Defending our Nation's Cover Values

[Ramseth]

Meng Seng has said it very well, cover values. In army, if you value your own life, take cover!

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

Eh? Constitution also say got right of assembly also, but why never see u organise big protests like the one you join in HK?

Like my BMT corporal say last time in NS, "People call u eat shit, u eat shit issit?"

Same applies here.

You are barking up the wrong tree Bro.

The Constitution says got right of assembly and it is the government of the day that should uphold the Constitution! Why would you ask an individual like me to do it? Strange!

And we all know, PAP Government has not upheld the spirit of the Constitution, as well as our National Pledge and National Flag! You should be questioning PAP instead of me!

Well, in a way, SDP has done its part in pushing the limit, forcing PAP government to at least allow Protest in Hong Lim Park. I have taken part and even be part of those who organize the Minibond Protest. You don't just go for protest for the sake of protest. As far as I am concerned, I have done my part, did you or your party WP?

Goh Meng Seng

 

[scroobal]

You are absolutely right. One does not go to a protest for the sake of it.

Not many people understand the value of protest in the public arena. Though some have argued that it is illegal and therefore should not be encouraged, they fail to see the point that protest are necessary to put across a clear message when other means become difficult.

If a respected individual with a worthy cause organised a protest anywhere in Singapore and this person and the cause resonates with the people, people will turn up in droves. I have no doubt about it.

Obviously if culture has a history like HK, so much the better.

The Govt knows this and has recently started to operate a valve mechanism. Chee and SDP had much to contribute in this space. They now allow Hong Lim Park and it is quite encouraging.

The issue that some people can't get around their head is the participation of an individual in a protest. Merely participating does not make one a hero nor does not participating make someone less political or patriotic.

When SDP did parliament house and prior to that the Hong Lim protest, majority of people were enthusiatic and keen to see how the Govt behaves and reacts and not necessarily share the same concerns with SDP or their cause. I am sure there were very keen SDP supporters for the cause but the majority were more attendent to how far this govt will go or not go. What SDP did was however groundbreaking and I am pretty sure that the minibonds gathering would not have occurred without the SDP's role in the earlier 2 protest.

ps. interestingly many people thought the Police in both cases operated in a less than a professional manner. They seemed lost, constantly waiting for instructions and the ring a ring a roses with Ms Chee was hilarious.

In advanced nations, the Police watch from afar or form a line. Once the decision is made to disperse or apprehend, its a straightforward. There is no exchange of words, quoting the law etc. The same thing happenned in the 1980s when a christian sect protested at Far East. Apparently Malay muslim youth threatened the Police that they will fight them if they dragged the women and they panicked. I think the Div Commander lost his job.

You are barking up the wrong tree Bro.

You don't just go for protest for the sake of protest. As far as I am concerned, I have done my part, did you or your party WP?

Goh Meng Seng

 

[soh1973]

It has been a long time since I came into the coffeeshop. I must say, very little has changed since the delphi days.

I must agree with Goh Meng Seng. I am 36 this year and similar to many average Singaporeans, I am frustrated with the influx of FTs who turns out to be more FLs (Foreign Liabilities) then FTs (Foreign Talents). I am also frustrated with how the newer generation of PAP leaders seem so detached from the grassroots. How our leaders seems to have no direction and how often they focus on excuses.

However, I am really disappointed when I read in "Todays" MM Lee's response to what I view is a rallying call for the average Singaporeans and politicians alike to relook at the pledge. There seems to be an over-reaction by MM Lee in trying to put down this rallying call by viewing it as a potential challenge to how the PAP is currently ruling this country.

On one hand, I can fully understand why MM Lee's reaction as he will need to nip any challenges in the bud before it becomes a larger issue. However, on the other hand, I am sorely disappointed that at the end of the day, all the country's pledge meant nothing.

My 4 year old daughter is now in nursery. She is being taught to recite the pledge in both mandarin and english and so far she has memorised it very well. However, I question the rationale behind memorising the pledge now especially after MM Lee's speech in parliament.

I am against many of our ruling party's policies and have acted in accordance to my conscience by my vote for the opposition. My wife on the contrary voted for the ruling party because her rationale is "can we afford to let some opposition party to try when they do not have the track record?" Naturally we argued quite intensely over this issue but then finally decided it is not worth arguing. We agree to disagree.

When we are in the army, we are constantly brainwashed into believing "Duty, Honour, Country" is everything. (Yes, I am one of those ocifer whom many of the forumers here hates). We were brainwashed to the extent that we really meant what we said when we recite the "...with our lives" portion. How sad when all those brainwashing meant for nothing by a simple speech by our MM Lee.

After many years in the work force, I became very disillusioned. ICT is merely something I have to pay for having that rifle and 2 grenades in between my groin. So my mentality is just take it and pay your dues. Then around 5 years back, MINDEF conducted a 1-1 interview where they got these young NSF clerks to call us up and meet us in civilian for interviews. One of the question in that thick stack of questionnaire was "will you defend singapore if war comes."

I remembered my response. I said "If I can get my family out in time, I will not fight" Then the counter question by the clerk was why? My response was "Why should I fight for a country that treats its citizen as mere pawns and runs the country like a company where a selected few are allowed to call out the shots? Why should I fight for ideals that are not by the people, but rather for a selected and privileged few?"

I must qualify my answers then. At that time, I was very into sammyboy coffeeshop and hence my response were very influenced.

Then after a few years, came the period of time where Malaysian politicians were threatening to cut off our water supply. Surprisingly, when my peers and me chatted about these issue, the general concensus was if it is time to fight, we will fight for the nation's survival and that is a legitimate ground for fighting to retain our way of life. A lot of you may not believe this, but the patroitism at that time amongst my peers (most of us are fat and unfit reservist and likely to be used as cannon fodders to waste the enemies' ammo) was intense. Perhaps all those years of brainwashing did work subconsciously after all.

However, after MM Lee's speech in parliament, perhaps all these patriotism will be eliminated. After all, if the main driver behind modern Singapore do not even believe fully in the country's pledge, then do we have a country in the first place?

I have always believed home is where we want to make it to be. Citizenship is merely a piece of paper. Your family is what makes a home. I do agree with Sam that Singapore do not have a culture. However, we are comfortable with it and that is where we make home to be.

In the past, I have always wanted to migrate because I fell in love with the Australian outbacks. However, now after seeing my kids play with their grandmoms and the joy in the grandparents eyes when playing with them, I shifted my point of view and decided that perhaps it is not so bad staying in Singapore as the family is here.

However, I will hate to disappoint my kids if they ask me this question. "Dad, do we really mean what we say when we recite the pledge?"

It is a sad situation. Very few countries in the world have seen their leaders openly come out and say that the pledge is merely a guideline and not a belief that we should work towards. And that we should ignore any rallying calls.

It is especially disappointing when it came from a man who wept in front of public TV because what he truly believed in did not materialise.

Can we now blame the "Quitters" for a lack of identify?

Can we now ask the finger that points at others to look at the other 4 fingers that pointed back to themselves?

It is a sad speech to hear, especially from the man who believed so much in his ideals and wept when it didn't materialise.

Have a good week ahead.

 

[Ramseth]

You don't just go for protest for the sake of protest. As far as I am concerned, I have done my part, did you or your party WP?

Exactly. WP didn't protest because it doesn't protest for the sake of protest. Doesn't mean it won't protest when it finds something the majority of the party finds worth protesting against. You've done "your part" protesting against what you deem worth protesting against. Doesn't mean others must agree with you, doesn't mean others must look for something to protest against for the sake of proving to do "their part".

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

Exactly. WP didn't protest because it doesn't protest for the sake of protest. Doesn't mean it won't protest when it finds something the majority of the party finds worth protesting against. You've done "your part" protesting against what you deem worth protesting against. Doesn't mean others must agree with you, doesn't mean others must look for something to protest against for the sake of proving to do "their part".

Ramseth,

That's fine with me actually, but then, why would your party member expect others to protest then? I mean, since they believe your party's stand that there is nothing worth protesting, then why ask others to protest?

Goh Meng Seng

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

Dear Soh1973,

Thank you for your response. You have definitely struck a cord in me.

I have always maintained a very positive outlook to reservist training, even though my logistic unit is not something that anyone would get excited about "fighting". For every reservist training, it is always difficult to convince the need of such army training to my men where they could be more "productive" somewhere else.

Low Morale is the greatest problem for an army, even if it is a logistic battalion. And it seems that over the years, the morale is getting lower and lower. More and more people are asking for deferment and most of the reasons are work related. The most important underlining reason is the FEAR of losing the job to someone else, especially FT.

But even then, we could still maintain basic discipline and morale by giving the basic fundamental reason of the need of having an operational ready army. This is our home land and we are determined to protect it with our own blood. Even though the huge influx of FT have affected jobs and indirectly created a morale problem, we still have a reason to tell our soldiers we are fighting to protect our way of life.

But the recent outburst of MM Lee as well as some of the PAP ministers have raised eyebrows. The so call "Common Space" provided by our National Pledge and Flag has suddenly become some "unrealistic Highfalutin ideals" only!

I am going back for a one month high key reservist training. I seriously doubt that I have any reasons left to give my men for motivation talk. The only pessimistic talk would be, do it good, do it fast and F off early back home.

Goh Meng Seng

 

[boring]

bro soh, sorry no offend, would just like to say ur wife a typical sinkes women who vote pappies blindly, i heard many so call pap voter their reason gave is wat ur wife gave, tis bunch of people bascially never give themselves a choice as well as other. tell ur wife, since pap already so fuck type, why don't give other parties the chance, if don't give them chance how to let them prove. in life we can only have apportunity to prove ourselves when people give u the chance. just like u are fresh for a job u will never have the job if excuse from employer is u don't have track record!

 

[boring]

Dear Soh1973,

Thank you for your response. You have definitely struck a cord in me.

I have always maintained a very positive outlook to reservist training, even though my logistic unit is not something that anyone would get excited about "fighting". For every reservist training, it is always difficult to convince the need of such army training to my men where they could be more "productive" somewhere else.

Low Morale is the greatest problem for an army, even if it is a logistic battalion. And it seems that over the years, the morale is getting lower and lower. More and more people are asking for deferment and most of the reasons are work related. The most important underlining reason is the FEAR of losing the job to someone else, especially FT.

But even then, we could still maintain basic discipline and morale by giving the basic fundamental reason of the need of having an operational ready army. This is our home land and we are determined to protect it with our own blood. Even though the huge influx of FT have affected jobs and indirectly created a morale problem, we still have a reason to tell our soldiers we are fighting to protect our way of life.

But the recent outburst of MM Lee as well as some of the PAP ministers have raised eyebrows. The so call "Common Space" provided by our National Pledge and Flag has suddenly become some "unrealistic Highfalutin ideals" only!

I am going back for a one month high key reservist training. I seriously doubt that I have any reasons left to give my men for motivation talk. The only pessimistic talk would be, do it good, do it fast and F off early back home.

Goh Meng Seng

u look so unfit still sent u oversea training, waste tax payer money. train hard and give the people here opposition also got ironmen, if not the teo jiby luck always show off how fit he is, ...

 

[besotted]

新加坡人就是这样，你的生活很苦吗？

Stop whining lah

You and I live in the same place, under the same government, under the same laws, under the same business conditions

I don't have very high education but I also make it, why you can't

My kopi kaki doesn't even have O levels but he has decent business

What I hate most is the young grads who despite having had university education keep asking for govt help, like the MAS to subsidise wages so they can go work for loser bank like Citibank, so bloody shameless

 

[scroobal]

Your sincere post I suspect reflects the views of many Singaporeans who are in their midst of their career and family life.

Will share couple of points.

1) Many of us have treated reservist without realising it as the last bastion of comradeship and a sense of belonging as all male Singaporeans went thru the same NS journey. However the country being central to NS has started to dissipate when foreigners became an issue and the link between country and NS is fast disappearing. The view is moving from fighting for the country to fighting for the people that we know and grew up with.

2) World is fast becoming global. One no longer can take a compass reference point in Singapore and hope for the best. Suggest you re-look at opportunities so that your kids and their kids have the best possible chance to have the very best without being constrained by borders. Its does not mean that you have to forsake Singapore. Singapore will continue to be an emotional marker for all the right reasons even if you are in the Silicon Valley and the kids are enroute to a greater future.

3) Be more discerning and seek out the facts. I can tell you that virtually every child of an MP, Admin Service staff, and the elite now have their tertiary education in a 1st world country. These same people also have a lifeline to a 1st world nation. Things like this are very easily arranged. All you have to do is work abroad for period of time to seek.

4) Take that speech by the old man as a clear indication that things will never remain the same. In 1980, when the first specific racial policy was introduced covering quotas for HDB flats, followed by SAP schools and GRC, the writing was already on the wall. Thats 19 years ago. Many well heeled and well educated non-chinese got the message that nationhood was no longer on the critical path and began to act for the future. The Malays however are divided as this is their land. The Chinese Singaporeans only saw reality when the doors were opened to foreigners in a large way in the late 1990s. It struck hard when foreign Indians started to take up MNC roles, could speak and write much better, highly numerate and had 1st world tertiary qualifications. There is only so much vacancies available in GLCs to provide cover. In early 1990s, PSC dropped the citizenship requirement for consideration to the elite Admin Service. Overtime, Citizenship rules no longer apply across the civil service except for the SAF and the Intelligence Service.

All these will tell you that your family and friends come first. Its will also tell you that Singapore is not your backyard but the world is. Country become an administrative archive to retrieve your personal records such as your birth certificate, schools certs and a roadhouse for laksa, kway teow and Koh Loh Mee.

Its a path that old man and the PAP has taken. Its an easy path when only economic indicators are needed. Its a legacy that old man will regret. Only last year did he reveal that one of his grandson was encouraging another not to take a OMS scholarship to avoid getting tied down in Singapore. Truly sad to see a man that built this country with blood sweat and tears for the first 25 years only to start tearing it down for the next 25 years.

I have always believed home is where we want to make it to be. Citizenship is merely a piece of paper. Your family is what makes a home. I do agree with Sam that Singapore do not have a culture. However, we are comfortable with it and that is where we make home to be.

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

新加坡人就是这样，你的生活很苦吗？

Stop whining lah

You and I live in the same place, under the same government, under the same laws, under the same business conditions

I don't have very high education but I also make it, why you can't

My kopi kaki doesn't even have O levels but he has decent business

What I hate most is the young grads who despite having had university education keep asking for govt help, like the MAS to subsidise wages so they can go work for loser bank like Citibank, so bloody shameless

If material well being or tangible monetary achievement is all you care about, that's fine with me. Anyone could well stay in Communist China and achieve material or monetary success.... Even more opportunities for such success than Singapore I guess.

Either way, better to move out of overcrowded Singapore.

Goh Meng Seng

 

[Ramseth]

If material well being or tangible monetary achievement is all you care about, that's fine with me. Anyone could well stay in Communist China and achieve material or monetary success.... Even more opportunities for such success than Singapore I guess.

Either way, better to move out of overcrowded Singapore.

Contradictory views from you. First you say, let's join opposition or at least support opposition for the sake of the nation. Then you say, it's better to move out of Singapore. In either case, strange views to be coming from a SAP beneficiary and a SAF captain.

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

All these will tell you that your family and friends come first. Its will also tell you that Singapore is not your backyard but the world is. Country become an administrative archive to retrieve your personal records such as your birth certificate, schools certs and a roadhouse for laksa, kway teow and Koh Loh Mee.

Its a path that old man and the PAP has taken. Its an easy path when only economic indicators are needed. Its a legacy that old man will regret. Only last year did he reveal that one of his grandson was encouraging another not to take a OMS scholarship to avoid getting tied down in Singapore. Truly sad to see a man that built this country with blood sweat and tears for the first 25 years only to start tearing it down for the next 25 years.

Dear Scroobal,

Way back in 1997 right after the elections, I have written an article on this one.

I am not that pessimistic although I could see where PAP is getting us into. My stand back then and even now is that for our family and friends, either we just just shut up, make enough money and get the hell out of Singapore by migrating to somewhere more promising even though we would be second class residents there, or we stay and fight the battle to change the situation in Singapore.

In 2001, I made the choice to give the fight a chance, a real chance by joining WP under LTK. I carried through my choice and promise to fight in GE 2006.

Right after GE 2006, I was a bit disillusioned but I guess voters deserved what they voted for. I was seriously contemplating to leave the scene altogether after I left WP and prepare for the second option that I have stated for myself way back in 1997.

But with encouragement from all quarters, be it political allies and supporters, I have given myself another mission, to help Singapore opposition party like NSP to progress. This would mean spending another 5 years or so but heck, at least I don't get a boring life in return.

Leaving is a relative easy choice than staying to fight, especially so when you have to face all sorts of funny people with animosity from some dark corners. Some people still have such stigma about "loyalty" and would treat you instead of the common foe who monopolize power as "enemy number one" when you left them. I am not the only one who faces such treatment; many other people who have left face the same treatment. With such political scene, it really wonders whether it is worthy to carry on the fight that is necessary for the betterment of Singaporeans as a whole.

After all, as you have said, the world is our backyard and nobody would know whether we will ultimately end up in some other places of this world in our later life.

But still, I decided to stay on, for all those supporters of mine who have given me great encouragement. Just for one more fight to see it through.

I do hope that those who plan to move on to other greener pastures, would give Singapore a second chance. The time is near when Post-LKY era is pretty eminent. Ironically, as you have said, Singapore has made it partly due to LKY, but many people also view LKY as the hindrance for our progress to the future.

Faith, is the only thing that drive me on right now. Faith could either turn out well or just turn us belly up. I would just do it one more time and I guess I could just safely said that I have tried my best and I have no regret at the end of my life.

Goh Meng Seng

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

Contradictory views from you. First you say, let's join opposition or at least support opposition for the sake of the nation. Then you say, it's better to move out of Singapore. In either case, strange views to be coming from a SAP beneficiary and a SAF captain.

There are just too many options for people in Singapore and just like PAP, we have to be realistic.

Moving out of Singapore is and will always be an option for Singaporeans. It is just that now, there is one more good reason for Singaporeans to do so after MM Lee made his view clear.

Singapore is no longer a Nation so to speak, just an Inc. which will only deal with "realistic economic figures" which is equivalent to "Profit and Loss". Thus, Singaporeans who have pledge loyalty to a Nation called Singapore has their faith misplaced for all these years, me included. So if this is just an Inc, then we should all have the freedom of resign from this one big Inc to seek our dream land that we could identify as a Nation.

I guess PAP will always view having Opposition in parliament is an UNREALISTIC Highfalutin idea as well, don't you think so? More so as to get PAP replaced as ruling party!

I will only fight and defend a Nation with the Core Values that I could identify with, not one that have some "unrealistic highfalutin idealss" masquerade as some "aspirations" of hypocritical sorts. If Singaporeans who have decided to stay back to fight on are bold to prove PAP wrong during next elections in voting in more opposition party members, then this is a Nation built with our set of Core Values worth fighting for. Else, I think there isn't a need to keep banging our heads on the wall.

Goh Meng Seng

 

[scroobal]

Will relate a conversation with one of the Marxist Conspiracy detainees who migrated. When I asked this person how long will it take to acquire citizenship in his new country, the reaction was immediate and I realised that my comment was offensive.

I was told in no uncertain terms that migration and being a Singaporean are 2 separate and different things. I heard that comment before but it tended to be few and infrequent.

Migration in the "new world context" is similar to moving to a new neighbourhood to grasp at opportunities for yourself and kids. It need not be a zero sum game.

ps. you probably know this but Civil Servive had a formal module on Inc and it was very clear that it will be run along these lines.

There are just too many options for people in Singapore and just like PAP, we have to be realistic.

Moving out of Singapore is and will always be an option for Singaporeans. It is just that now, there is one more good reason for Singaporeans to do so after MM Lee made his view clear.

Singapore is no longer a Nation so to speak, just an Inc. which will only deal with "realistic economic figures" which is equivalent to "Profit and Loss". Thus, Singaporeans who have pledge loyalty to a Nation called Singapore has their faith misplaced for all these years, me included. So if this is just an Inc, then we should all have the freedom of resign from this one big Inc to seek our dream land that we could identify as a Nation.

I guess PAP will always view having Opposition in parliament is an UNREALISTIC Highfalutin idea as well, don't you think so? More so as to get PAP replaced as ruling party!

I will only fight and defend a Nation with the Core Values that I could identify with, not one that have some "unrealistic highfalutin idealss" masquerade as some "aspirations" of hypocritical sorts. If Singaporeans who have decided to stay back to fight on are bold to prove PAP wrong during next elections in voting in more opposition party members, then this is a Nation built with our set of Core Values worth fighting for. Else, I think there isn't a need to keep banging our heads on the wall.

Goh Meng Seng

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

I am sorry, I shouldn't mention this. There are no WP members in internet forums, even if there are, they are not. They will just temporarily lose their party membership when they were writing in forums like this one. Else, they will lose it forever.

Goh Meng Seng

Wow, now I have WP "membership".

GMS, time to just STFU and quit while u can.

Then maybe someday you might lose the political sideshow freak image that you have so meticulously nurtured in useless forums like these.

 

[TeeKee]

isn't $$$$$ the only core value of MIWs?

 

[Ramseth]

I am sorry, I shouldn't mention this. There are no WP members in internet forums, even if there are, they are not. They will just temporarily lose their party membership when they were writing in forums like this one. Else, they will lose it forever.

What do you mean by "even if there are, there are not"?

What do you mean by "temporarily lose their party membership"?

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

What do you mean by "even if there are, there are not"?

What do you mean by "temporarily lose their party membership"?

HAHA!

Goh Meng Seng