Crumbling of Singapore?

[Thick Face Black Heart]

Some people have suggested leongsam is deliberately saying opposite of what he means. That's not true. Leongsam does truly believe much of what he has written.

His motive however is not to be objective and "balanced" in his debate, but to rile and inflame emotions by presenting his arguments in a certain fashion. There are many facets that Leongsam believes in wrong with PAP but they are suppressed for the sake of argument.

The word for this is "yanking the chain". He was not like this in the early delphi days (2001,2002, etc). But later on he learnt to do this from people like Scroobal and a few other nicks (in the old SBF) that were obviously very insightful writers, but also very fond of taking on certain debating styles in order to galvanize a discussion, make people sit up, make people react, sometimes angrily, etc. Leongsam became a much better forum host and he learnt a great deal in that period. He realized first and foremost to keep the forum alive, you don't be a coy gentleman or fair lady and be balanced and accommodative to all and sundry. None of the vets -- papsmear, scroo, kingrant, eatshitndie, drifter, etc, are like that.

So those of you who think Leongsam is a PAP dog or whatever are wildly off the mark. By getting you to react, he is also getting you to think, and next time you meet your PAP MP doing house visit you suddenly find yourself able to articulate in a cutting, coherent, biting manner that hits at the sore points. When that happens to you, thank Leongsam.

 

[freedalas]

Tracy,

It is not in dispute that there are many more millionaires in SG now. The problem is that income gap is growing and the poor are being left behind by the same policies that allow more elites to flourish.

SG MSM do not print outright lies. What they do is firstly is just to over-play one side of the picture and downplay the other side by quoting irrelevant examples from other countries. If that doesn't work, then use categorization, framing the issue, relabelling, as a means to distraction. Common tactic: lump born and bred Singaporeans together with PRs to make the numbers in employment and housing look good.

Excellent points that stab right into the hearts of the PAP's prostitutes at SPH and Mediacorp. Forummers like Thick Face Black Heart demonstrates so much analytical power and discernment that easily put to shame what you will read in the Young PAP forum. Little wonder they are trying hard to discredit forummers by branding us as cowards posting anonymously. Anyway it's good that the PAP practises in-breeding which can only an earlier demise for them.

 

[Leongsam]

Don't compare Singapore with countries that have 10 times, 100 times the catchment area of Singapore. Whereas in these countries it is natural geography that causes the flooding, in Singapore, it is man made. The Government admits as much, choked drains, undersized canals etc and they have claimed to do something about it but honestly either the effort is not enough or the solutions are the wrong one. I really hope this idea of building a lake in the Orchard Road area to divert the water takes off. Also there is a need to understand where the flood water actually comes from. I don't think it is all from the Orchard Road area. If any comes from outside the area, this should be diverted off.

Singapore's natural geography causes flooding too. I lived through floods 10 times more widespread in the 60s before all the flood alleviation schemes were built by the PAP govt.

For more than 2 decades, flooding was not an issue thanks to the foresight and planning of the PAP.

However, because of the diplomatic spats with Malaysia in the 90s, the govt decided that Singaporeans had to be self sufficient in water and devised a plan to catch every single of drop of rainwater that falls on the Island and store it for consumption.

The current "ponding" is a result of this plan. There are a few hiccups which need to be worked on but you need to see the bigger picture. If nothing was done, Singapore could be held to ransom by its northern neighbour. The current floods are minor inconveniences in comparision.

 

[Leongsam]

How many of the Ferraris are bought by locals? Understand that the Bruneian Royalties are big customers whenever new models come into Singapore. Most Ferraris and Lamborghinis fall into a few regular hands.

Out of the 8 that are sold every month, how many are bought by locals and how many by foreigners?

 

[Leongsam]

Tracy,

It is not in dispute that there are many more millionaires in SG now. The problem is that income gap is growing and the poor are being left behind by the same policies that allow more elites to flourish.

The policies that allow the elite to flourish have never been withheld from the poor. The policies are there to be embraced by one and all, rich or poor, fat or thin, dark or white.

All my "poor" classmates are now elite or semi elite. None of them was prevented from participating in PAP policies which enabled wealth to be accumulated.

The one I have in mind at this very moment came from a family of six and his father was a bus driver for the Teh Koh Yat bus company. He studied hard and obtained his O levels and A levels and was awarded an overseas Colombo plan scholarship. He came back and worked in the ministry of National Development while he was bonded. When he finished his bond, he joined a foreign bank and became head of dealing room. He is now semi retired with millions in his bank account. He thanks the PAP govt for the scholarship and he thanks the PAP govt for bringing foreign banks into Singapore. He had no connections with the Lee family or any political ties with govt leaders. He did everything on his own.

The guy I mentioned above was academically inclined. However, I know of another poor classmate of mine who failed his O levels and was forced to strike out without any qualifications. He joined the Oil Exploration Industry which was flourishing at the time and gained in depth knowledge which enabled him to set up a company dealing with spare parts for the drilling rigs. He too is now a multi millionaire and he too credits the PAP govt and the EDB in particular for creating the opportunity that enabled him to make good despite lack of qualifications.

The PAP is an equal opportunity govt. It's up to each individual to grab a slice of the pie. Sitting back and moaning will achieve nothing.

 

[TracyTan866]

Your analogy just don't work. Those people growing our rice are poor not due to any fault of ours, whereas more and more S'poreans are poorer and poorer due to the failed policies of the PAP. So TracyTan asked the right question, if the PAP can sleep peacefully at night?

Anyone with an iota of conscience will have problem sleeping peacefully at night

 

[TracyTan866]

Tracy,

It is not in dispute that there are many more millionaires in SG now. The problem is that income gap is growing and the poor are being left behind by the same policies that allow more elites to flourish.

I agree with you. The MSN saying that there are many millionaires doesnt mean anything. Is the MSM trying to send a subliminal msg by only highlighting the rich? The discerning reader shd look ard him and question...how abt the poor in SG? that wld be a more complete and useful picture of the real situation in SG

 

[TracyTan866]

Tracy,


SG MSM do not print outright lies. What they do is firstly is just to over-play one side of the picture and downplay the other side by quoting irrelevant examples from other countries. If that doesn't work, then use categorization, framing the issue, relabelling, as a means to distraction. Common tactic: lump born and bred Singaporeans together with PRs to make the numbers in employment and housing look good.

I agree. I have noticed that too. But not telling the whole truth is equally bad. Telling an outright lie can be too obvious and can be legally detrimental. So telling partial truth is detestable for a national media. They have missed performing their moral duties to the country and citizens by trying to sway opinions with partial truths. In fact a good medium shd go beyond reporting the whole truth and do investigative reporting.

Reporting lies is criminal. Reporting partial truths is detestable.

 

[scroobal]

You probably revealed the secret formula of this forum.

One day by accident I found out that Gillian Koh who is noted for her political analytical nonsense was trying to remove a goggle entry that links her to SBF. I wrongly assumed that she was a forummer here and but could not guess who it was. It turned out that the particular google link appears on the first page of Google search and we all have staring role in it. That particular entry has been circulating around academia since the GE.

This is just a trivial example. If that SBF link had nonsense, it would not have seen light of day. People in academia are in agreement with the content thus the circulation.

Never ever judge a book by its cover, pornographic or otherwise.

Some people have suggested leongsam is deliberately saying opposite of what he means. That's not true. Leongsam does truly believe much of what he has written.

His motive however is not to be objective and "balanced" in his debate, but to rile and inflame emotions by presenting his arguments in a certain fashion. There are many facets that Leongsam believes in wrong with PAP but they are suppressed for the sake of argument.

The word for this is "yanking the chain". He was not like this in the early delphi days (2001,2002, etc). But later on he learnt to do this from people like Scroobal and a few other nicks (in the old SBF) that were obviously very insightful writers, but also very fond of taking on certain debating styles in order to galvanize a discussion, make people sit up, make people react, sometimes angrily, etc. Leongsam became a much better forum host and he learnt a great deal in that period. He realized first and foremost to keep the forum alive, you don't be a coy gentleman or fair lady and be balanced and accommodative to all and sundry. None of the vets -- papsmear, scroo, kingrant, eatshitndie, drifter, etc, are like that.

So those of you who think Leongsam is a PAP dog or whatever are wildly off the mark. By getting you to react, he is also getting you to think, and next time you meet your PAP MP doing house visit you suddenly find yourself able to articulate in a cutting, coherent, biting manner that hits at the sore points. When that happens to you, thank Leongsam.

 

[TracyTan866]

You probably revealed the secret formula of this forum.

One day by accident I found out that Gillian Koh who is noted for her political analytical nonsense was trying to remove a goggle entry that links her to SBF. I wrongly assumed that she was a forummer here and but could not guess who it was. It turned out that the particular google link appears on the first page of Google search and we all have staring role in it. That particular entry has been circulating around academia since the GE.

This is just a trivial example. If that SBF link had nonsense, it would not have seen light of day. People in academia are in agreement with the content thus the circulation.

Never ever judge a book by its cover, pornographic or otherwise.

Talking abt Gillian...sighhh...she is such a disgrace to the academia. She is so blatantly bias that her comments are not worth the sound that came out from her mouth.

Another guy who is following her footsteps is Eugene Tan.

These are the black sheeps which taints the academia

 

[TracyTan866]

You probably revealed the secret formula of this forum.

One day by accident I found out that Gillian Koh who is noted for her political analytical nonsense was trying to remove a goggle entry that links her to SBF. I wrongly assumed that she was a forummer here and but could not guess who it was. It turned out that the particular google link appears on the first page of Google search and we all have staring role in it. That particular entry has been circulating around academia since the GE.

This is just a trivial example. If that SBF link had nonsense, it would not have seen light of day. People in academia are in agreement with the content thus the circulation.

Never ever judge a book by its cover, pornographic or otherwise.

Another factor that can contribute to the crumbling of Singapore is the failure of the academia which fails to perform its rightful duties. They send the wrong signals and message to the politicans

 

[Fook Seng]

Out of the 8 that are sold every month, how many are bought by locals and how many by foreigners?

Do you know? I don't. It has been reported in the press before that the Bruneian royalties buy one or two for every model of super cars that appear in Singapore. And there are several rich Indonesian families with their kids educated and brought up in Singapore together with their wives. Over the weekends, they fly in from Jakarta to join with their families. The first generation tycoons are probably more frugal with their money but their kids when they grow up, being born into riches really know how to spend. The largest wedding parties in Singapore are held by foreigners, costing millions each. Lately rich Chinese are joining this group. Compare with these people, Singaporeans are a frugal lot. I won't be surprised that most of the super cars are bought by this group. I won't argue about Merc and BMW which have become the mainstream cars that people buy because of the weird tax regime we have in Singapore, an unusual situation to a foreigner just as no one will question why in Germany, most people drive Merc, BM and Audi.

 

[scroobal]

Firstly welcome and thank you for your comments and views. Anything that is well argued is always appreciated. Believe me you carry a lot of substance in your comments. You will not offend anyone if you disagree or carry alternative views.

Most people do recognise that the old man is certainly very intelligent with a sharp political mind. There is not doubt that he and his team built a first class country in the first 25 years in power.

The issues are his methods, his incarceration of individuals for such an extensive period, the total control of the press, the nepotism involving his family, the bankrupting of possible contenders, the manipulation of the electoral system, use of state funded stat board for political purpose and control, and believe me there are much more.

The last 25 years has been a gradual decline in terms of values, employment displacement, loss of identity as a Singaporean etc. Imagine his son getting a 12% discount on a soft launch while the rate was 5% to everyone else. If Francis Seow got the same deal, he would have charged him for corruption.

Our problem is that we keep comparing him to more corrupt countries rather than developed countries with established democractic principles.

I have to admit that I am not comfortable engaging in "hostility", be it in real life or cyberspace. I am also someone who has to account to my actions or what I have expressed or written even if it is in the anonymous world of an internet forum.

As for LKY, I'm not a fan of him. In fact, I don't have a good impression of him apart from recognising his intelligence and leadership ability based on what I've read about him (and it is not entirely from the 154th media). I don't like bullies so it is highly likely I will not like him in real life too. Regardless, I still see him as a wise and smart man, therefore I stand by my views about him unless proven otherwise.

 

[po2wq]

... By getting you to react, he is also getting you to think, and next time you meet your PAP MP doing house visit you suddenly find yourself able to articulate in a cutting, coherent, biting manner that hits at the sore points. When that happens to you, thank Leongsam.

juz make sure dat ur i's n ears dun oso start 2 twitch ...

 

[Leongsam]

Our problem is that we keep comparing him to more corrupt countries rather than developed countries with established democractic principles.

Well I don't. I benchmark my favourite govt against international standards and Singapore still comes out tops.

You can see the results for yourself at http://www.transparency.org/policy_research/surveys_indices/cpi/2010/results

Singapore is ranked number ONE alongside Denmark and New Zealand.

Unless you're going to tell me that the results are not to be trusted, that there is bias built into the method of assessment, that the assessors who rank countries are somehow beholden to the PAP, you'll have no choice but to accept the results as independent and free of any political manipulation.

 

[Leongsam]

Do you know? I don't. It has been reported in the press before that the Bruneian royalties buy one or two for every model of super cars that appear in Singapore.

OK point accepted. Let's remove the Ferraris from the equation. We'll use the stats regarding the sale of Mercs and Beemers then. Would you not agree that the country has to be doing very well in order for such a large number to be sold year in, year out?

 

[Leongsam]

One day by accident I found out that Gillian Koh who is noted for her political analytical nonsense was trying to remove a goggle entry

Everyone who supports the govt is branded as a lackey or a dog and their views branded as nonsense while articles that take the govt to task but are actually nothing more than rantings of an anti govt looney are put on a pedestal as a shining beacon of truth and enlightenment.

In my opinion, the anti govt brigade sprout even more nonsense than the pro govt team.

 

[Fook Seng]

OK point accepted. Let's remove the Ferraris from the equation. We'll use the stats regarding the sale of Mercs and Beemers then. Would you not agree that the country has to be doing very well in order for such a large number to be sold year in, year out?

Buying a Merc And Beemers or a car for that has no direct correlation with wealth. Between a mid-size Japanese saloon and a compact Beemer, the difference is only a few tens of thousands of dollars (a few hundred dollars in service payments) part of which you can recover when you scrap the car. It is a lifestyle choice. A very example is to look at FT in Singapore, particular those who come in with the MNCs from the West. Although their salaries are much higher than their local counterparts, many choose not to drive a car especially those who are single. Some might ride a bike instead. They spent their money in pubs and expensive dinners. For those with family they might get a car but a low cost one. They are definitely more wealthy than many of locals that I know who drive more expensive cars. It is very difficult to explain why locals spent their money this way. Maybe houses and cars are something that you get noticed in while indulging in expensive wines and dinners, you do in private and nobody notices. So locals spent to show off, some foreigners from West prefer to enjoy what they spend. That is why most Asians will not enjoy the life at Walden Pond but westerns might.

 

[Leongsam]

Buying a Merc And Beemers or a car for that has no direct correlation with wealth.

I have attached the most recent price list of Mercs in Singapore. If you don't have to be wealthy to afford such prices, you have definitely redefined the meaning of the world "wealth".

This just goes to show that as far as Singaporeans are concerned, paying a quarter of a million dollars for a car that lasts only 10 years is no big deal. In my opinion, only a country and is well governed and wildly successful could have ended up with such an attitude towards what the rest of the world would consider a huge amount of money.

 

[TracyTan866]

The last 25 years has been a gradual decline in terms of values, employment displacement, loss of identity as a Singaporean etc. Imagine his son getting a 12% discount on a soft launch while the rate was 5% to everyone else. If Francis Seow got the same deal, he would have charged him for corruption.

Exactly..One country, Two laws. Turns many thinking Singaporeans against the pap