Crumbling of Singapore?

[TracyTan866]

I thought someone here said that would be quite a number of new talents.

should be...but the question is how many?

 

[TracyTan866]

Your statements are quite baseless if not oxymoronic .Because it was common for us Chinese to have large families.A family of 5 to 10 was the norm among Chinese families in the 50s.The very reason why some countries banned importation of Chinese women into their countries long ago.Malays on the other hand adhered to their religion .Any child is god's gift is their belief.Therfore they don't go out of their way for birth control.

The point being neither the Chinese nor the Malays outbreed each other for political reasons.Whereas you and LKY are tainting it with politics.Now,let's get to the bottom your calculator,your assertions that' LKY succeeded in getting all the ethnic groups to operate at replacement levels and no higher' absolutely false.If we left Singapore at the mercy of it's natural progression say with the assumption whaterver the % of racial mix maybe .....The total number of current population today will not be the same.

Here's the proof----http://www.google.com.sg/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&met_y=sp_pop_totl&idim=country:SGP&dl=en&hl=en&q=singapore+population


Look at the Sinapore;s poulation graph as provided by the world bank.From 1960 to 1970 & from 1970 to 1980....the population growth is constant....Only from 1980 to 2010 it shoots up towards the sky.Due of course to the wanton importation of foreigners.

Now,lets compare this with the very cite you provided......http://toolserver.org/~al/visualize...+population&columns=all&width=1000&height=500

1970;-Chinese 77%--Malays 14.8%
1980;_Chinese 78.3%---Malays 14.4%
1990..Chinese 77.7%----Malays 14.1%
2000;Chinese 76.8%-----Malays 13.9%
2010 Chinese 74.1%......Malays 13.4%

You are blatantly lying Sam.Because the Malays were declining percentage wise in the last 40 years.What is even more interesting is that the Chinese were increasing percentage wise during 1970 1990---which does support your or LKY to flood Singapore with foreigners to balance the racial thingy.

Either you blindly regurgitating LKY mantra....or you are hoping nobody will see through your bluff.

Because now you are caught with your own 'proof' so as to speak.

good rebut

 

[Fook Seng]

Now,lets compare this with the very cite you provided......
1970;-Chinese 77%--Malays 14.8%
1980;_Chinese 78.3%---Malays 14.4%
1990..Chinese 77.7%----Malays 14.1%
2000;Chinese 76.8%-----Malays 13.9%
2010 Chinese 74.1%......Malays 13.4%

That proves my point. As both Chinese and Malays percentage shares drop, where does the slack goes to? Indians.

 

[Leongsam]

Because now you are caught with your own 'proof' so as to speak.

The importation of non muslims didn't start in the 21st century. It started way back during Singapore's early industrialisation phase with the Malaysian Chinese and Indians. The difference then was that they didn't stand out like a sore thumb. They blended in perfectly.

In the industry that I was working in, more than 50% of the engineers/techs/supervisors were non muslim Malaysians.

I've seen the policy at work first hand. I had Malay friends with relatives living just across the causeway. Try as they may, they could never get PR in Singapore. In the meantime, Chinese Malaysians were offered residency on a platter. You don't have to believe me. I didn't believe it myself at the time until I saw how things worked from personal experience.

At the end of the day, Singaporeans have to decide for themselves what's best for them.

 

[Nice-Gook]

That proves my point. As both Chinese and Malays percentage shares drop, where does the slack goes to? Indians.

Not really lah.Look closely.

The Malays were dropping % consistently for the past 40 years....Whereas the Chinese were actually increasing during the 1970 to 1990 when foreigners were not imported nor figured in our statistics.

 

[Leongsam]

Not really lah.Look closely.

The Malays were dropping % consistently for the past 40 years....Whereas the Chinese were actually increasing during the 1970 to 1990 when foreigners were not imported nor figured in our statistics.

Let's just work things out then.

If I can recall, the population of Singapore in 1970 was 1.25 million.

77% Chinese would then be 1,250,000 x 0.77 = 962,500

In 2010, the population of Singapore was about 4 million.

13.4% Malays is 4,000,000 x 0.134 = 536,000 [wiki gives the figure of 650,000 so it's in the same ballpark]

If the Chinese had maintained a replacement level TFR of 2.1, Singapore today would consist of 962,500 Chinese and 536,000 Malays. Even at this level, Singapore would not be what it is today.

However, the Chinese Singaporeans have never been fertile enough to maintain replacement levels. The TFR is now 1.02 and has been well below 2.1 for as long as I can remember. It's therefore pretty obvious that an explosive racial mix would exist if it were not for the big influx of non muslim immigrants.

If you don't see this as a problem, it's fine with me. I happen to be slightly less optimistic regarding how things would turn out if half the population were muslim.

 

[Nice-Gook]

The importation of non muslims didn't start in the 21st century. It started way back during Singapore's early industrialisation phase with the Malaysian Chinese and Indians. The difference then was that they didn't stand out like a sore thumb. They blended in perfectly.

In the industry that I was working in, more than 50% of the engineers/techs/supervisors were non muslim Malaysians.

I've seen the policy at work first hand. I had Malay friends with relatives living just across the causeway. Try as they may, they could never get PR in Singapore. In the meantime, Chinese Malaysians were offered residency on a platter. You don't have to believe me. I didn't believe it myself at the time until I saw how things worked from personal experience.

At the end of the day, Singaporeans have to decide for themselves what's best for them.

Pls don't throw red herrings here and there ,I had read of Singapore's early history much more than anybody here.Talking about past eh?

Did you know that 1950 or on about the Chinese poulation was about 51%?....Did Singapore wither because of it?

Did you know that Singapore attracted skilled people from Malacca who were vastly non Chinese in the first 30 yrs after Raffles landed ---was not Singapore built to be the pearl of Asia?

Did you know there was much more riots and mayhem contributed between Hokkien Clan and Teochew clan rivalries in the first 100 years after Raffles landed than after 1960?Even the number of dead far exceeds by 500% than all racial riots between Malays and Chinese put together?

Besides,if Malays are the real enemies to Chinese progress why are millions of Chinese from Malaysia and Indonesia do not want to trade place with Singapore?Not to mention almost all Malaysian Chinese,even at CEO of MNC level,still prefer to go back to Malaysia after working in Singapore for more than 40 years.!

 

[Nice-Gook]

In 2010, the population of Singapore was about 4 million.

Sam for heaven stop living in your own world.Or heaven forbids,bipolar dis order?

Look at the statistics provided by the World Bank--it not what I churned out.

The total population of Singapore's population is about 5 millions.

 

[Fook Seng]

Not really lah.Look closely.

The Malays were dropping % consistently for the past 40 years....Whereas the Chinese were actually increasing during the 1970 to 1990 when foreigners were not imported nor figured in our statistics.

I was only referring to the period when the import FT strategy kicked in. If Chinese actually increased their percentage before that, then what we see today must be an anomaly and that something is drastically wrong in how we analyse the situation.

 

[Windsor]

The WP is no different. Just look at the number who entered parliament by hiding inside LTK's chinaman underwear.

I refute that....WP is not PAP and their road to parliament was strewn with obstacles, courtesy of their opponents. They are definitely not cut from the same cloth as the PAP MP's. All of them added their weight and definitely not passengers.

 

[Leongsam]

Pls don't throw red herrings here and there ,I had read of Singapore's early history much more than anybody here.Talking about past eh?
Did you know that 1950 or on about the Chinese poulation was about 51%?....Did Singapore wither because of it?

You cannot compare the politics of the colonial and immediate post colonial era with today's brand of Wahhabi Islam.

However, even with the relatively benign brand of Islam at the time, Singaporean Chinese did not have an easy time during the 1963 to 1965 period when Singapore was part of a Malay state. I lived through personally. I certainly wouldn't want go through it again. It's not exactly pleasant having to be constantly mindful of the so called "religious sensitivities" of the ruling class.

 

[Nice-Gook]

Yup,you are right.Tons of Malaysian Chinese work in Singapore--even today.But they are not Singaporeans by citizenship.So technically speaking % there are more ethnic Chinese in Singapore at any one time.The ratio could very well be for each 5% Malays 85% ethnic Chinese are economically engaged in Singapore at any one time.This applies even if our Malay poulation is say 25% and they can remain unemployed whereas foreign Chinese can be gainfully employed in Singapore.This will not show in our population statistics.

The point being that LKY 's Malay as our enemies is merely a boogey man.

 

[Leongsam]

Sam for heaven stop living in your own world.Or heaven forbids,bipolar dis order?

Look at the statistics provided by the World Bank--it not what I churned out.

The total population of Singapore's population is about 5 millions.

Yes but that includes all guest workers etc.

The actual number of CITIZENS is 3.25 million and this is where the voting base comes from. I rounded it off to about 4 million to include the soon to be citizens, long term PR who might or might not become citizens and so on. The 1,000,000 plus foreigners in the country don't factor in the political equation because they don't vote.

If I worked on a figure of 3.25 million, the proportion of Malays would be even higher as there are no Malay PRs in Singapore as far as I know. They are all citizens or they would not be allowed to stay.

 

[Nice-Gook]

You cannot compare the politics of the colonial and immediate post colonial era with today's brand of Wahhabi Islam.

However, even with the relatively benign brand of Islam at the time, Singaporean Chinese did not have an easy time during the 1963 to 1965 period when Singapore was part of a Malay state. I lived through personally. I certainly wouldn't want go through it again. It's not exactly pleasant having to be constantly mindful of the so called "religious sensitivities" of the ruling class.

And may I ask who was our national enemy till the late 80s?...It was communists, remember?

When Americans won the cold war they badly needed another wolf to focus their attention to rally their war cry.Muslims were the convenient scapegoats this time.In the past the Jews played the same baddies for more than 1000 years -for Europeans.Perhaps China will fill the vacuum where the former USSR left.

Historically it was not the Whabi Muslims clawing at Singapore's door.It was the Thais...than the Javanese.Enemies will change.There is no permanent foes and friends in politics.Quit playing this there is a ghost under your bed game.Many of us don't fall for this crap.

 

[Leongsam]

The point being that LKY 's Malay as our enemies is merely a boogey man.

They aren't the enemy in the conventional sense. However, you have to realise that in today's brand of Islam that is enveloping the world, secularism is not an acceptable form of govt. To a muslim, there is no separation between govt and religion. They are all one and the same.

If 50% of the Singapore electorate were muslims, politics in Singapore would be a different kettle of fish altogether. Forget the PAP vs WP vs SDP discussions. Things would be a lot more volatile and voting would invariably end up along religious lines. There would be pressure to change laws to better reflect muslim values. There would be debates regarding the use of the Malay language which even today is the National language. There would be pressure to teach it in schools to ALL races as is done in Malaysia. There is no end to the list of possible changes and conflicts that could arise.

 

[Nice-Gook]

They aren't the enemy in the conventional sense. However, you have to realise that in today's brand of Islam that is enveloping the world, secularism is not acceptable form of govt. To a muslim, there is no separation between govt and religion. They are all one and the same.

Your religious knowledge is very weak.

Why don't you read something on crusade or about Spanish inquisition?It was a Christian thingy man. Indian civilization is based on religious persecution .Otherwise how do you explain Buddhism as non existence entity in it's country of birth whereas it is thriving elsewhere.

How did you think SEA and particularly the Malay Archipelago evolved form Hinduism >Buddhism >Islam.Go and read something on this.

I hate to discuss religion with lesser mortals because it can get very emotional.Worse if you come with both your eyes closed.

 

[TracyTan866]

I refute that....WP is not PAP and their road to parliament was strewn with obstacles, courtesy of their opponents. They are definitely not cut from the same cloth as the PAP MP's. All of them added their weight and definitely not passengers.

Yes..WP is definitely not pap. I respect WP's candidates a lot. They contested against great odds and they prevailed.

 

[TracyTan866]

Not really lah.Look closely.

The Malays were dropping % consistently for the past 40 years....Whereas the Chinese were actually increasing during the 1970 to 1990 when foreigners were not imported nor figured in our statistics.

will the racial polarisation in SG contribute to SG's crumble?

 

[Fook Seng]

will the racial polarisation in SG contribute to SG's crumble?

No. But not recognizing the anti-establishment sentiments and taking appropriate action will. The PAP should look beyond party interests and focus on national interest. Have a political system that is fair to all and not only to themselves will certainly go a long way towards building a stable political environment, so that whoever takes over - PAP, WP or a coalition of whatever flavor, the rules are fair to all and a non-performing government can be democratically overturned.

 

[TracyTan866]

The PAP should look beyond party interests and focus on national interest.

Yes, that's what Singaporeans aspire and are pleading that all SG political parties focus on national interests rather than party interests. But so far that plea has fallen on deaf pap ears