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Chee, SDP and the letters!

Dear Yellow

Frankly, between Singapore and Cuba well Singapore would be all the more liberal and democratic. .............

Locke

Kong lanjio lah you! You compare two universally known idiots and then as a matter of course one will be smarter than the other and then finally conclude that the smarter one is now smart! KNN! Eh CB! For your info, the smart one is still an idiot lah! Kong simi lanjiaw? :oIo:

Why are you PAP dogs so dishonest with your intellectual dispensations? :oIo:

Have you no shame in knowing that your pathetic game will always be found out? :cool:
 
He is saying that they are social activists, not at all associated with the communists and had no intention of violence. As far as he is concerned, the communists are a different lot.

Dear me, you do need a dictionary. "Social" and "socialist".

There's all the difference in the world between a social activist and a socialist politician. The former fights for social causes through activism, while the latter uses the political platform to establish a state run along socialist principles.

My stand is clear. The vast majority of those arrested were leftists, predominantly socialists. They were hoping to achieve power through the parliamentary route and to establish a socialist state. There was no evidence they were communists, and no evidence that they had intended to resort to violence. The arrests were thus illegitimate, and were in truth politically motivated.

Previous arguments from others have been that this group were the front, had been manipulated by the communist and they themselves had not interest in communism and had no desire to resort violence.

Of course the CPM would try its darnedest to manipulate people in position of power, both voters and left-leaning politicians. But a group that has no interest in state communism, no interest in the resort to violence, refused to take orders from any politburo, CANNOT BE CALLED A FRONT.

If I were an evangelist and tried to preach the Bible to you, would that make you guilty of being a Christian and being a front for my evangelical activities?

Did 45 years of PAP rule dumb down so drastically the ability to not conflate contextually separate issues?


Anyone who relies on the kew archives or the archives in Kolkata will not have any evidence on certain things so naturally there is no evidence.

The arrests were made by the ISC under the orders of the Colonial Office. Naturally there will be information to which even the British were not privy to, and some which might not be on open record. LKY and VK Rajah may know a million things that the Brits were oblivious to.

So what? The Brits made the arrests. And based on the available correspondences, it was plain that there was no evidence for these arrests, that the motives were other than the eradication of dangerous 'communist' elements.

Remember, the discussion is: Was Cold Store justified, legitimate? Was there a genuine basis, real evidence, on the British side to effect the operation? Were these arrests politically motivated for the parties involved?
 
Both Barisan and the IRA were fighting for their beliefs. Both had political initiatives on the boil and both were prepared to use violence.

Sorry, you put your foot in it here. The comparison ends here, because there was no evidence whatsoever that the Barisan, while having strong political convictions, were prepared to use violence.

Again your constant attempts to insidiously associate violence with Barisan is not only dishonest but sneaky.


Violence is never an immoral or evil approach to resolve an issue or go around an obstacle. Violence however is the last resort.

This statement I agree with, with a small qualification: the morality of violence is always contextual. So while in some instances it's deplorable an immoral (the Holocaust, for example), in others it may be justified (freedom fighters, slave rebellions, pesants' revolts). But yes, always, violence is the last resort.

Barisan is the communist front.

No concrete evidence, whether from the side of the Brits or Chin Peng. Sure, Chin Peng would love to make Barisan, probably attempted to manipulate the key figures in there. But did he succeed?

In all probabilities, no. When you look at Lim Hock Siew, Chia Thye Poh & Co, you see their socialist resolve but also their distaste for the organised communism and violence. (Not that violence is right or wrong; just that violence wasn't their cup of tea.)

So, if they refused to be manipulated, refused to take orders, refused in principle to establish a communist state, but rather preferred to acquire power through peaceful means, are they still a FRONT?

They were no different to the IRA. If it took violence, so be it.

Again, assumptions. No evidence. Plus oxymoronic: If a party wishes to achieve power peacefully, you cannot say that it also intends to achieve power using violence. And having a standing army to defend the nation you're governing is very different to using the army to achieve power. Please see the difference.

Do you know who started the first of a series of Chinese middle school rights in front of the Istana in 1952. Do you know which PAP politician was one of 3 pivotal person behind the Hock Lee bus riots. On 5th May 1955, old man in an uncharacteristic manner blurted out that he would chose communism over colonialism. A week later the riots occurred. He was in the same party and fully in control of those 3 men behind the riots.He saw the riots start and then took off on a holiday.

If you've read the declassified documents, you'd have realized that LCS had been framed, that the conclusive evidence is that middle school riots were actually instigated by Lim Yew Hock, again forming a pretext for arresting LCS.

Don't believe everything you read from the running dogs and poor prostitutes.


He did not ride the tiger. He groomed the tiger, he was feeding the tiger, he was training the tiger and he instigated the tiger.

Absolutely. But don't be mistaken: the man who groomed and rode the tiger did not have any stripes himself. A power-hungry opportunist with no principles, ideology, creed or religion who's only ruled by a pragmatic bent underlying his quest to achieve his ends by whatever means possible, even if they be of the most unsavoury kind.
 
I really hope they do. I am waiting for the old man to kick the bucket as there is still that fear. My wife's demise also does help.

The only challenge would come from Chinese Chamber of Commerce whose sons and daughters were involved. Contrary to the belief in some quarters that is primarily driven by peasants, this involved the scions and heirs to a number of fortunes. One of its leaders were banished for good.


I too think it's time Singaporean historians step to the plate. The time is right, the resources available for a in-depth re-evaluation of the myths surrounding Cold Store in local academia.
 
Kong lanjio lah you! You compare two universally known idiots and then as a matter of course one will be smarter than the other and then finally conclude that the smarter one is now smart! KNN! Eh CB! For your info, the smart one is still an idiot lah! Kong simi lanjiaw? :oIo:

Why are you PAP dogs so dishonest with your intellectual dispensations? :oIo:

Have you no shame in knowing that your pathetic game will always be found out? :cool:


Some people are born optimistic.,the glass is half full type.
But unfortunately I too do not share his optimism.
Slowly slowly,get 1 or 2 GRCs,then perhaps after about 5 GEs(25 years),then they (the opposition parties)may have a chance to form a government.
Oh,really?Is he living now in Singapore,can he not understand the current ground shift in Singapore?with such a big pot of Roja ingredients suddendly all poured in together,marching to 6.5 millions after PAP wins the nest election.

I am sure most Singaporeans have some understanding about Japanese,having interacted with them over a very long period of time.

We should learn something from the Japanese experience,hard-working people,disciplined,not stupid,homogenous,cohesive,etc,etc,ruled by LDP for about 55 years,with a short disruption in 1993,and another power transition in 2009.

And we know what happened to Japan under a new PM fr the opposition,and we can see the very pathetic state that Japan is in globally today.

But Japan does have world class companies,which compete globally with well established and respected market shares,do we have?

I also agree wholeheartly that the opposition parties are not in a position to resume power in Singapore,and they may never be able to.

In short,my view is that disruption,decline,etc, all these are inevitable,it is is a matter of when,and the earlier it comes,the better it is for Singapoprte.

Our best hope is probably an alternative power centre developed within PAP,but I see this basically as unlikely due to the way new faces are now being inducted within PAP.
 
Your stand is that they are peaceful social activist. If they were, they had no leg to stand on during that time and no support would be coming from the voters as the Progressive Party found. At that time, you need strong men and you either took to violence and social disorder like the communists, or you used proxies like the PAP did to create violence and social disorder. It worked and David MArshall and his peaceful Workers Party fell away.

No ordinary social activists would have been locked away. They would have to be threat to the British, the Tungku and old man. Only the communist fitted the profile. Cold Store was a gold opportunity by old man to put away his former allies. But his allies were no pussies neither were they ordinary social activist. They played a game and lost to a ruthless man. A man who had no ideology or dogma.

During that time, you had to make tough and hard choices. It was not a time for any peaceful social activist movement. The only way to get rid of the British was to force them out.





The peaceful social activist would not have been a threat to anyone. There must be a basis for them to be conceived as a threat.


[Absolutely. But don't be mistaken: the man who groomed and rode the tiger did not have any stripes himself. A power-hungry opportunist with no principles, ideology, creed or religion who's only ruled by a pragmatic bent underlying his quest to achieve his ends by whatever means possible, even if they be of the most unsavoury kind.
 
I can't keep telling you to read your post. Check your very first post. What started as a confident post is turning into something else. Now the position is that communist too were detained but they were the ones. So who were these nameless communist.


Some progress? Did you read my post #169 in response to your post #166?
 
Your stand is that they are peaceful social activist.

Again putting words in my mouth.

Check my previous posts. I repeat, these were not social activists fighting for a social cause on the streets. These were tough, committed politicians fighting to establish a socialist state through constitutional means. They stand for, among other things, wokers' rights, unionism, income equity, poverty eradication, protection of local industries and anti-colonialism. Of course in an era where colonies were fighting for emancipation from colonial powers, a patent nationalistic current also underlies the entire anti-colonial struggle.

But these socialists were committed to achieving power, not by violence, but through peaceful means. I wouldn't call protests and strikes violence: they're part of any citizen's rights to freedom of association, assembly and political expression in all democracies, socialist or otherwise. They can turn violent as any demonstration can, but that's not the same as overthrowing a ruling power in an armed revolt.

So please stop twisting my words. If you still have trouble differentiating: Greenpeace is social activism; Obama is a socialist politician.


No ordinary social activists would have been locked away.

Of course not. These were not social activists, they were politicians fighting for power to rule an independent nation.


They would have to be threat to the British, the Tungku and old man.

Naturally, they were a threat. A political threat, not a security one. Should Bush engineer to have Obama locked up because he holds socialist values and has all the wherewithal to wrestle political control from the Republicans, PEACEFULLY AND CONSTITUTIONALLY?

Only the communist fitted the profile.

Not true. Any left-leaning, socialist, nationalistic, anti-colonial political platform would have been a threat to British colonial policy.

The question still remains: Were the Cold Store arrests based on security or political considerations?

And the answer from the Kew documents is clear: political. And a very brutal, very opportunistic operation at that, considering the long years that many of the top adversaries were held.


Cold Store was a gold opportunity by old man to put away his former allies.

Now you see it. And not just old fart. It was expedient for the Brits as well, for different reasons of course.


But his allies were no pussies neither were they ordinary social activist. They played a game and lost to a ruthless man. A man who had no ideology or dogma.

Of course they were no pussies. They were hardened politicians fighting for — in their eyes — a noble cause: freedom from colonization and independence, and socialist state policies, built upon the political and constitutional legacy of the British. A lot of the English-educated socialists were more inspired by Roosevelt's New Deal and the British Labour Movement than by Mao and Lenin. Talk to Drs Poh Soo Kai and Lim Hock Siew and you'll know where they stood.

They lost to a ruthless man for one reason: while they were committed and fervently devout to the socialist cause, they had something that old fart didn't have: principles and integrity. That was their Achilles' heel, the lot of most leftist politicians. They may have charisma, oratory, intelligence, leadership and organizational abilities, but their idealist personality made it impossible to succumb to the kind of Machiavellian shenanigans that a bright amoral thug like old fart could get up to.

When a man of principle fights a devious thug on the political battlefield, the latter almost always has the upper hand. Ditto in the office.


During that time, you had to make tough and hard choices. It was not a time for any peaceful social activist movement. The only way to get rid of the British was to force them out.

One can force a colonial power out through a variety of ways, some violent, some non-violent (Ghandi's campaign of non-cooperation, non-violence and peaceful resistance).

There was however no evidence — and the Brits admitted as much — that these people were planning to use violence to usurp power.


The peaceful social activist would not have been a threat to anyone. There must be a basis for them to be conceived as a threat.

Repetitive. See above. And for the last time, don't misquote me. I never used the phrase "social activists"; throughout my discussion I've described the key Cold Store detainees as leftist and socialist politicians.

When you make a mistake once, it can be attributed to ignorance. When you deliberately keep misquoting a forummer's words despite his informing you, then it can't be anything but sheer dishonesty and a shabby attempt to win an argument through deceit.
 
Dear Yellow

I have seen read comet in the sky and the problem as such was that much of the debate can be superceded by the fact that as Wade acknowledges the British finally came round to the notion based on new unspecified evidence before cold store that LCS was a communist whether peaceful, or whatever.

The problem with Wade is two fold. and here is where he conflates the two without providing proof. His research is based in large part on declassified excerpts, and yet after much discussion between london SG and Australia when the conclusion was that LCS was a communist, he prefers to use the term left without any justification.

You can't just say that LCS was a leftist and not communist and use declassified excerpts which call LCS a peaceful communist without justifying your switch in terms. He has clearly not stated why he believes LCS was a peaceful leftist versus the peaceful communist stated within the ISC papers of which he has only quoted bits.

Now if we are to leave the flawed premises aside and specifically look at whether LCS was a leftists or a communist. I would like to point out the following as Ching Peng himself has stated. I believe that LCS background was in the trade unions to.


Chin Peng ' My Side of History Pg 407

" I cannot with any degree of accuracy place a figures on the number of people we controlled among the Singapore voting public in 1959. But I can certainly say that most of the island's workers SYMPATHIZED with the left wing trade unions and MEMBERS of these unions well appreciated they were under the CONTROL of the CPM. "

Ching Peng idid pg 409

1961 Resumption of Armed Struggle because of CPC support.

" Ah Hai in Sadao thought it was and loss no time in signalling back his willingness to lead a reignited armed revolt, Musa was highly enthuiastic about the idea Siao Chign Supportive ... I fell in line"



Locke
 
Let other judge. They can read and tell where you have qualified your position.

You still have not answered the question. Who are the nameless communist that were detained.

Please don't write long essay and repeat the same thing.


Athen it can't be anything but sheer dishonesty and a shabby attempt to win an argument through deceit.
 
I mean, in some overseas courses on development economics and politics, Singapore is still praised for its devleopment model and leadership as opposed to the pro free market, less government views of the West and the World Bank and IMF. Now these are not taught by some simple academic but by well known scholars such as Ha-Joon Chang and Joseph Stiglitz and those in Think Tanks such as the Overseas Development Institute.

Hello, where have you been? Singapore has veered so far from its socialist roots that today it's on the far right... a classical model of neo-liberal economics.

The Thatcherite privatization of essential services, utilites and health institutions, the excessive focus on GDP growth as a measure of progress, the ardent pro-free trade, pro-free market stance, the widest Gini coefficient in the developed world coupled with the one of the lowest disposable incomes, ridiculously pegging politicians' salaries to the free market, the complete dominance of our economy by MNCs and GLCs, the pathetic dearth of local SMEs, gov't policies totally driven by the profit factor and GDP growth, one of the lowest direct taxes but highest indirect taxes in the world, 47% of GDP comes from corporate profit...

If you knew where Stiglitz stood on these matters, you'd know that you'd be insulting the Nobel Laureate for pushing Singapore as his developmental model.

But there's one key difference between Singapore and the neoliberal Anglo states: they have much less government. In this respect, the tentacles of the government reaching out to everything from land to public companies to private enterprise (to the tune of 75% of the economy) resembles a big-gov't socialist state. Except for one thing: there's no redistribution of wealth and social safety net here.

We're therefore on the opposite end of the spectrum from socialism: right-wing, neoliberal, illiberal, fascist.
 
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You are avoiding the issue. Writing long voluminous comments about the political spectrum is not answering the question or addressing the issue. No points for such stuff.

Keep it simple and to the point.

Hello, where have you been? Singapore has veered so far from its socialist roots that today it's on the far right... a classical model of neo-liberal economics.

The Thatcherite privatization of essential services, utilites and health institutions, the excessive focus on GDP growth as a measure of progress, the ardent pro-free trade, pro-free market stance, the widest Gini coefficient in the developed world coupled with the one of the lowest disposable incomes, ridiculously pegging politicians' salaries to the free market, the complete dominance of our economy by MNCs and GLCs, the pathetic dearth of local SMEs, gov't policies totally driven by the profit factor and GDP growth, one of the lowest direct taxes but highest indirect taxes in the world, 47% of GDP comes from corporate profit...

If you knew where Stiglitz stood on these matters, you'd know that you'd be insulting the Nobel Laureate for pushing Singapore as his developmental model.

But there's one key difference between Singapore and the neoliberal Anglo states: they have much less government. In this respect, the tentacles of the government reaching out to everything from land to public companies to private enterprise (to the tune of 75% of the economy) resembles a big-gov't socialist state. Except for one thing: there's no redistribution of wealth and social safety net here.

We're therefore on the opposite end of the spectrum from socialism: right-wing, neoliberal, illiberal, fascist.
 
Singapore was the closest to the neo-liberal model but even then it's fromative economic strategy from the 1950s to the 1980s was still akin to parts of the "Asian Developmental Model" (H-J Chang in fact argued that Singapore went against most aspects of neo-liberalism)

Yes today's pparty policies have embraced neo-liberalism but still maintain a high degree of control. If Singapore went straight for the neo-liberal path--Africa, Latin America and Eastern Europe inthe 1980s to 1990s--the economy would not have been grown with such rates.
 
<Ha-Joon Chang has always struck me as a Johnny One Note as he has basically recycled the same idea over and over again in book after book, article after article, and presentation after presentation. Essentially, Chang gives a modern spin on Friedrich List's idea that, having ascended to the top of the ladder in the global political economy via the use of tariffs, subsidies, and other supports, industrialized nations are keen on "kicking away the ladder" by promoting the concept of free trade asking developing countries that haven't reached a similar stage of development to play by rules that disallow the use of such supports. Since the ladder has already been kicked away, they obviously can't progress to a similar level of development--or so he says.>

ipezone.blogspot.com/.../ha-joon-chang-free-trade-child-labour.html

I agree with him after going thro' several of his papers.
 
You are avoiding the issue. Writing long voluminous comments about the political spectrum is not answering the question or addressing the issue. No points for such stuff.

Keep it simple and to the point.

Strange. I was addressing steffychun's post on a totally different matter from Cold Store, but you had to stalk me.

Still smarting over not knowing 'social activist' from 'socialist politician'?

Do us all a favour. Go get yourself a good political dictionary.
 
I was pointing out to your habit of writing long stories and evading the issue. So who were the communists in that lot? Surely the bombings, burnings, assassinations, the riots etc were done by someone. If they were not done by the people who you classify as non-violent, then who was responsiblefor it . Maybe it was the school children from the Chinese Middle School and it was spontaneous.


Strange. I was addressing steffychun's post on a totally different matter from Cold Store, but you had to stalk me.

Still smarting over not knowing 'social activist' from 'socialist politician'?

Do us all a favour. Go get yourself a good political dictionary.
 
This is your very 1st posts and those are your words. If those detained under Operation Cold Store were not planning any violence, who then was responsible for the bombings, the riots that was part of the landscape, the assasinations etc. Until 70s, buses were still bombed.

Why would the authorities detain people not associated with violence and detain peace loving folks.

Please don't write long stories about political systems. You started this debate about they being non-violent and you manage to take Locke on a academic run but you still have not answered the questions.


Sam is right. Those detained under Operation Cold Store were socialists, and there was no evidence whatsoever that they were planning any violent activities, based on declassified documents from the British and Australian archives.
 
If Singapore went straight for the neo-liberal path--Africa, Latin America and Eastern Europe inthe 1980s to 1990s--the economy would not have been grown with such rates.

If you're talking about the first decade of Singapore's economic development, yes, there were many aspects that went against the classical neoliberal model imposed on newly independent countries by the IMF, World Bank and the Western powers. In fact, I've alluded to some aspects which could even be described as socialist, even though the PAP had always been rightist in its orientation post-Barisan.

With one exception: the seeds of the over-reliance on MNCs and state-owned enterprises to drive economic growth today were sown in the early years when the PAP sought to jump-start industrial development and technology transfer by opening the doors wholesale to MNCs, with scant attention paid to supporting local enterprise and home-grown innovations.

This coupled with the increasing neo-liberalisation of the economy from the '80s onwards created what some economists today call the 'myth' of the Singapore miracle: High growth rates, wide income disparity, EIC-deficient, MNC-SE dominated economy, stunted SME sector, high living costs, one of the poorest paid workforces in the industrialized world.

So instead of comparing ourselves with post-colonial states riven apart by the Development Project imposed on them by the Western powers, why not compare ourselves with the other 3 Dragons: South Korea, Taiwan and HK?
 
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If those detained under Operation Cold Store were not planning any violence, who then was responsible for the bombings, the riots that was part of the landscape, the assasinations etc. Until 70s, buses were still bombed.

I still stand by my words: the declassified papers have shown no evidence — on the British side — that those arrested had planned and were planning to conduct acts of violence. Therefore the arrests were illegitimate.

Unless you think it's OK to arrest people and hold them indefinitely based on suspicion, hearsay, third-party accounts, slippery slope assumptions (leftist = socialist = communist = violence), the legitimacy of Cold Store is hard to defend.

My stand has been consistent from first to last. I apologize if, unlike yourself and lockeliberal, I don't have the talent to shapeshift, create straw men and change my stand as I'd change underwear.


Why would the authorities detain people not associated with violence and detain peace loving folks.

Because — as I've repeated ad nauseum — the arrests were for POLITICAL, not SECURITY reasons.

Why were 'Marxist' conspirators arrested in Operation Spectrum if they were peace-loving folks not associated with violence, and not even Marxist in the first place?

Same answer: POLITICAL

Are you also implying that old fart detained Francis Seow because he was inciting violence? That anti-establishment figures are always arrested on the sole basis of violence, for security reasons?

God, you guys have been brainwashed by PAP propaganda.

Don't be naïve and think that while old fart was a ruthless wily bastard, the Brits were angels. They were also looking out for their geopolitical interests. If an opportunity came up for them to rid themselves of less compliant politicians who were nationalistic, anti-colonial, anti-merger and bent on socialist policies which clashed with neoliberal imperatives of the Western Development Project, would they not also take advantage of it?
 
I was pointing out to your habit of writing long stories and evading the issue.

I was never avoiding the issue. Rather, you guys kept shifting the ground of discussion.

The issue was, and still is:

1. Were the arrests legitimate, i.e. based on irrefutable evidence the colonial office and ISC possessed that there was a security basis to the operation?

2. What were the real motives behind Cold Store? If not for ostensible security reasons of containing violence, could it have been used as an expedient for political ends?
 
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