Dual Citizenship / NS Obligations / HDB Flats and Migration

[scroobal]

Hate them ? How did you come to that.

Would you allow your immediate family to languish in such a manner? If your child is doing badly in school, would you not correct it? If your sister in law has a marge simpson hairdo, would you not have a word with your wife.

Take a leaf from Singaporean lady who used to be based out of Pierce Airbase in Perth with RSAF. As her husband was stationed there, she began home pastry business by word or mouth.

When she realised that some of migrants were stuck in time, she decided to do something about it. She began cajoling and persuading these people to move with the times. Recommending hairdresser, taking them shopping etc. Something that we do back in Singapore.

When I come across close friends who have such people in their circles, I do encourage them to help them. They should not be left locked in a time warp.

Why would you not help them?

You helped Singaporean, yet you said their suaku or hate them... why ah ?

 

[scroobal]

Reminds me of hawker at Woodlands who sold his HDB masionette at $640K during the 90s boom to finance his migration. Its seems that it was high time for many singaporeans to leave the country.

You have to remember that I was moving from place to place during one of the biggest boom periods in OZ history. Moving didn't cost me a thing. In fact, I made a pile. :p That's one of the reasons why I moved in the first place. If you don't move, you can't cash out.

 

[Papsmearer]

Theoretically, my wife and I could take the necessary steps to apply for several citizenships for our children: born Canadian, if I apply for SG citizenship for them (through the route of being born of a SG parent), and my wife could apply for her native country's citizenship (and probably qualify for the EU) via that country. It may be beneficial as it may allow them to have the possible opportunities. Although many of my friends did not understand why I took the trouble to continuously apply for Exit Permit from MINDEF. Life is too short and uncertain not to try to obtain as many possible opportunities and open as many doors for our children. Who knows whether or not SG could be the Paris of the East in ten years.

I don't understand people like u. U would commit your children to 2 years of NS, followed by decade of reservist? For fuck? I have seen people die, get seriously injured, etc. during NS. Given the choice, I would never ever subject my kids to that. What possible opportunity can a Singapore citizenship provide in S'pore, over a PR, a work permit, or a foreign investor/businessman? When your children become adults, and they think there are many opportunities in S'pore, they can go there as an FT. They will be treated better than a citizen. They can be a Canadian citizen opening a business in s'pore, etc.
People like u give new definition to the word Kiasu. U got canadian citizenship, but think that getting an EU and a Singapore one is also good. Geez.

 

[Papsmearer]

Theoretically, my wife and I could take the necessary steps to apply for several citizenships for our children: born Canadian, if I apply for SG citizenship for them (through the route of being born of a SG parent), and my wife could apply for her native country's citizenship (and probably qualify for the EU) via that country. It may be beneficial as it may allow them to have the possible opportunities. Although many of my friends did not understand why I took the trouble to continuously apply for Exit Permit from MINDEF. Life is too short and uncertain not to try to obtain as many possible opportunities and open as many doors for our children. Who knows whether or not SG could be the Paris of the East in ten years.

I don't understand people like u. U would commit your children to 2 years of NS, followed by decade of reservist? For fuck? I have seen people die, get seriously injured, etc. during NS. Given the choice, I would never ever subject my kids to that. What possible opportunity can a Singapore citizenship provide in S'pore, over a PR, a work permit, or a foreign investor/businessman? When your children become adults, and they think there are many opportunities in S'pore, they can go there as an FT. They will be treated better than a citizen. They can be a Canadian citizen opening a business in s'pore, etc.
People like u give new definition to the word Kiasu. U got canadian citizenship, but think that getting an EU and a Singapore one is also good. Geez.

 

[Papsmearer]

I thought in view of the interest expressed, it might be pertinent to put couple of things together for those who are planning to migrate and seek a new life. You will never find anything with clarity with the autocratic PAP and I do not want to see the Elites benefiting and the rest making the wrong decision.

This thread is not about migrating. This is for those who have made the decision and looking for help with some aspects. Others are welcome to throw in their view and experiences

Do note that things change over time.

NS Obligations

Those with boy migrating and who leave these shores before their boys reach the age of 11 yrs are not obliged to do NS but have to follow the necessary procedures to get exemption. Passports expire at the age of 11 and that should be an indicator.

Once you have left, do not renew the passport, apply for NRIC etc as one is deemed to enjoyed the privileges of citizenship and NS become mandatory.

At age 13, apply to CMPB for exit visa stating that your family has migrated and the kids is enrolled in a school in the new country. No bond is required. CMPB uses an outsourced agency to handle call centre matters and they have no clue about migrant cases. Go directly to CMPB.

At age 16.5, you need to register for NS ( an interesting term as you are actually seeking deferment). You can do it by post to CMPB again citing that you have migrated, acquired new citizenship and the kids is schooling. You will be given deferment until the age of 21 where the kid must decide if they want to hold on their Singapore citizenship. If they do, than NS must be served. If not, exmeption for ever.

All Singaporeans, male and female cannot renounce their citizenship until age 21, and if they have acquired new citizenship, they will be dual citizens.

In the meantime, one can travel in and out of Singapore without bond and using the passport of their new country.

Those who left after 11 years, unfortunately are obliged to serve.

Note: If your child's Singapore passport expires at the age of 11 and the family is not eligible for new citizenship, the kid will not be able to travel. Do resist the pain of not visiting Singapore unless you want him to serve NS. Do not let friends and extended family members make decisions for your kids.

Whatever it is, do be careful so that your kid can travel in and out of Singapore when he grows up and not be banned.

This entire section can be substituted with one sentence. "Don't be a kiasu, renounce your S'pore citizenship and u never have to deal with this again"

 

[Papsmearer]

HDB Issues

Naturally those who are migrating are quite apprehensive about their new country and as an insurance tend to hold onto their HDB flat, downsize or even buy one in case they have to return.

HDB does not allow sale to take place unless you have been residing ( not only owning but physically residing) in the flat for a certain period prior to sale. The last I heard is 2 years. I have known familes that had to return temporarily for 2 years in order to sell their flat. I also know that these families have written to their MPs citing hardship but have been turned down. I know of only one case that was given exemption.

Of course, others find ways to avoid this by claiming that they have been residing prior to sale or do not rent out at all and except mails wacthed over by relatives.

A better way is to buy private property such as condo which I know is more expensive. That way, if you need cash in your new country, you can liquidate your asset here quickly. Alternatively, place it in a more liquid asset.

HDB generally does not allow non-citizens and those who have given up PR in Singapore to hold on to HDB flats. They will however give you time to sell if your appeal fails but the minimum residency requirement will likely hold. Parents who have given up their citizenship but who have dual citizenship kids can use that angle to hold on citing things like the kid can stay there during NS if NS is required.

This entire section can be substituted with one sentence. "Don't be a kiasu, sell your flat, renounce your citizenship, and take the money and your CPF to your new country, and u never have to deal with this again"

 

[axe168]

Why would you not help them?

I accepted the fact that someone will be left behind..

The world outside SG is a big jungle, if they do not have the capabilities to defend their rights and take part ownership of the pie, they'll be better-off staying within the tinypore waiting for instructions. The NS system and the education sys in SG have taught us to be a "better officer" rather than a survival..

Let me quote you one event. There was a gathering, one man (40s) asked me for some tips to attend an interview and few technical related stuff.. I told him to read up "XXX" chapter xx and some tips.. 2 guys shouted from a distance, "Dont be selfish & cannot share or explain what's in the bible.." !@#$%^&@#$.. The old man finally took the courage to read up ~ day and night, attended the interview.. and answered all their questions listed in XXX chapter xx.. Finally, he got the job !.. Guess who are those 2 losers who shouted ? they are jobless, collecting benefits..

Bottomline, you can't help them, if they don't help themselves..

 

[axe168]

This entire section can be substituted with one sentence. "Don't be a kiasu, sell your flat, renounce your citizenship, and take the money and your CPF to your new country, and u never have to deal with this again"

Kiasuism is not only for S'poreans... in this suburb (where I live) all mummies are kiasu too... During the mummy tea session, the locals encouraged my wifey to enrol kid to the independent high school as early as possible, as a result, a group of them matched to the doorstep of XXX independent school paying $xxx for enrolment fee. I asked a question what's the yearly fee for the school and the curriulum activities... she dont bloody know !?!.. She said it is good for the kid.. !@#$%^&!@#$%... a check revealed it cost about $25k/pa !!!! KNS..

By the way, my wifey is a strong PAP supporter.. a NTU/NUS grad.. pengz..

 

[eatshitndie]

This entire section can be substituted with one sentence. "Don't be a kiasu, sell your flat, renounce your citizenship, and take the money and your CPF to your new country, and u never have to deal with this again"

true. have integrity. be sincere and genuine, and all parties will accept that you have a clean break. the most important aspect is to be honorable in anything we do. and if that means giving up sg citizenship to comply with sg's law, so be it.

no point trying to have your cake and eat it too. running afoul of sg's law can mean burning the proverbial bridge. i know of too many cases where folks trying to straddle two boats for advantage for too long get blacklisted. i can't stand folks who milk the system dry just because there is a flaw in it and it's left open for exploitation. i don't recommend hiring people who have this selfish attitude in everything they do. it's they first, and others can go to hell for all they care. there's zero team spirit in their guts. and they carry that poor attitude all their lives.

 

[scroobal]

You have to move with the times. Most advanced countries allow dual and multiple citizenships. Trend is moving in that direction. Nothing to do with being exploitive or having your cake and eating it. Its being less ignorant, not fear baseless authority or listen to myths and rumours. Its to allow your offspring to take advantage of the wider world.

For many of these countries and their citizens, dual citizenship is a recent development.. Australia for instance only allowed it April 2004. Why do you Australia, Canada, US, UK and many others allow it. Do you think their citizens are less "sincere" and lack "integrity"

Nothing do with integrity or being sincere. Thats like advising someone not to buy 2 houses or more as you can only reside in one. If someone can afford it, it up to him how many he can acquire if the law allows it.

Another example is businessmen will never deal with only one bank. Minimum 2. Never ever place all your eggs in one basket if you can afford it.

Frankly how integrity and sincerity came into play for dual citizenship is beyond me.

Singaporeans have to realise that Singapore does not belong to the PAP or the govt. The country belongs to those who grew up and contributed to it. Having ambiguous and translucent laws where only the rich and educated can waltz thru them while ignorant are led blindly by myths and rumours.

The fact that no one in Singapore's history has been prosecuted for having more than one citizenship is a clue that no such laws exist.

true. have integrity. be sincere and genuine, and all parties will accept that you have a clean break. the most important aspect is to be honorable in anything we do. and if that means giving up sg citizenship to comply with sg's law, so be it.

no point trying to have your cake and eat it too. running afoul of sg's law can mean burning the proverbial bridge. i know of too many cases where folks trying to straddle two boats for advantage for too long get blacklisted. i can't stand folks who milk the system dry just because there is a flaw in it and it's left open for exploitation. i don't recommend hiring people who have this selfish attitude in everything they do. it's they first, and others can go to hell for all they care. there's zero team spirit in their guts. and they carry that poor attitude all their lives.

 

[Charlie9]

Re: Dual Citizenship, and the Global Trend

You have to move with the times. Most advanced countries allow dual and multiple citizenships. Trend is moving in that direction. Nothing to do with being exploitive or having your cake and eating it. Its being less ignorant, not fear baseless authority or listen to myths and rumours. Its to allow your offspring to take advantage of the wider world.

For many of these countries and their citizens, dual citizenship is a recent development.. Australia for instance only allowed it April 2004. Why do you Australia, Canada, US, UK and many others allow it. Do you think their citizens are less "sincere" and lack "integrity"

Nothing do with integrity or being sincere. Thats like advising someone not to buy 2 houses or more as you can only reside in one. If someone can afford it, it up to him how many he can acquire if the law allows it.

Another example is businessmen will never deal with only one bank. Minimum 2. Never ever place all your eggs in one basket if you can afford it.

Frankly how integrity and sincerity came into play for dual citizenship is beyond me.

Singaporeans have to realise that Singapore does not belong to the PAP or the govt. The country belongs to those who grew up and contributed to it. Having ambiguous and translucent laws where only the rich and educated can waltz thru them while ignorant are led blindly by myths and rumours.

The fact that no one in Singapore's history has been prosecuted for having more than one citizenship is a clue that no such laws exist.

I am glad to read your post, and you proved me right that you can write better to try to explain to those individuals whose perspective appears to be narrower than beneficial for them.

Specifically, I agree with you regarding businessmen dealing with more than one bank. May I add, the time to deal with a banker (and to raise financing) is when you or your business does not need the banker (and the financing). Accordingly, when you do not need any additional room for your business line of credit, seek approval for it, or better still, when they offer it to you, gladly accept it (and their free meals and drinks, and send them a Thank You card to thank them profusely), because when you need it, it may not be there.

 

[eatshitndie]

it's great and dandy when countries don't care and don't have this pride/fear overhang. many of my buddies here have multiple citizenships, eu and american, but when it comes to sg, they had to let it go. either they got caught at immigration or they voluntarily gave up due to high maintenance and constant vigilance (to the point of stress). i don't care who the current regime is in sg, but if the current law forbids dual citizenship after 21, one should honor and abide by that law. until the law changes, one shouldn't be breaking it. it's like the border at california and arizona with mexico. the mexicans know it's illegal to cross it without a visa, yet they continue to do it because everybody does it easily. and when caught and deported, cry out for injustice and inflexibility as their kids who are born in the us are left behind. i welcome the day when sg finally gives in to dual citizenship. i'm all for it, but if the sg law says no, let's all play fair with sg.

 

[eatshitndie]

Re: Dual Citizenship, and the Global Trend

I am glad to read your post, and you proved me right that you can write better to try to explain to those individuals whose perspective appears to be narrower than beneficial for them.

Specifically, I agree with you regarding businessmen dealing with more than one bank. May I add, the time to deal with a banker (and to raise financing) is when you or your business does not need the banker (and the financing). Accordingly, when you do not need any additional room for your business line of credit, seek approval for it, or better still, when they offer it to you, gladly accept it (and their free meals and drinks, and send them a Thank You card to thank them profusely), because when you need it, it may not be there.

don't be stupid. that analogy doesn't even come close. if you deal with banks in an illegal manner, you'll be arrested and face jail time. at least in the case of sg dual citizenship, if you get caught, they will let you go but they will force you to renounce on the spot. it's like getting caught with a naked mistress with your pants down by your wife, and she immediately sues for divorce.

 

[scroobal]

Thats what I am trying to tell you. There is no such law in Singapore where it forbids you holding more than one citizenship. Australia until 2004 actually had it.

Here is the online laws of singapore. http://statutes.agc.gov.sg/
Help yourself.

We should not propogate myths that are have no clue about. This whole thread is about dispelling this rubbish.

but if the current law forbids dual citizenship after 21, one should honor and abide by that law. until the law changes,

 

[scroobal]

Re: Dual Citizenship, and the Global Trend

Another misguided myth. Firstly he is not suggesting anything illegal. How did you come to that?

Secondly no one can force you to renounce your citizenship. People renounce it to withdraw their CPF. Those who renounce it in the past did sao because it was then a condition of acquiring new citizenship by the new country. The advanced nations no longer do that. Then we have singaporeans who are ignorant who have renounced after hearing about myths.

I will be the first to admit that many Singaporeans thought that it was against the law including me until I realised that many well to do people and families connected to the PAP were having dual citizenship. These people did not need to withdraw CPF.

When the PAP wanted to remove Tan Wah Piow's citizenship, they found that they could not do it by law. So Jayakumar introduced a special law where if you are away from Singapore for more than 10 years and failed to have your passport renewed, they can take it away. Its known in the the legal fraternity as the "Tan Wah Piow law". That law has since been repealed because some people did not want their "loved one" caught in a limbo.

You need to keep up with progress. Always seek the truth. As I said before this country belongs to the people of Singapore and not to the PAP. They need to prove that you are a threat to Singapore national security because they can do anything. No one in the world can force me to renounce my citizenship from a country where I was born in, schooled in, raised in, with family and relatives still in it and where I have paid my dues including NS and taxes.

don't be stupid. that analogy doesn't even come close. if you deal with banks in an illegal manner, you'll be arrested and face jail time. at least in the case of sg dual citizenship, if you get caught, they will let you go but they will force you to renounce on the spot. it's like getting caught with a naked mistress with your pants down by your wife, and she immediately sues for divorce.

 

[scroobal]

Re: Dual Citizenship, and the Global Trend

This is a side issue. A banker friend told me that banks detect extra baking relationship of their SME customers by noticing the days for depositing funds. If funds are deposited on certain days, they know that deposits go to other banks on other days. He also told me no matter how attractive terms are, any sane business man will apportion his risk.

Specifically, I agree with you regarding businessmen dealing with more than one bank. May I add, the time to deal with a banker (and to raise financing) is when you or your business does not need the banker (and the financing). Accordingly, when you do not need any additional room for your business line of credit, seek approval for it, or better still, when they offer it to you, gladly accept it (and their free meals and drinks, and send them a Thank You card to thank them profusely), because when you need it, it may not be there.

 

[neddy]

When i arrived, everyone telling me - it got to be honda or toyota car. After i reserach, i brought a Dodge Grand Caravan (Amercan). I look like an out cast ha ha ha. However, the reasons behind - you buy Jap cars = higher price = higher resale price but if you buy local car = lower price = lower resale value. My second car, is a chryer Aspen 5.7L oil guzzler - others think i am crazy . But me think, in rough road and winter country (5 months), better be safe than sorry. The price of car and fuel can be written off as I run my own biz. At the end of the day, do your SWOT - u will make the right decision for yourself.

Take every opinion and think if it is suitable for you.

If you can take the big 3 safety and reliability record, why not.
The Jap carmakers are serious about producing cars for US conditions.

 

[Charlie9]

Re: Banking

This is a side issue. A banker friend told me that banks detect extra baking relationship of their SME customers by noticing the days for depositing funds. If funds are deposited on certain days, they know that deposits go to other banks on other days. He also told me no matter how attractive terms are, any sane business man will apportion his risk.

Pardon for digressing from the main topic of dual citizenship.

In the past, I have heard of the so called "exclusive banking" clause. However, in the insolvency community or rather in past years' seminars, we have discussed about "setting up a war chest", that is to deposit funds with some other financial institution, to defend or initiate legal proceedings against the primary financial institution.

With respect to your matter regarding "the days for depositing funds", I believe that it is important to ensure that deposits are made daily to theprimary financial institution, but slowly increase the daily deposits to the secondary financial institution.

 

[scroobal]

Re: Banking

I know a businessman whose has 3 mortgages from 3 properties from 3 different banks and his outstanding in each are a few thousand. Basically he has couple of million line commitment for emergency.

Nestle the Swiss giant had an untouched multimillion dollar line commitment from a major bank for 25 years that was not touched until the current crisis when the money market dried up. The art of risk management whether it is passport, citizenship or loans.

Pardon for digressing from the main topic of dual citizenship.

In the past, I have heard of the so called "exclusive banking" clause. However, in the insolvency community or rather in past years' seminars, we have discussed about "setting up a war chest", that is to deposit funds with some other financial institution, to defend or initiate legal proceedings against the primary financial institution.

With respect to your matter regarding "the days for depositing funds", I believe that it is important to ensure that deposits are made daily to theprimary financial institution, but slowly increase the daily deposits to the secondary financial institution.

 

[eatshitndie]

Thats what I am trying to tell you. There is no such law in Singapore where it forbids you holding more than one citizenship. Australia until 2004 actually had it.

Here is the online laws of singapore. http://statutes.agc.gov.sg/
Help yourself.

We should not propogate myths that are have no clue about. This whole thread is about dispelling this rubbish.

oh yeah? this is where you are totally exposed as lacking in legal knowledge. just throwing me an incomplete set of statutes without the sg constitution doesn't tell anyone the facts. do you think you can fool folks here simply by showing a link?

in the sg constitution, part x specifically addresses citizenship. there are 22 articles in part x on citizenship matters.

article 128 addresses renunciation of citizenship.
"—(1) Any citizen of Singapore of or over the age of 21 years and of sound mind who is also or is about to become a citizen of another country may renounce his citizenship of Singapore by declaration registered by the Government, and shall upon such registration cease to be a citizen of Singapore."

article 129 addresses deprivation of citizenship.
"(5) The Government may, by order, deprive of his citizenship any person who is a citizen of Singapore by naturalisation if the Government is satisfied that he has been ordinarily resident in foreign countries for a continuous period of 5 years and during that period has neither —

(a) been at any time in the service of Singapore or of an international organisation of which the Government was a member; nor

(b) registered annually at a consulate of Singapore his intention to retain his citizenship."

article 130 addresses deprivation of citizenship of child of person losing citizenship.
"Where a person has —

(a) renounced his citizenship; or

(b) been deprived of his citizenship under Article 129 (2) (a) or 134 (1) (a),

the Government may, by order, deprive of his citizenship any child of that person under the age of 21 years who has been registered as a citizen of Singapore pursuant to this Constitution and was so registered as being the child of that person or of that person"s wife or husband."

article 131 addresses general provisions as to loss of citizenship.
"Renunciation or deprivation of citizenship of Singapore shall not discharge a person from liability in respect of anything done or omitted to be done before he ceased to be a citizen of Singapore."

article 134 addresses deprivation of citizenship on acquisition of foreign citizenship.
"—(1) The Government may, by order, deprive a citizen of Singapore of his citizenship if the Government is satisfied that —

(a) he has, while of or over the age of 18 years, at any time after 6th April 1960 acquired by registration, naturalisation or other voluntary and formal act (other than marriage) the citizenship of any country outside Singapore or having so acquired such citizenship before the age of 18 years continues to retain it after that age; or

(b) the citizen, being a woman who is a citizen of Singapore by registration under Article 123 (2), has acquired the citizenship of any country outside Singapore by virtue of her marriage to a person who is not a citizen of Singapore.

(2) Where the Government has made an order under this Article depriving a citizen of Singapore of his citizenship, he shall cease to be a citizen with effect from the date of the order."

article 135 addresses the deprivation of citizenship on exercise of rights of foreign nationals, etc.
"—(1) The Government may, by order, deprive a citizen of Singapore of his citizenship if the Government is satisfied that —

(a) he has, while of or over the age of 18 years, at any time after 6th April 1960 voluntarily claimed and exercised any rights (other than any rights in connection with the use of a passport) available to him under the law of any country outside Singapore being rights accorded exclusively to the citizens or nationals of that country;

(b) he has, while of or over the age of 18 years, at any time after 6th April 1960 applied to the authorities of a place outside Singapore for the issue or renewal of a passport or used a passport issued by such authorities as a travel document; or

(c) he is of or over the age of 18 years and has, whether before or after attaining the age of 18 years, been ordinarily resident outside Singapore for a continuous period of 10 years (including any period of residence outside Singapore before 2nd January 1986) and has not at any time —

(i) during that period or thereafter entered Singapore by virtue of a certificate of status or travel document issued by the competent authorities of Singapore; or

(ii) during that period been in the service of the Government or of an international organisation of which Singapore is a member or of such other body or organisation as the President may, by notification in the Gazette, designate.

(2) For the purposes of clause (1) (a), the exercise of a vote in any political election in a place outside Singapore shall be deemed to be the voluntary claim and exercise of a right available under the law of that place.

(3) Where the Government has made an order under this Article depriving a citizen of Singapore of his citizenship, he shall cease to be a citizen with effect from the date of the order."