surrender her sg passport at the changi checkpoint.

subsection 2 is what irks me. it's totally dependent on the immigration officer.

ok, sammy, the straw that broke the camel's back. i've been waiting for this moment. always leave the best to the last. sammy is right. dual citizenship is not an offense; carrying a foreign passport into an sg port while still being an sg citizen is (only when caught and not waived by the immigration officer). but they allow it for persons whom they choose to ignore.

 

[scroobal]

Might want to read this as there is an earlier in this thread on the same thing.

http://www.singsupplies.com/showpost.php?p=247544&postcount=72

subsection 1 refers to a person who is an sg citizen (whether or not the person is also a national of another country) with a valid sg passport and a person who is a non-citizen but possesses a valid foreign passport. subsection 1 is subject to subsection 2 which give immigration officers powers of waiver on the requirement of passports and other travel docs.

 

[eatshitndie]

this is not a joke nor a debate on imaginary events. the reason i'm curious about this law is i have a good ex-sg friend who had been confronted by sg immigration, asked to step aside, go to an office, was interrogated, asked to surrender the sg passport and was fined $1000. all she did was go thru' immigration with her french passport.

can anyone give me an answer? and i'm not asking you scroo because you have been of no help.

 

[Asychee]

Thank you [SamLeong].

Although I am not as familiar with SG legislation, especially its Constitution, it looks like LeongSam's position is similar to [scroobal].

I agree that the SG legislation as it exists, does not make it an offence for an individual to be a dual citizen. In addition, "may" is not equivalent to "shall"

Have a good Sunday.

From what i read so far I will agreed with scroobal. Anyway, it does not make any different. Once i get the CA citizenship, i will chop up my Sg and collect my cpf before it becomes too late.

 

[Asychee]

You're really clutching at straws aren't you. The ¾ tank rule and the chewing gum rule are clearly deemed to be OFFENCES punishable by law.

The ¾ tank rule carries a penalty of $500. Tampering with the fuel gauge can result in a jail term. Same goes with chewing gum and toilet flushing. Dual citizenship, on the other hand, carries no penalties whatsoever. Stripping the so called "offender" of his sinkie citizenship is hardly punishment considering the fact that he doesn't need a sinkie passport anymore.:p

Why don't you simply admit that you're interpretation of the dual citizenship rules was wrong. A simple... "Sorry guys.. I misunderstood the rules" would suffice.

Your ongoing attempts to justify your erroneous interpretation of the rules is just making you look more and more stupid.

Agreed, black also want to talk until white. How to do big things - just move on. PAPPY ministar also knows how to say " it is a honest mistake" over 1/4 of a billion.

 

[Asychee]

You seriously do have an issue with comprehension and interpretation. Not trying to belittle you but I suspect that English may not be your first subject. You might want to bring this to a family friend who is good in the language or get a reputable lawyer. Its better than living in fear or being misled. The clue is also there indicating the existence of dual citizenship.

By the way, countries that allow dual citizenship always advise multiple passport holders to use the passport of the country that they entering and exiting for census purposes.

Do like the bit about the "french buddy," "mood of the immigration officer" "camel", "straw" etc. Does give colour to the posting.

It's a matter of face for others. I am happy to have "O" level only and am humble to open my mouth to say i dont understand and ask others who have better english than me.