Church leader gets $500k

[kakowi]

Both Joseph and Mary came from the Davidic line meaning they may have had wealthy families. Jesus was born in a manger was because there was no room at the inn, not because they did not have money for the inn. The wise men that visited the baby Jesus were not only three but many because they were travelling for two years by caravan to find him. They probably gave Jesus’ family a large sum of gold and gifts. who will so bo liao to track him down and just leave like that after saying he is the king. Surely they will leave down their namecard or contact in case next time he become king , can become his supplier or whatever.

Jesus’ ministry. Old Testament says that a rich man does not follow a poor man and since Peter was rich, a fisherman with a business, they would not have followed a poor Jesus. “a rich man follows a rich man, a poor man follows a rich man, but a rich man never follows a poor man”. Jesus, he said, could not have been looking filthy and raggety to call his apostles, he was wearing “an Armani suit”.

The sandals Jesus wore being a sign of wealth and also of the fact that Jesus and his apostles had a treasurer, Judas. They would not have needed a treasurer if they did not have money.

Of all the 12 disciples of Jesus, only one loves money - Judas. Need I say more?

By your words, Peter and the others look at the wealth of Jesus before deciding to follow him. I differ.

Your points are a defense by the prosperity theologians of which Joseph Prince is one. By the way, would Jesus change his name to one with better public relations potential? Would Jesus market his services?

If you think he will, why not go back to that time when the Devil told Jesus that all these in the world are yours if only he will bow down to him. What is Armani, the best condo in the East and BMW 7-series with license plate 555, ownership of close to a billion-dollar company outside of the purview of the Commissioner of Charities compared to nations and the wealth of nations?

Jesus rejected all these for one reason - nothing will come between him and what he wants to do for you.

If Jesus is such a lover of money, when it comes to the Cross, he will look up and say "Not within my job scope. My pay packet does not demand this."

Like I said, if you sincerely believe in Joseph Prince is right in doing what he is doing, then I will not take that belief from you.

But if you want to reflect, then consider:

(1) Joseph Prince wants to remain as Chairman of the Finance Committee

(2) He wants to remain as CEO of the NCC

(3) The NCC is a company limited by guarantee, which is under the purview of the Commissioner of Charities.

(4) The Commissioner of Charities allow him, under some guidelines not publicly stated, to pass money to a private limited company with him as a shareholder. The money, once passed, is no longer accountable to the Commissioner of Charities. With Joseph Prince as both the CEO of the company and Chairman of the Finance Committee, who decide on the guidelines? If such leeway was granted to Rev Ming Yi, there would have been no issues.

(5) The church building and Rock Productions - is it owned by the New Creation Church which is under the Commissioner of Charities' overview or a private company with Joseph Prince as shareholder?

Points (1) to (4) are in the past newspaper reports if you can recall.

At the end of the day, it is up to the individual to make their own decision.

I think I have said my piece.

Maybe I am wrong about these facts. Maybe there are other facts I do not know. If so, tell me the true facts. The arguments, not facts, which are used to justify Joseph Prince's position is at variant with the Jesus I know and love.

 

[Naturefarm2]

Of all the 12 disciples of Jesus, only one loves money - Judas. Need I say more?

By your words, Peter and the others look at the wealth of Jesus before deciding to follow him. I differ.

Your points are a defense by the prosperity theologians of which Joseph Prince is one. By the way, would Jesus change his name to one with better public relations potential? Would Jesus market his services?

If you think he will, why not go back to that time when the Devil told Jesus that all these in the world are yours if only he will bow down to him. What is Armani, the best condo in the East and BMW 7-series with license plate 555, ownership of close to a billion-dollar company outside of the purview of the Commissioner of Charities compared to nations and the wealth of nations?

Jesus rejected all these for one reason - nothing will come between him and what he wants to do for you.

If Jesus is such a lover of money, when it comes to the Cross, he will look up and say "Not within my job scope. My pay packet does not demand this."

Like I said, if you sincerely believe in Joseph Prince is right in doing what he is doing, then I will not take that belief from you.

But if you want to reflect, then consider:

(1) Joseph Prince wants to remain as Chairman of the Finance Committee

(2) He wants to remain as CEO of the NCC

(3) The NCC is a company limited by guarantee, which is under the purview of the Commissioner of Charities.

(4) The Commissioner of Charities allow him, under some guidelines not publicly stated, to pass money to a private limited company with him as a shareholder. The money, once passed, is no longer accountable to the Commissioner of Charities. With Joseph Prince as both the CEO of the company and Chairman of the Finance Committee, who decide on the guidelines? If such leeway was granted to Rev Ming Yi, there would have been no issues.

(5) The church building and Rock Productions - is it owned by the New Creation Church which is under the Commissioner of Charities' overview or a private company with Joseph Prince as shareholder?

Points (1) to (4) are in the past newspaper reports if you can recall.

At the end of the day, it is up to the individual to make their own decision.

I think I have said my piece.

Maybe I am wrong about these facts. Maybe there are other facts I do not know. If so, tell me the true facts. The arguments, not facts, which are used to justify Joseph Prince's position is at variant with the Jesus I know and love.

Well said, out of 12 and there is 1 greedy one. then out of the 12 million people there is 1 million greedy people, need i say more?
Judas has his purpose in the bible and we will not say more. Without his betrayal, the whole savlation will not take place at all?

What Prince or whoever deed and action should not be judge by us but only by god. Who is there to say what is right or wrong? It really depend on the return of christ to determine who is right?
If the requirement by god is to get the most christian within the shortest period, can you say that they do not done a good job? They are master at recruiting members. Compare to the Holy and common church, they are operating at a closed communities and their members remain for many years.

For example, if you work in the company and you decide that the whole company policy and how its run do not suit you at all.
You know that to climb the corporate ladder , you need to do things again your will, what will you do?

1. You can remain holy, complaint how the management is pressuring the employee and tell yourself that you not among them.

2. Or you will climb to the top, using agressive method and make sure you are at the top to turn the situation to your favor?

If the church allow it, the member happyily donate, what the problem?

 

[congo9]

=============

Yes, Jesus said: "Greater Love has no man, except when he lays down his life for another"

Jesus also said : "take up your cross and follow me". Does the Church teach that today?

I once spoke to a guy from City Harvest. He was quite shocked when I quoted bible verses to show that St Paul suffered from hunger and from fears.....

=========================================================
Yes , Christ has died to redemmed us from FEAR and from hunger. If Paul has to go through hunger and fear , it does not mean that you got to go through that also.

People living in the world go through hunger and fear.

Simple question, if Christ is not married , shd we are stay single all the way ? You guys cannt take out this single verse and ask us to die young and poor !

 

[The_Latest_H]

My reply:

1. Pffffttt. Firstly its a religious organisation and it's rumoured that the head pastor is paid $500k. So is he serving God, or the greenbacks?

2. The reasons New Creation stated somehow- weirdly or not- are similar with the same ones AIG FP division said when they announced that US$165m would be paid to these same executives that nearly caused AIG to collapse- and wasted billions of taxpayers money....I will leave you all guys to evaluate this episode for yourselves.

 

[kakowi]

...

Since you feel this way, i guess i do not have anything more to say.

 

[kakowi]

...
(1) Joseph Prince wants to remain as Chairman of the Finance Committee

(2) He wants to remain as CEO of the NCC

(3) The NCC is a company limited by guarantee, which is under the purview of the Commissioner of Charities.

(4) The Commissioner of Charities allow him, under some guidelines not publicly stated, to pass money to a private limited company with him as a shareholder. The money, once passed, is no longer accountable to the Commissioner of Charities. With Joseph Prince as both the CEO of the company and Chairman of the Finance Committee, who decide on the guidelines? If such leeway was granted to Rev Ming Yi, there would have been no issues.

(5) The church building and Rock Productions - is it owned by the New Creation Church which is under the Commissioner of Charities' overview or a private company with Joseph Prince as shareholder?

Points (1) to (4) are in the past newspaper reports if you can recall.

...

some extensions/clarifications:

extracts from http://app.mcys.gov.sg/web/corp_press_story.asp?szMod=corp&szSubMod=press&qid=4153

(a) Board Independence. Some charities have paid staff chairing their boards. This may compromise their boards' independence and objectivity as there is no clear separation of board and executive roles. Recognising the unique situation of religious charities where it may not be practical to require the separation of spiritual leadership from leadership of the governing board, COC has, nevertheless asked that they put in place measures or arrangements to manage potential problems arising from this conflicts of roles and certain decisions requiring the separation of roles.

(b) Conflict of Interest Policy. There is scope for improvement in formalising conflict of interest policy or procedures to manage potential and actual conflicts. There should be formal documentation of policies and procedures to manage conflicts of interest. This is particularly important where there are paid staff chairing and sitting on their board.
​

extracts from : http://www.newcreation.org.sg/aboutus/media_coverage/media-responses.htm

According to the article, Rock’s “shareholders are its well-known pastor Joseph Prince, another pastor Joshua Lee, and directors Matthew Kang and Jeannie Yeo-Yap”.

In actual fact, all of Rock’s shares belong to NCC and are held in trust by Pastor Prince, Pastor Joshua and Matthew Kang (jointly holding 102,999,999 shares), and Jeannie Yeo-Yap (holding 1 share). Proper Declarations of Trust have been drawn up by our lawyer.

Because the shares are held in trust for the church, none of the shareholders receive any dividends. Neither do the directors of Rock receive any director’s fees, salaries or bonuses

​

There, you have the basic context - the latitude given by the Commissioner of Charities and the governance as reported by NCC itself.

Thus it would appear that money can be passed from NCC to Rock whose 3 shareholders hold it in trust for NCC.

Though it was specifically stated that none of the directors received fees, salaries, bonuses or dividends, it was not stated if the directors have the discretion under the terms of the Trust to dispose of the assets as they deemed fit, under their 3-men shareholder votes as opposed to the full Finance Committee votes under the NCC. In such case, it is easier to get consensus within Rock than under NCC.

Although Rock is engaged in commercial activities which NCC cannot, still the full Finance Committee in NCC could have been trustees in Rock - which would have resulted in a more robust system.

(note: a clarification - this situation is different from that of Rev Ming Yi in view of the Trust Deed which transfers control back to NCC)

End of commentary.

 

[SIFU]

thats it..

this thread is now fit for religious crap section.

 

[shelltox]

Then you are implying that the church can save people by giving them $$$?

What I saying about Mother teresa is that she is really serving a higher existance by devoting her life to the poor and helping the poor.

In singapore, if you are a poor church, and people dont come, that means you cannot help or "save" others like christians like to say? Which does not make sense at all to me.

If using money to draw people to a church, then when crisis comes, and the church have no money, then people dont come at all. What type of religion is this? Corporation?

It is Mother Teresa's selfless deeds that made me respect her and through her I found God's love for mankind (not necessary the Biblical God).

 

[poore]

so sick of these ppl.....

after nkf...ren ci....still gt this...

y they need so much money when they are serving God?

if to compensate them fairly ...i agree....like if they previously earn 10k....maybe they shd get back ard that sum...cos they still nid to support family etc....

but 500k???

 

[halsey02]

In the past we would say, "as poor as a church mouse"!!..looks like the church these days are filled with 'fat cats'!! no longer "as poor as a church mouse".

I have always thought that pastors are contended with an 'allowance' that is enough to feed themselves?

 

[JPMorgan888]

Now now no need to get personal.

I don't think NKF/Durai's case is the same as NCC.

NKF/Durai is a public charity and involved deceit, deception, fraud, smokescreens and mirrors.

NCC on the other hand is a church organisation accountable to its member congregation only. What NCC does with its income is purely up to NCC and its member congregation. Others not happy, well I guess God shall deal with NCC and its member congregation in due course.

However if there is fraud, deceit and deception going on in NCC then yes the authorities should step in and do the necessary, no one is above the law. But is this case?

Religious entities gain rebates and tax exemptions as they are also listed as charitable organisations. Hence what NCC does with its income is NOT purely up to NCC and its member congregation.

NCC, City harvest.... all fall under the purview of the Commissioner of Charities, as did NKF.

So how are they not the same?

 

[JPMorgan888]

Well said, out of 12 and there is 1 greedy one. then out of the 12 million people there is 1 million greedy people, need i say more?
Judas has his purpose in the bible and we will not say more. Without his betrayal, the whole savlation will not take place at all?

What Prince or whoever deed and action should not be judge by us but only by god. Who is there to say what is right or wrong? It really depend on the return of christ to determine who is right?
If the requirement by god is to get the most christian within the shortest period, can you say that they do not done a good job? They are master at recruiting members. Compare to the Holy and common church, they are operating at a closed communities and their members remain for many years.

For example, if you work in the company and you decide that the whole company policy and how its run do not suit you at all.
You know that to climb the corporate ladder , you need to do things again your will, what will you do?

1. You can remain holy, complaint how the management is pressuring the employee and tell yourself that you not among them.

2. Or you will climb to the top, using agressive method and make sure you are at the top to turn the situation to your favor?

If the church allow it, the member happyily donate, what the problem?

The problem, as with the devil, is in the detail.

How NCC conducts itself becomes everyone's problem when millions are funneled through its system without paying tax in order to line pockets of its staff.

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

What I find strange and curious is that quite alot of the people who flock to NCC and CHC are educated, savvy and sophisticated. They are hardly the country bumkin lot that you see in the bible belt area of the States.

Somehow what Prince and Kong Hee preach seems to resonate with this lot of people who are not stupid and naive or you would think are not stupid or naive.

Well different strokes for different folks, so long as they leave me in peace, I say good luck to them and hope they are happy. Oh and I have long since given up trying to rationalise with such folks.

I know where you are coming from and I know that in no way you would be part of this, knowing your personality.

I do agree that it does provide chicken soup for soul and this is where NKF followers have done the same. They too received chicken soup for the soul, thinking that they are donating to a good cause and the money does reach the intended beneficiary.

Except Durai's model is not the right model for blind faith. Tangible results can be measured in NKF while Kong's is a better model where everything is up in the air. Nothing can be measured.

All good people but gullible

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

What do you think he would be?

If Christ were here now there is one thing he would not be - a Christian.

 

[poore]

how can these ppl face their so called gods by paying themselves so much?

when u look ard......there are lesser mortals everywhere in sg ..... old ppl collecting cardboards jus to survive....

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

Perhaps to be fair to Prince and NCC I don't think NCC falls under the category of a public charity unlike Ren Ci, so I don't think Prince and NCC are really accountable to the public at large, only to their member congregation.

As to the issue of Christianity and JC, well to me what JC said below sums up Christianity in a nutshell, apart from loving thy God which to me is a given if you are a believer:

Love thy neighbour as you love yourself

Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and unto God what is God's

(4) The Commissioner of Charities allow him, under some guidelines not publicly stated, to pass money to a private limited company with him as a shareholder. The money, once passed, is no longer accountable to the Commissioner of Charities. With Joseph Prince as both the CEO of the company and Chairman of the Finance Committee, who decide on the guidelines? If such leeway was granted to Rev Ming Yi, there would have been no issues.

(
Maybe I am wrong about these facts. Maybe there are other facts I do not know. If so, tell me the true facts. The arguments, not facts, which are used to justify Joseph Prince's position is at variant with the Jesus I know and love.

 

[commoner]

pay the leader good money then he will perform better and generate more income for the church to help the poor?

they will have a great looking church (rock productions), they have an exciting sunday services,,, but did the church and congregation helped the poor?

Imagine what $19 million raised in a day for the building can do to the poor,,,,,,,,

Or the $500,000 can help how many people,,,,,,, the six figure payout is simply obscene no better how you look at it, or the church trying to justify

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

I see where you are coming from. However I do not think entities like NCC and CHC should be viewed in the same light as public charitable organisations like say NKF and Ren Ci.

Public charitable organisations raise funds from the general public at large. Entities like NCC and CHC do not do this, their income is confined to member congregation. So on the issue of accountability, I think NCC and CHC should only be accountable to its member congregation. However no one is above law, and NCC and CHC still need to comply with all laws.

Religious entities gain rebates and tax exemptions as they are also listed as charitable organisations. Hence what NCC does with its income is NOT purely up to NCC and its member congregation.

NCC, City harvest.... all fall under the purview of the Commissioner of Charities, as did NKF.

So how are they not the same?

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

Are you saying that the "staff" are avoiding legitimate taxes via the church structure?

The problem, as with the devil, is in the detail.

How NCC conducts itself becomes everyone's problem when millions are funneled through its system without paying tax in order to line pockets of its staff.

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

Isn't it obvious that churches like NCC and CHC are more interested in proselytism rather than focus on charity and altruism?

pay the leader good money then he will perform better and generate more income for the church to help the poor?

they will have a great looking church (rock productions), they have an exciting sunday services,,, but did the church and congregation helped the poor?

Imagine what $19 million raised in a day for the building can do to the poor,,,,,,,,

Or the $500,000 can help how many people,,,,,,, the six figure payout is simply obscene no better how you look at it, or the church trying to justify