Breaking: Tan Jee Say & Ang Yong Guan to join SPP

[ray_of_hope]

Lina has done well in some speeches but they make up a minority of her speeches which had also contained speeches that were horrible. If she had one speechwriter, that is hardly substantial. You can join NSP or SDP and they have more better speechwriters.

Granted that this might be the case. But there is a widespread perception that she has confounded the low expectations of her. I contend that this has only been possible because she has had inputs from others. Thus, Kumaran Pillai, wrote of her: "Non-Constituency Member of Parliament Lina Chiam has also been speaking more actively than her peers in parliament. She has championed several issues and not afraid to ask the hard questions." Pillai was obviously taking a dig at WP, yes, no? Of course, I do not agree with his view. But because expectations of LC were very low from the start, and of the WP MPs very high from the start, you get all such commentary based on perceptions and surface impressions.

 

[steffychun]

Granted that this might be the case. But there is a widespread perception that she has confounded the low expectations of her. I contend that this has only been possible because she has had inputs from others. Thus, Kumaran Pillai, wrote of her: "Non-Constituency Member of Parliament Lina Chiam has also been speaking more actively than her peers in parliament. She has championed several issues and not afraid to ask the hard questions." Pillai was obviously taking a dig at WP, yes, no? Of course, I do not agree with his view. But because expectations of LC were very low from the start, and of the WP MPs very high from the start, you get all such commentary based on perceptions and surface impressions.

She has no constituency to take care of. WP MPs have to take care of their own--they have no large PAP funded PA/RC .

 

[metalmickey]

I would not describe SPP as a "shell of a party", as it has parliamentary representation, albeit 1 NCMP.

Do you seriously think all those intellectually heavy speeches delivered by Lina Chiam were written by her? Certainly I doubt that her husband, who is really quite ill, would be able to assist much in drafting such speeches. To me, she is getting substantial input for her parliamentary speeches by people who know what they are talking about. Perhaps Leong Sze Hian, and a few others. LSH might not have any problems with TJS, but that might not be the case with a few other longstanding members who might be eyeing an SMC that SPP has claims to contest. (This is not Potong Pasir but Hong Kah North.)

With Chiam See Tong, it's always more about the person than it's about the party. You are talking about a guy who has fallen out of every single CEC that he's been a part of. The Bishan Toa Payoh team, where he presumably put all his best people, is almost gone, and a few joined Ben Pwee. It'll be interesting to see who's going to tussle for Bishan Toa Payoh in 2016 - SPP or DPP. I certainly wouldn't mind seeing a Tan Jee Say - Ang Yong Guan - Chiam See Tong - Leong Sze Hian dream team in that place.

I never thought that Lina Chiam was responsible for her own speeches. I remember Alex Au was reporting on a pre-2011 election television special that came the closest to a televised debate with representatives from all parties, and Lina Chiam struck him as being the least impressive of the lot.

 

[yellowarse]

You are not correct on this. TJS had disclosed several times of his contact with WP just before GE2011. However, his story as to what transpired has varied. That is one reason, among others, why I cannot support this man. He had said at GE2011 that he did not wish to be part of WP as he would be going up against his friends in WP GRCs, most notably George Yeo at Aljunied.

He did not seek to join WP prior to GE2011, partly because of his old buddy George Yeo, but mainly because WP was not the right fit for him ideologically. (By then he had already prepared his economic rejuvenation paper, which was liberal by Singaporean standards.)

After the GE he said that he left his cellphone number with Sylvia Lim but she did not contact him (i.e. return his call). Then subsequently, he said that WP has a policy of not accepting people at short notice, or words to that effect.

My understanding is that he tried contacting Sylvia Lim after the GE, not to ask for admission to WP, but to get her support for a pan-opposition alliance he was mooting.

Incidentally, if I am not wrong, Michelle Lee is now with WP.

No longer. She helped out at HG BE, and left. She'll probably join TJS at SPP.

 

[tanwahp]

He did not seek to join WP prior to GE2011, partly because of his old buddy George Yeo, but mainly because WP was not the right fit for him ideologically. (By then he had already prepared his economic rejuvenation paper, which was liberal by Singaporean standards.)

My understanding is that he tried contacting Sylvia Lim after the GE, not to ask for admission to WP, but to get her support for a pan-opposition alliance he was mooting.

I read his book "A Nation Awakes" and by what I gather, ray_of_hope is right. He was informed that WP had firmed up their 23 candidates and that was a hint that he would not have a space.

If what you got was from TJS own mouth, then he should have elaborated more clearly in his book.

No longer. She helped out at HG BE, and left. She'll probably join TJS at SPP.

From my sources she has migrated with her husband to some Asian country where the husband works as a lawyer. If it is true she will not be able to serve in any party.

 

[tanwahp]

Granted that this might be the case. But there is a widespread perception that she has confounded the low expectations of her.

Not to put her down. My own networks and talking to people does not indicate such a perception, much less a "widespread perception". She is hardly mentioned when we are on politics and opposition politics. We'll agree to disagree.

 

[yellowarse]

From my sources she has migrated with her husband to some Asian country where the husband works as a lawyer. If it is true she will not be able to serve in any party.

Based in an Asian country. Not migrated.​

 

[3_M]

Not to put her down. My own networks and talking to people does not indicate such a perception, much less a "widespread perception". She is hardly mentioned when we are on politics and opposition politics. We'll agree to disagree.

The most important thing is to maintain continual presence and visibility on the ground in PP. Most heartlanders won't bother with what going on in parliament.

 

[ray_of_hope]

He did not seek to join WP prior to GE2011, partly because of his old buddy George Yeo, but mainly because WP was not the right fit for him ideologically. (By then he had already prepared his economic rejuvenation paper, which was liberal by Singaporean standards.)

My understanding is that he tried contacting Sylvia Lim after the GE, not to ask for admission to WP, but to get her support for a pan-opposition alliance he was mooting.

No longer. She helped out at HG BE, and left. She'll probably join TJS at SPP.

You continue to be incorrect on all these matters.

On TJS being MOST INTERESTED in joining WP to contest GE2011 but given the cold shoulder, please see this link to a piece in Today online: http://forums.fuckwarezone.com.sg/e...an-jee-say-rejected-wp-during-ge-3529526.html

Note the highlighted portion. It is clear that WP was TJS' first choice prior to GE2011. No doubt about that. And SDP was his choice of last resort.

Also, I concur with tanwahp: as far as I know some opposition members are based in other countries. They have not emigrated. They retain their citizenship and can be expected to return in the hope of contesting at the next GE. An example of this is James Gomez. Previously he was in Australia. Now my sources tell me he is based in a Malaysian University. Unless someone tells me otherwise, I am sure he will be an SDP candidate the next time round.

 

[yellowarse]

Also, I concur with tanwahp: as far as I know some opposition members are based in other countries. They have not emigrated. They retain their citizenship and can be expected to return in the hope of contesting at the next GE. An example of this is James Gomez. Previously he was in Australia. Now my sources tell me he is based in a Malaysian University. Unless someone tells me otherwise, I am sure he will be an SDP candidate the next time round.

tanwahp said that Michelle had "migrated with her husband to some Asian country where the husband works as a lawyer. If it is true she will not be able to serve in any party."

Michelle has not emigrated. She's still a Singapore citizen. She's based in a foreign country where her husband works. I stand by this fact.

 

[yellowarse]

You continue to be incorrect on all these matters.

On TJS being MOST INTERESTED in joining WP to contest GE2011 but given the cold shoulder, please see this link to a piece in Today online: http://forums.fuckwarezone.com.sg/e...an-jee-say-rejected-wp-during-ge-3529526.html

We can conjecture on whether he was 'most interested' in joining WP, but my information is that he never approached them.

 

[metalmickey]

The most important thing is to maintain continual presence and visibility on the ground in PP. Most heartlanders won't bother with what going on in parliament.

That's to get you into the door. After that, if you're going to sit back in parliament and let the PAP walk all over you what's the point? Might as well get a PAP guy sitting in your seat.

You need both types of pressure: the WP with their grassroots organisation to put pressure on the PAP by taking away their seats, and the occasional firebrand in parliament who's good at asking all the uncomfortable questions and rocking the boat. People who only want to do the first part shouldn't criticise those people who want to do the second.

If you want to squeeze the PAP's balls you need both side of the pincer.

 

[Asterix]

We can conjecture on whether he was 'most interested' in joining WP, but my information is that he never approached them.

No need to guess. In this book, link of which is provided below, TJS said he approached WP before PE 2011 and was given the cold shoulder. Something to do with party policy that must be member for a certain number of years before one can be put up as an election candidate.

TJS also mentioned that:

- CSM sent him a 加油 SMS when he discovered that TJS will be contesting on the SDP ticket in Holland
- He approached Walter Woon and Michael Huang for legal opinion on whether he met the conditions to be a Presidential candidate

http://www.ethosbooks.com.sg/store/mli_viewItem.asp?idProduct=281

 

[Cosmos10]

That's to get you into the door. After that, if you're going to sit back in parliament and let the PAP walk all over you what's the point? Might as well get a PAP guy sitting in your seat.

You need both types of pressure: the WP with their grassroots organisation to put pressure on the PAP by taking away their seats, and the occasional firebrand in parliament who's good at asking all the uncomfortable questions and rocking the boat. People who only want to do the first part shouldn't criticise those people who want to do the second.

If you want to squeeze the PAP's balls you need both side of the pincer.

Wow, bro metalmickey, very good rebuttal there. I think you should seriously consider joining a political party soon And of course, the NSP, PAP, SDP, SPP or WP will welcome you with open arms (in alphabetical order).

Wait, I think I cannot speak for the WP because if we believe the words of our WP brothers here, the WP's entry standards are so high that only a select few can actually meet their standards. Just joking :p

P.S. My dear SBF brothers who are WP supporters, I would appreciate it very much if you could have a sense of humor, and please do not zap me just because I think and write differently from you. Thanks

 

[3_M]

That's to get you into the door. After that, if you're going to sit back in parliament and let the PAP walk all over you what's the point? Might as well get a PAP guy sitting in your seat.

You need both types of pressure: the WP with their grassroots organisation to put pressure on the PAP by taking away their seats, and the occasional firebrand in parliament who's good at asking all the uncomfortable questions and rocking the boat. People who only want to do the first part shouldn't criticise those people who want to do the second.

If you want to squeeze the PAP's balls you need both side of the pincer.

Asking probing questions are basically about appeasing to the opposition voters. U go too far left the middle ground will perceive it as confrontational, but when you steer towards the center, ideological based opposition voters will think u are being to soft. So it delicate balancing act.

The foundation of politics lies in strength not on how vocal you are. . U can be very vocal but PAP can still trample on you anytime precisely because you don't have enough seats.

But winning seats is all about grassroots politics, more so in our case when we have compulsory voting which means votes from people who are politically apathetic counts alot. U don't win over them with ideology or by your performance in parliament which is very far away from them. Compare a candidate who wasn't around and only appear once in a blue moon vs someone who always greets you in your neighbourhood, someone who helps u in your parking fines, who stand a better chance to win over the neighborhood aunties and uncles? People like them will likely vote for status quo than change.

With compulsory voting, PAP performance is always about turnout rate during election rather than actual support level. To break this mode, u need continual ground presence and personal touch to fight with PAP grassroots machinery.

 

[yellowarse]

No need to guess. In this book, link of which is provided below, TJS said he approached WP before PE 2011 and was given the cold shoulder. Something to do with party policy that must be member for a certain number of years before one can be put up as an election candidate.

Go read the book. He spoke with Chen Show Mao (whom his wife knew from JC days) about his (TJS) forming a central resource pool for sharing with all opposition parties, WP included. The relevant passage:

"... I told him [CSM] of my interest in gathering a group of people to form a central resource pool for sharing with all opposition parties. I explained its non-partisan nature and said I was also talking about it with other people, including the National Solidarity Party. In fact some in the central pool could also be deployed to WP by mutual agreement if it wanted."

He was not interested in joining WP. As for the myth that he gave Sylvia Lim his phone number, here's the passage in question:

"Sylvia Lim, WP's chairlady, might have my mobile phone contact and could call me if necessary. She did not call."

TJS also mentioned that:

- CSM sent him a 加油 SMS when he discovered that TJS will be contesting on the SDP ticket in Holland

That's correct. Not because CSM was from WP, but because both were friends from their banking days, long before they entered politics.

- He approached Walter Woon and Michael Huang for legal opinion on whether he met the conditions to be a Presidential candidate

That's correct.

 

[metalmickey]

Asking probing questions are basically about appeasing to the opposition voters.

Wrong. Asking probing questions is about changing the behaviour of the government.

The problem is that you are still fixed in the mindset of "how are we going to get seats in parliament" and not yet the deeper question of what people in parliament are actually supposed to do.

Parliament is a lawmaking body. The other function of parliament is to decide who forms the executive, but forming the executive is so far away that we don't really care about it now. And even then, the cabinet of a government is like the rider of a horse. If the rider cannot control the horse then it's also no use.

They will be debating issues that have more impact on the kopitiam uncles than help with the parking tickets and kissing babies. Things like education policy which determines what kind of schools people go to, health policy which determines how many people get to see the doctor. Most important in the day and age we live in are housing policy, which determines our most serious problem - the supply and demand of new flats and therefore the price of housing. And the direction of the economy, such as what businesses should make up the Singapore economy. And they can also mobilise people to write letters to their PAP MPs to complain about stupid decisions.

Also, people who say that nobody really cares about government policy didn't really factor in the protests against the 6.9 million population white paper.

Opposition people are voted in because people have the perception that they have the power to change things. But you have to realise that people who take seats away from the PAP to do exactly the same thing as what the PAP would have done are actually worse than the PAP, because they take away all the time and energy and hope that you put into "the opposition" and you end up with exactly zero results. Now it's not true that the WP are not doing or saying anything in parliament, but clearly they could use a little more help in their ability to criticise PAP policy.

At the moment, it's not even about what people think about the opposition performance. The biggest factor in the polling numbers, even now, is how dissatisfied people are with the PAP. And the WP is still ahead of the other opposition parties in terms of brand name recognition. But it's a very big shame if in this interim period, when the opposition is gaining strength but still in the minority, the opposition doesn't have a voice in the running of Singapore. That means that the PAP can carry on like the good old days. They can keep on entrenching the interests of the ruling class, the elites. It will be even more difficult to reverse the policies when the time comes for the opposition to be powerful enough to do so. You're almost forgetting why we have an opposition in the first place.

Why a "world class parliament"? They've sold very well the idea that more opposition in the parliament is a good thing. But why is it a good thing?

 

[Asterix]

Go read the book. ...

I read the book and stand by my recollection, which as you have pointed out is largely correct. Whether it is a formal or preliminary test the water kind of approach, it is still an approach. Anyway, there is no point tying ourselves in knots over a minor point. The book is available at Kino in Takashimaya, if I am not wrong, near the cash counter at the entrance which is near a dining establishment. Easy to find, 'cos the side facing the counter and most visible is filled with Old Fart's books, the other side right at the very bottom and most inconspicuous is where the Oppo books are nicely hidden. Kino also must give face to Old Fart.

 

[metalmickey]

"... I told him [CSM] of my interest in gathering a group of people to form a central resource pool for sharing with all opposition parties. I explained its non-partisan nature and said I was also talking about it with other people, including the National Solidarity Party. In fact some in the central pool could also be deployed to WP by mutual agreement if it wanted."

That is very interesting. Basically this means that he was a proponent of the "opposition unity" idea that made Chee Soon Juan look like such an ass in January. As well as that "the WP can call me if they want to" bullshit that made the SDP look like a bunch of political blunderers. Also the remark about non- partisan nature of what he was trying to achieve, when you put that in the context of Vincent Wijeysingha leaving the SDP in favour of going into non government organisational, issues-based stuff.

It seems like Chee Soon Juan, Tan Jee Say and Vincent Wijeysingha used to share a vision of what the SDP wanted to achieve that subsequent events had shown that it maybe wasn't that feasible, or WP wasn't buying it, or even that the SDP should maybe avoid it. This "non-partisan multiparty coalition" thing sounds a lot like the "you get me the votes, I make the policy" thinking that Chee Soon Juan verbalised in January ("you run the town council, I get the parliament seat") that brought him so much ridicule. Maybe the WP doesn't buy it because they know that the policy faction of a party would eventually "swallow" the grassroots faction. Or maybe they have their own ideas which are very different from the SDP.

That means that it will be very interesting to see what Tan Jee Say does with the SPP, whether it's just a convenient horse for him to ride into town on, or he's actually going to be more of a people person this time. Because if you remember what you saw in the papers during GE 2011, I saw Chee Soon Juan, Vincent Wijeysingha and Ang Yong Guan talking to people and shaking hands. But TJS was just this guy standing around in the background.

There's nothing really wrong with the WP policy that you have to put in the hours and the time and effort into the party before you even come near to candidacy. But it is not for everybody. There are people who are willing to make those sacrifices to further the interests of the party, and there are people who have the ability to understand the workings of government and make the most of the platform that your seat in parliament gives you to influence the workings of the world. Unfortunately most of the time these are different people, and the person who is able to do both things is truly exceptional.

And rare.

 

[Liquigas]

.........But winning seats is all about grassroots politics, more so in our case when we have compulsory voting which means votes from people who are politically apathetic counts alot. U don't win over them with ideology or by your performance in parliament which is very far away from them. Compare a candidate who wasn't around and only appear once in a blue moon vs someone who always greets you in your neighbourhood, someone who helps u in your parking fines, who stand a better chance to win over the neighborhood aunties and uncles? ...

If what is said here is true then it is the reflection of the sorry state of affairs of our local politics. In matured democratic societies people voted in their representative so as to have someone to speak in parliament on their behalf on various issues affecting them. More importantly, the representative must be prepared to grill the ruling party if they are deemed to have not done enough for the people or are adopting policy initiative that are perceived detrimental to the state. Voters should not be just voting for someone who is only capable of taking care of municipal issues ....