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CSJ ‘exposed the pretensions of PAP’ – CALD Chairman
- Thread starter yellowarse
- Start date
Good rebuttal. Democracy is not vested simply in the act of voting. There is such a thing called "tyranny of the majority".
Frankly I might do the same, but perhaps for different reasons. From anecdotal instances and observations, I thought the minimum wage idea stinks and would be tempted to vote against them for the very reason that those it seeks to help would not be better off. The issue is more systematic, and wage reforms need to be made in conjunction with among others, labour and retirement savings reforms. For good or worse, the perspectives from narrowly focused NGOs, left-leaning liberals and political dissidents make for a potent mixture of personalities leading to groupthink, as did our favourite People's Action Party.
Acting with your heart, without thinking of the implications can lead to bad decisions in life.
You're right: Minimum wage will never work in isolation. If you read CSJ's expositions on minimum wage, you'd note that he's always asserted that for a minimum wage policy to be effective, it will have to be implemented in tandem with labour reforms such as anti-discriminative employment legislation and the provision of a social safety net.
Sounds like you are following their developments quite closely. To be sure on a fine weekday evening I will not find myself picking up the writings of Dr Chee to examine its footnotes. Rightly or wrongly (the latter it seems) I have associated SDP with an unconditional support for minimum wage, and it's unlikely I am alone with this impression. Along with how SDP acquired the anti-industry/anti-manufacturing tag.
mojito said:
That is why there is such a thing as
minority protection ( namely the two-thirds super-majority in parliament) but that again is rendered non-effective by the GRC scheme. So the only way to break the tyranny of the majority is to be the majority. We have entered the end game, not many combinations of moves left.
Fascist Leader Is Like MLM Marketing
Fascism is always tempting when you hear things that is sweet to the ears with the false hope of owning an unseen promise of withholding the earth resources for one's selfish consumption and to enslave the common good with an individual dream of Hitler. People love to hear it - the supreme race ! For the fatherland ! And the BS reasons that give NS the license to enslave peasants for their own good. While you are dying and fighting for the 'common good', they reap the benefit of melting gold and transporting it into their secret dens. That's Hitler.
Democracy is not the rule of the majority ? That's Athenian. Let's say a goat goes to meet a party of three predators like a fox, a wolf and a bear. The fox is a lesser threat but he is still a meat eater himself too. What will they answer when the goat asks, "What's for our breakfast ?" The rule of the mob !
A willful majority doesn't mean they are right and that their solutions are fair. The minority has to be protected. No one should benefit from another's weakness or misadventure. The fraternity counts too. No one should be left behind ! If any wolf or bear should suggest to eat the goat, I will rather shoot the two and frighten the fox for learning their ways.
But, will I be contented with just the two lesser critters ? How about protecting my fort with a reliable defense ? Do I still need the bear and the wolf ? Can I arm a goat instead ? Will it flee upon hearing a lion's roar ? I still need brave men. A brave kungfu panda ?
Fascism - a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
Fascism is always tempting when you hear things that is sweet to the ears with the false hope of owning an unseen promise of withholding the earth resources for one's selfish consumption and to enslave the common good with an individual dream of Hitler. People love to hear it - the supreme race ! For the fatherland ! And the BS reasons that give NS the license to enslave peasants for their own good. While you are dying and fighting for the 'common good', they reap the benefit of melting gold and transporting it into their secret dens. That's Hitler.
Democracy is not the rule of the majority ? That's Athenian. Let's say a goat goes to meet a party of three predators like a fox, a wolf and a bear. The fox is a lesser threat but he is still a meat eater himself too. What will they answer when the goat asks, "What's for our breakfast ?" The rule of the mob !
A willful majority doesn't mean they are right and that their solutions are fair. The minority has to be protected. No one should benefit from another's weakness or misadventure. The fraternity counts too. No one should be left behind ! If any wolf or bear should suggest to eat the goat, I will rather shoot the two and frighten the fox for learning their ways.
But, will I be contented with just the two lesser critters ? How about protecting my fort with a reliable defense ? Do I still need the bear and the wolf ? Can I arm a goat instead ? Will it flee upon hearing a lion's roar ? I still need brave men. A brave kungfu panda ?
Fascism - a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
I would venture to ask why the civil disobedience has stopped. The last was a good 2-3 years ago in 2009. No more jails. It's either that even he knew he was wrong, while ironically people are hailing those deeds made him heroic. Or now he is in wrong mode, which begs the question as to why he doesn't get back to being right. Or it's to meet an agenda.
It is interesting to consider a civil movement of 2000 (starting with Raffles Place sagas) end in 2002, take a break, restart in 2006, end in 2009 given that his political career was FROM 1992 TO 2011 and given ALL OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL. What are all the gaps? Gandhi never stopped in that manner and I would say if he had done the same by 2006 the PAP would have been more finished and lost on what to do with him.
It is interesting to consider a civil movement of 2000 (starting with Raffles Place sagas) end in 2002, take a break, restart in 2006, end in 2009 given that his political career was FROM 1992 TO 2011 and given ALL OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL. What are all the gaps? Gandhi never stopped in that manner and I would say if he had done the same by 2006 the PAP would have been more finished and lost on what to do with him.
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Interesting observation, but I have no answers. Except to say that perhaps Chee regards Old Man as his nemesis, and as the latter's date of expiry is near, Chee probably has lost his "casus belli" momentum, so to speak. In a way, if this is true, it was personalised in the Old man or the demonic values he epitomised and that kind of detracts from the credit of Chee. To Old Man, it definitely was a personal vendetta and a visceral one.
It is obvious that you have not been examining Dr Chee's writings then.
A tag unfairly acquired through association with the much maligned and misunderstood Tan Jee Say Economic Regeneration Plan. Ironically, TJS is no longer with the SDP.
A tag unfairly acquired through association with the much maligned and misunderstood Tan Jee Say Economic Regeneration Plan. Ironically, TJS is no longer with the SDP.
The so-called Ghandi civil disobedience and indpendent movement was just for his personal rage against being classified colored Aryan and political power to soothe that rage. The British were going to leave India anyway, they just needed more time for transition for the good of India. The British has a sense of responsibility in leaving and handing over smoothly as witnessed in so many colonies and dominions, including Singapore and Malaysia. The Ghandi movement hastened the British leaving and left the Indian subcontinent 50 years backward behind the world when it was a leading world trading power under British rule. Now it's split into four countries bickering with each other and exporting cheap laborers to others. That's the achievement of Ghandi.
It is easy to conclude that Chee or SDP failures is due to their confrontational approach but I think this is only to a certain extent true. Parties other than SDP were "more WP" but like SDP did not win any seat either. NSP fielded more candidates than WP and SPP even lost an incumbent seat and a veteran in BTP got the same votes as some "pretty babe" in Marine Parade.
Goodwill is slowly built up. It is only that due to combination of various circumstances WP got there first.
Goodwill is slowly built up. It is only that due to combination of various circumstances WP got there first.
Ordinary people won't. I am nothing but ordinary.
Believe it or not, I was following the GE closely enough to distinguish SDP's manifesto from his whatchamacallit plan. Share your sentiments bro, but the tag was acquired anyway. Hope you realize how difficult it is to convince someone otherwise when biases are already formed.
Glad you're aware that you're biased. I don't normally try to fight against someone's biases or prejudices. I present what I know and leave it to them to accept or reject it.
Thank you. I did not intend to refer to my own bias, but you may be right. Once impression has formed, it takes a lot more effort to shake it off. Fortunately Singaporeans have short memories.
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Must be a uniquely Singaporean phenomenon whereby the tyranny of the majority is upheld by a bunch of people that was never even consulted to begin with.
My bad, quoted you without referencing.
Those are the rules of the game. Executive power of the government to act within reasonable limits. It may appear irresponsible or incompetent for a government to call a referendum on everything. The acceptable 'limits' are shaped by perception and experience, and for a generation that benefited from the incumbent's economic programs, the threshold of tolerance appears to still be high.
Certainly, I don't want or need a referendum over every new ERP gantry the government intends to build. I was taking a dig at the point one of our friends here was making, which can be summed up most aptly in Singlish as "can vote means got democracy". That's nonsense, to be sure - but particularly so in sunny island Singapura when up until the last elections, most people didn't even have the opportunity to go to the ballot box, much less form an opinion about legislature changes.
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