Chee, SDP and the letters!

[lockeliberal]

Dear Yellow

Errr have u forgotten the following points from the "british evidence you cite" since I am reading the same papers as you are.

1. The British saw them as Communist but "peaceful communist. "

2. The papers and quotations were limited to the context of Singapore alone.


3. Would you like to discuss the CPM up North or is that not part of the context and historical narrative.




Locke

 

[scroobal]

Cold Store certainly worked well for the PAP and that is agreed and understood. It gave them the monoploy that they have till today. But if those detained by Cold Store were peace loving who were responsible for all those violence.

I was never avoiding the issue. Rather, you guys kept shifting the ground of discussion.

The issue was, and still is:

1. Were the arrests legitimate, i.e. based on irrefutable evidence the colonial office and ISC possessed that there was a security basis to the operation?

2. What were the real motives behind Cold Store? If not for ostensible security reasons of containing violence, could it have been used as an expedient for political ends?

 

[yellowarse]

1. The British saw them as Communist but "peaceful communist. "

Again you attempt rather sneakily to present a false dilemma: the 111 are either ALL commies or ALL non-commies.

I believe I've addressed your question in the previous posts. Wade did not say that the "British saw them as Communist". He only used the word 'communist' on LCS: In July 1962, the British noted that that while they accepted that Lim Chin Siong was a Communist, there was no evidence that he was receiving directions from the C.P.M., Peking or Moscow.

(I also cited Greg Poulgrain, also having access to the papers, as having come to the opposite conclusion: that there was no evidence LCS had ever been a communist.)

Throughout his paper Wade used the word 'Leftists'. Even if we take Wade's interpretation at face value, that LCS was a communist, it does not make the other 110 communists, 'peaceful' or otherwise.

2. The papers and quotations were limited to the context of Singapore alone.

Yes. And the arrests were carried out in Singapore.

3. Would you like to discuss the CPM up North or is that not part of the context and historical narrative.

CPM was definitely part of the historical context and narrative, but your attempt to bring in the CPM to justify the legitimacy of Cold Store is spurious.

Because the legitimacy of the arrests did not depend on what Chin Peng's plans were: whether he had networks here, whether he intended to use violence, whether he wanted to influence Barisan.

The legitimacy depended on:

1. Whether the British had any evidence at the time of impending violence from the detainees. Remember, Chin Peng didn't make the arrests; the Brits did. If Chin Peng had evidence to the contrary about the 111, he certainly didn't present it to the Brits to legitimise the arrests.

2. Whether the British had any evidence that those arrested were acting under the instructions of CPM or were bona fide CPM members?

The answer to both questions is no.

Your Chin Peng excerpts confirmed as much: though he had networks here, was trying work through the unions and leftist parties here, he conceded that the key guys in Barisan, LCS included, were not at his beck-and-call, were not taking instructions from him — they were working independently.

If he had wanted to use Barisan as a front, he failed miserably.

And I also alluded to the present-day academic consensus that not only was the Cold Store the single decisive factor for the demise of left-wing politics in Singapore, it achieved this by ironically arresting the moderate leftists, while leaving out the more hardcore guys who went on to radicalise their cause and boycott the electoral platform.

If Cold Store's real aim was to wipe out the hardcore commies, it obviously ended up targeting the wrong guys.

 

[yellowarse]

Cold Store certainly worked well for the PAP and that is agreed and understood.

At least there's some common ground here. I'd go further: the evidence today is clear that Cold Store working out fabulously for the PAP wasn't just a coincidence. It was the intended result; it provided the real motivation behind the arrests. The security reasons were just a pretext, a smokescreen.

But if those detained by Cold Store were peace loving who were responsible for all those violence.

I believe, having come into personal contact with some of these folks, that those detained were by and large devout socialists who were committed to attaining power through constitutional means. I also did say there could be dyed-in-the-wool commies in the 111, but these were NOT the real targets of the operation.

In fact, though Wade didn't mention it, the vast majority of those detained were there to make up the numbers, merely an attempt to put a more legitimate face on the op, to make it look like this was a genuine dragnet to eliminate dangerous commies.

In truth, Cold Store's real aim was to eliminate the key rivals — numbering not more than 25 — to old fart's power. And that was why the moderates were being targeted — the real hardcore guys were either in the jungle, or radicalizing themselves out of the equation in electoral politics.

 

[lockeliberal]

Dear Yellow

Wade also stated in Pg 43 the following using the excerpts from the ISC paper and BTW yes Wade uses the ISC paper to make his case but he uses the term leftist without explaining clearly why he disagree's with the ISC statements. You cannot base your paper on excerpts which call your leftist , peaceful communist without suggesting why the excerpts were wrong in calling them communist.

" Since ISC Paper no 61 on the security situation in Singapore, there has been no change in CPM policy in Singapore. This remains that of establishing by constitutional means a communist state and acheiving this ends through the united front. "

The disagreements over cold store finally bored down to UPP which even Selkirk found excessive though finally LKY prevailed in even wiping out minor political enemies. The UPP numbered 3 who were arrested. I believe that whilst there may have been innocents amongst those arrested, the large portion of those were in fact communist supporters, or communist cpm members. As it is in the climate of those days I believe that some innocents were probably arrested, but then the effectiveness of the operation was overall not in doubt.

My dear boy , the arrest were carried it out in Singapore, but does the fact that an ongoing insurgency exists next door mean anything ? It meant something to the Australians and Selkirks counterparts in KL who were aghast at Selkirks initial lax attitude.

What you are in fact arguing is that , Chin Peng's ongoing armed struggle next door and documented history and past activities in Singapore counted for nothing. that yes tt might have been violent activities everywherelse but because they were quiet in Singapore, everything was hunky dory.

The legitimacy for cold store is something which we will never agree. Britian when it gave independence to its colonies always sought to leave in place pro western governments, the communist did the same in eastern europe and the cold war was .fought in all manner of third world countries. All I can say is that I am glad the Brits
won and the communist lost.

Chin Peng was peaceful in Singapore because of the 1959 sado declaration which he reversed in two years after recieving support in Peking. If the same party carries out violence next door and is a peaceful activist in Singapore, any sane person would take the actions of violence next door as being representative.

Firstly Chin Peng's excerpt reveal the following , that he had extensive networks with fronts, that in 1959 , political action was contemplated for some, that in 1960 Eui Chooi Yip went from Riau to Beijing to discuss Singapore and the impending merger with CP and then after that no mention of Eui's movements except that the movement failed to prepare despite CP's warnings

Was it independence ? Incompetence ? The fact remains that till 1960 61 Eui was in RIau to maintain operational contact and control of some form. Mas Selamat in JB is the best example today.

They may have been hard to control, somewhat independent of day to day CPM direction in Peking but they were still communist at the end of the equation with branches still active with guns.



Locke

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

r u so sure that none of the OCS detainees were not commie sympathisers at the v least?...

btw tks for referring me to Wade's detailed esssay...provides an interesting counter point...however i don't think Wade's essay has categorically put to bed the old chestnut controversy as to which way the key detainees swung...in this regard i personally see no distinction between a card carrying CPM member and a CPM symapthiser...both wld hv caused irreparable if not severe damage to Singapore's nascent development in the 60s and 70s...

Sam is right. Those detained under Operation Cold Store were socialists, and there was no evidence whatsoever that they were planning any violent activities, based on declassified documents from the British and Australian archives.

The historian Geoff Wade has addressed these points very cogently in a detailed piece on the circumstances surrounding Cold Store, ‘Operation Cold Store’: A Key Event in the Creation of Malaysia and in the Origins of Modern Singapore.

.

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

also Cuba, Vietnam and N Korea etc...

As an ideology and as an experiment, it ran it course and it clearly failed. Both China and the USSR can attest to it.

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

wah now u try to back track alittle eh?!:p...oh n u now also appear to be splitting hairs...commie r marxist is just playing semantics...still gotta to agitate for a classless society...such agitation wld invariably lead to violence n chaos...

Like Scroobal and Omnia, you've swallowed PAP propaganda hook, line and sinker. Most of those detained(don't just take it from me — check Geoff Wade's seminal academic paper) under Cold Store were largely ex-left-wing members who had split from the PAP to form the Barisan Sosialis.

These were in the main socialists, concerned with social justice and the lot of the poor and disenfranchised. If they had any sympathies with the communist movement, it was largely with the socialist aspects of Marxist doctrine. But violence was their modus operandi.

i acknowledge that some of the OCS detainees were caught in harry's cross hairs as he tried to weed out the crypto commies...and i am also aware that harry's original OCS list contained far more names than the approved one...in this regard the security council whittled it down to the more probable and likely bunch of crypto commies...

Moreover, declassified documents from the UK Archives have shown unequivocally that the British colonial authorities, LKY and the ISD were well aware that the 110+ arrested had not and were not planning any violent, anarchic schemes to seize power. The 'communist label' was just a convenient excuse to get rid of LKY's formidable rivals

now just becoz they hv never confessed that were commies does not unequivocally n categorically prove that they were not commie sympathisers at the v least n wld hv been influenced to do CPM's bidding to some extent at least if they came to power...

moreover i note in this dialogue thus far...no mentioned has been made to the Plen's (Fang Chuang Pi) book which seems to give the impression that this bunch were commie sympathisers at the v least...also i believe Poh Soo Kai & perhaps even Lim Hock Siew gave medical aid to injured CPM jungle guerillas...not forgetting Lim Chin Siong n gang's friendly ties wif chaps like Samad Ismail(exposed as a card carrying CPM member), revolutionary Bostermann et al...ABL n anti-colonialist tag starts to wear thin, good cover for crypto commies/commie sympathisers...furthermore i also believe former CPM card carrying members like Devan Nair n Gerald de Cruz were pretty sure that Lim Chin Siong n gang were crypto commies/commie sympathisers...

It's the oldest political trick in the book: smear your opponents, make it stick, and hang him for it.

That's why none of those detained - Lim Hock Siew, Said Zahari, Poh Su Kai, Chia Thye Poh, etc had ever confessed to being communists. That's why they were detained for so long, through the entire prime of their lives, for no other reason than that old fart (and the PAP) had to maintain these historical lies which are now propagated as TRUTH in our kids' history textbooks. (History, as they say, being always written by the victors.) 16, 17, 20 years were the norm, and in Chia Thye Poh's case, a whopping 32 years, an ignominious world record for political detention (5 years longer than Mandela's).

to me i think it was more a combination of OCS' ramifications n the misguided n ill conceived walk out of parliament/boycott of post 65 GE by BS' parliamentarians...

It is also noteworthy that most political historians today agree that Operation Cold Store was the single decisive factor responsible for the demise of left-wing socialist politics in Singapore.

i beg to disagree...i know of pple who were personal friends of Poh Su Kai, Lim Hock Siew n gang during those critical material yrs in the 50s n 60s...n their recollection was that these chaps were disciplined extreme leftists who wld probably hv made the intellegentsia n middle classes/upper middle classes sweep the streets literally if they came to power, n that is just the mild bits...i for one am damn bloody glad that harry & gang prevailed...

Who knows what kind of Singapore we might have inherited if there were a left-wing ballast to PAP's decidedly right-wing and increasingly fascist polity? A messier country perhaps, lower GDP maybe, strikes and sit-ins possibly, certainly a more vibrant and rambunctious political and activist scene.

But, in all probabilities, but for Cold Store, we would also have inherited a kinder, more humane state with greater social equity and a voice for the downtrodden and under-privileged.

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

once again i think u r splitting hairs...for eg. the Big 6(mix of english n chinese educated) were crypto commies or commie sympathisers at the v least...

As I've said, go read the declassified documents from the UK and Australian archives. They reveal a wealth of information to which even Chin Peng was not privy, the key of which was that the bulk of the English-educated leftists (not the predominantly Chinese-educated CPM members) were not communists but were focussed on socialist politics, no doubt to a great degree influenced by the socialist movements in the West at the time, Britain's labour movement and the US New Deal included.

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

what abt that chap who was made chairman of SBC?...and Chai Chong Yii perhaps?...

We have to learn our history and we also have to be careful to understand many things. Both the old man and ISD are reluctant to release files because many of the communists switched sides and joindd the PAP and or PA to work for the government. Some of the work involved informing on their former comrades. Devan, Jek Yuen Tong and James Fu were communists. Jek and Fu were card carrying members.

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

well that is yr take...which is not incontrovertible...fm my understanding, if BS came to power wif Lim Chin Siong n gang those who were not wif them on ideology i.e. bulk of middle classes/upper middle classes n intelligentsia wld probably hv been 'castrated' by them

But one has to differentiate between card-carrying communists and left-leaning politicians. The vast majority of those detained under Cold Store were key Barisan members, of socialist bent but not communist, and mostly moderate from an ideological standpoint. They were more concerned with workers' rights and alleviating poverty than with the utopian classless society achieved through armed revolution.

.

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

i am still of the view that Wade's opinion is far too broad based...for reasons that i hv stated in my earlier posts abv...

I quote excerpts from Wade:

"There was no evidence of militant plans by the Left, only efforts to attain constitutional power, expressions of opposition to merger and messages of support for the Brunei rebels in their “anti-colonial struggle”. Did any of these actions warrant arrest and detention without trial? Only if one was looking for a pretext. Essentially, the arrests and detentions under Cold Store were not legitimate and were carried out to ensure Lee Kuan Yew’s maintenance of power in Singapore and guarantee that he would lead Singapore into Malaysia, as required by the British and the Tunku...

"The arrest and detentions made under the operation were intended only to ensure that the British policy of Greater Malaysia was realised...

"By essentially eliminating one side of politics in Singapore, Operation Cold Store created the conditions where a single political force could dominate every aspect of the Singapore polity."

~Geoff Wade, ‘Operation Cold Store’: A Key Event in the Creation of Malaysia and in the Origins of Modern Singapore, 2010
.

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

yes, yes n hell yes!

What is wrong with the IRA? They were fighting for independence and the right to determine their future as a nation. There were no profit motives involved. It was a dedicated bunch like Lim Hock Siew and company.

I getting the impression that you are not at all familiar with the subject in the first place and therefore unable to understand the dynamics.

These are very capable and honorable men but misguided in terms of ideology which on hindsight turned to be unsustainable. They were not cheats, thugs or criminals. They were however danger to the state.

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

one can argue abt the legal technicalities n legitimacy of the OCS arrests till the cows come home n we shall probably still not come up wif an incontrovertible ans...let me add that u gotta look at the context, nature n circumstances at that material time...

1. Were the arrests legitimate?

No. The archives have shown very clearly that the authorities had no evidence the key politicians were linked to the CPM, were under the command of Chin Peng, or had plans for an armed overthrow of the state. Your quoted excerpts stated as much.

That's the central point of my argument. The Brits had no basis for the arrests and they knew they had no basis. There was no provision under the law in which it was an offence to be a communist. It is an offence to be a member of an outlawed society like the CPM, but none of those key politicians arrested were members (even Chin Peng admitted so).

The authorities also had no evidence to support the allegations that those arrested had planned or were planning to engage in violent activities. In fact what the declassified papers show is that the Brits actually had the diametrically opposite opinion: that these leftists were largely bent on acquiring power through peaceful constitutional means.

Which all mean that the 'communist' bogeyman was merely a pretext. Not the real reasons behind Cold Store.

i beg to disagree...to me it is still not indubitably clear that the basis behind OCS was just pure n simple "political opportunism n political thuggery"...in reality it was a mixed grey bag...n i maintain that Singapore in general was lucky n fortunate that harry n gang prevailed...as u yrself hv conceded in another post abv...PAP during the 60s n 70s had in fact a socialist bent abt it notwithstanding its authoritarian rule...

2. If these arrests were not motivated by the 'communist conspiracy' and had no legitimate legal basis, what were the REAL reasons behind Cold Store?

Again, while there may be differing nuanced interpretations of the newly-available information, it was indubitably clear that the real reasons for these arrests can be summed up in 2 words: political opportunism. (Sam calls it 'political thuggery', and I agree, considering the number of lives and families destroyed and dislocated.)

For LKY, the one real threat to his dominance would be wiped out in a single blow.

For the Brits, the vision of Greater Malaya and a compliant (pro-British interests) post-independence state could be guaranteed. Even the Secretary of State of the Colonies saw the failure of Cold Store as the failure of Malaysia.

The Tungku was more ambivalent — fear of a continued insurgency in Malaya as well as to the south balanced by deep distrust of LKY. But in the end Cold Store was deemed the lesser of two evils after a backdoor deal which delivered the really hardline commies to KL in return for peaceful integration into Malaysia. (As we know, LKY proved to be a far greater liability to the integrity of the merged entity than the Malaysians could tolerate, and had to be ousted.)

In other words, WIN-WIN-WIN for all 3 sides.

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

to me the gravamen is whether Lim Chin Siong n gang had any links whatsoever wif CPM regardless of whether they sought power via constitutional means...

ironically it was all abt a means to an end...for both Harry n gang and Lim Chin Siong n gang...

But I made it clear that comparing Lim Hock Siew & Co to the IRA is dishonest and calculated to mislead. Because while the IRA is an armed militia group which had no compunction achieving independence through violence and terrorism, those arrested under Cold Store were intent on achieving power through peaceful constitutional means, of which the Brits well cognizant of. The question of violence being central to the discussion at hand: What was the basis for the Cold Store arrests, and were the arrests legitimate?

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

pls lah...Lim Chin Siong n gang were crypto maoist commies or maoist commie sympathisers at the v least...no link to Scandinavian socialism whatsoever...

Just so, the Scandinavian countries are probably the most socialist nations on earth. Are they dictatorships? Is government there predicated on violent repression?

sorry to burst yr red ballon but Cuba now under Raul is slowly but surely going capitalist like the rest of the big reds...heck even N Korea is experimenting wif some form of minor capitalist scheme...

And please, even if we're talking about commies, remember this is not a black-and-white world: Commies all bad, capitalists all good. A quick example: Cuba has a narrower income gap and lower infant mortality than the US, with universal education, literacy and healthcare coverage, despite the decades of economic crippling by the vindictive US embargo which is based on nothing more than ideological grounds. (I'm not even talking about the thousands of assassination attempts by the CIA on Castro... talk about violence!)

Is Cuba a 'bad', 'dangerous' nation — as you and Scroobal insinuate about communism — which deserves to be wiped off the face of this earth? And the US a godsend model of good governance, enlightened economics exemplary society that should be emulated by all other nations?

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

to me a nuanced asian 21C Schumpeter wld be a possible ans...

But looking at people like Chee--how much of a Gandhi, Suu Kyi, North Korean Dissdent can the outside world see in him? None. Nothing close. He goes against what has already been created--an Asian economic model and society that has stood the test time

So unless it is suddenly re-written that Singapore was not the East Asian Tiger that did not use the neo-liberal style model of development, is not a country that opened up to foreign investment and trade, was not a country with infrastructure to support MNCs, was not a country that did not need Western foreign aid, Chee's plan will never work

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

yes...that n the influence of the CCP

5. Wades argument about the innocence of the communist cause in Singapore would only hold true if one claims the communist in SG were entirely different from the communist in Malaysian and also ignoring the armed insurgency which was still ongoing

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

yes, yes n hell yes!

If you do read LKY's speech to Russian students recently,he attributed his succsss as 90% due to good luck,this is the first time he has introduced this factor in his political life and I have watched him for more than 50 years.


Dr Chee does not have it,Dr Chee is not my man,and I am waiting for some one more cunning,more ruthless and more merciless than LKY.

Yes,Singapore is still widely praised all over the world including President Obama,but I believe many forummers here do agree that PAP has the top propaganda machine in this entire world!

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

i certainly hope so...n can't wait...however pls no pantomines or buffoonery

It was always a worry of old man that such a man or woman will arise as the phoenix in his shape and form.

Old man has a philisophy of approaching the offsprings of his adversaries and giving them good jobs and party affliation. In private circles he mentions that their parents were made of "sterner stuff". One wonders why. Also Ngiam comments about monopolising talents is also interesting. With his demise, the outlook will be interesting.