Crumbling of Singapore?

Fook Seng said:

Have a political system that is fair to all and not only to themselves will certainly go a long way towards building a stable political environment, so that whoever takes over - PAP, WP or a coalition of whatever flavor, the rules are fair to all and a non-performing government can be democratically overturned.

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That kind of fair system is great and would serve Singapore better than the present PAP self serving system.

TracyTan866 said:

will the racial polarisation in SG contribute to SG's crumble?

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Nope,it never had been in the entire history of Singapore.

I am not plucking this out of the air like LKY.I am saying this after having read books written by our early pioneers.Including biography of David Marshall,The one hundred years of Singapore published in 1919 and One hundred years history of Chinese in Singapore by Song Ong Siang in 1923 and etc.

This is the amazing thing about Singapore.Even as far in 1900 it had been recorded that more than 26 languages were spoken here.If you look at early post cards printed on or about 1912 most of them feature a Hindu Temple and a moslem mosque standing side by side in South Bridge Road.Both still stands.Mind you,this is the current Chinatown we are talking about.

Bigotry,I am certain must have existed.But the politicization of races did not really exist.Obviously Sam will point out to the various segment of races who lived in their own compounds.Or even the Maria Hertogh riots that erupted in dec 1950.The riot actually is the the foreunner of the early freedom fighters which the British gave a religious twist----there is a whole book on this if you bother to read.

Racial polarization in SG is PAP politicking...Even the the recent racial riots in SG in the 60s is attributed to politics.Because UMNO of Malaysia point fingers at PAP and PAP points fingers at UMNO.Notwithstanding it still is the matter of politics.

Fook Seng said:

I was only referring to the period when the import FT strategy kicked in. If Chinese actually increased their percentage before that, then what we see today must be an anomaly and that something is drastically wrong in how we analyse the situation.

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Spot on.Something is drastically wrong here.The anomaly between what PAP had been telling us all this while and what the statistics reveal is indeed shocking.It would be more interesting to look the racial % between the Malays and Chinese prior to 1960.Yet,the figures between 1960 to 1980 is indeed quite shocking.The % of Malays is constantly and continuously decreasing while the Chinese % is increasing.And it was from the 80s onwards that LKY harped on this subject that Chinese were giving less birth.

Maybe he was preparing the ground for something else?Because it was during this period that Deng visited Singapore and Mandarin campaign began.Coincidentally the feud between Devan Nair and LKY also erupted at this time.

I speculate LKY was preparing the ground for PRC to migrate here as far as the 80s--Malays became the convenient scapegoats..Because the element of Mandarin campaign to the extend of even pinyin our Chinese surnames is quite telling.What transpired between Deng and LKY is anybody;s guess but it broke up a long lasting friendship between Devan and Harry Lee.

Alot have been said about the Chinese and Malays racial mix. What about the Indians? Official statistics say they constitute 9% but with the influx of nationals from India over the past decade, the figure should be much higher now. Take the train or look around at your workplace or neighbourhood and you can see that there are alot more Indians now compared to last time. And in the political arena, the Indian representation is out of proportion ; there are 4 Indians in a cabinet consisting of 15 ministers.

Liquigas said:

Alot have been said about the Chinese and Malays racial mix. What about the Indians? Official statistics say they constitute 9% but with the influx of nationals from India over the past decade, the figure should be much higher now. Take the train or look around at your workplace or neighbourhood and you can see that there are alot more Indians now compared to last time. And in the political arena, the Indian representation is out of proportion ; there are 4 Indians in a cabinet consisting of 15 ministers.

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This is an interesting question and the answer is much more complex.To simplify,the Indian ratio versus others in Singapore had been like a yo yo. In 1819 Indians overtook the Malays to become the second largest ethnic group. In 1860, they formed 16% of the population.This is manly due to unlike Chinese or Malays they returned home to India,A practice even older Singaporean of ethnic Indian still follows today.Among Chinese only Samsui women did likewise returning to die in China.

However,during the colonial Singapore Indian figure stabilize between 7% to 9.5% except for a brief period when the British forces quit Singapore along went many Indians either to UK or India.But the 80s was a trying period for them.Very much because they bore the brunt of LKY feud with Devan Nair.The educated lot fled Singapore and that showed statistically as 6.3%.

Now,the new wave of Indians came because of PAP politics.PAP figured that India like China will be the emerging superpower.Hence they need enough in our population to connect with these giants.Besides,more and more PRC imports have to be balanced.And the other thorn is that too many China nationals in Singapore may not sink well with Delhi administration.Hence more North Indians than South Indians were imported into Singapore.Today they around 9.2%.

Liquigas said:

Alot have been said about the Chinese and Malays racial mix. What about the Indians? Official statistics say they constitute 9% but with the influx of nationals from India over the past decade, the figure should be much higher now. Take the train or look around at your workplace or neighbourhood and you can see that there are alot more Indians now compared to last time. And in the political arena, the Indian representation is out of proportion ; there are 4 Indians in a cabinet consisting of 15 ministers.

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Indian is a bit complex. Overall their percentage representation has increased, I believe around 10 % now, but the new entrants are largely Northern Indians, quite a different stock. The original Indian Singaporeans don't think their numbers have increased much.

Leongsam said:

The 1% I don't agree with are his language policies. People should be left to speak whatever they choose. The government shouldn't get involved. Market forces can sort things out.

Language is like computer code. It moves with the times. Nobody programs with Cobol anymore and nobody outside of the Vatican bothers to learn Latin. People learn languages based on need. If Mandarin is necessary to survive and prosper, people will learn the language as a matter of course.

In HK, prior to 97, nobody spoke Mandarin. It wasn't necessary. Today it's a different story.

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This is another rare occasion I agree with u, Mr Leongsam. I absolutely subscribe to all you said and to add, it was a mistake to do away chinese dialects too. This is because Mandarin is only a variant of dialects and the people who can speak dialects need not have to work so hard to learn Mandarin. Without basic proficiency in dialects, chinese are learning Mandarin as a totally new language thus making it very difficult. LKY doesn't realise this because he's a Peranakan who doesn't speak dialects at home but malay. Again I must clarify I've nothing against Peranakan, I have them among many of my friends, relatives in fact. I'm just making the point that learning mandarin is much more difficult for the babas and bibiks because they don't have a foundation in chinese dialects.

red amoeba said:

as I mentioned before, election 2011 has been a watershed,..PAP realised they need to change albeit unwillingly. LHL desperate play on emotions before the election day by apologising on public media says that much. You would never see his dad do that - the furthest he went was "i stand to be corrected"

after the election, you can sense they are becoming more "reactive" albeit again, this whole monstrous organisation is taking a long time to get around it. The electorate has given them another 5 years to do something and something they must do.

immediately, you see LKY, WKS, MBT all exiting the stage. And if you look at the cabinet, it is actually a little lightweight....in the sense that LHL moved some inexperienced birds into the cabinet positions at expense of experienced birds.

WP winning a GRC opens the opportunity for many others young or otherwise to try to enter politics...

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Yes, WKS, MBT and Raymond Lim did exit the stage immediately. But not LKY hor. Don't be fooled by it. It doesn't matter if he's in the cabinet or not. He could well be named as the parliament's toilet attendant and it doesn't matter one bit. Every cabinet decision is still being run by him and all decisions have their source of origin earlier policies implemented by LKY. The real Hard Truth is that as long as LKY is still alive, he's still the one in charge.

freedalas said:

it was a mistake to do away chinese dialects too. This is because Mandarin is only a variant of dialects and the people who can speak dialects need not have to work so hard to learn Mandarin. Without basic proficiency in dialects, chinese are learning Mandarin as a totally new language thus making it very difficult. LKY doesn't realise this because he's a Peranakan who doesn't speak dialects at home but malay.
I'm just making the point that learning mandarin is much more difficult for the babas and bibiks because they don't have a foundation in chinese dialects.

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I agree with you and Sam. It was a mistake to do away with dialects. It was the link we would have with our parents and possibly the only link with our grand parents. It was a conduit through which culture could be passed. Learning a language without the cultural understanding and armed with only the Cultural Shock handbook can never be the same as the real Works. I am fortunate because I come from an earlier era.

Regarding the Chinese dialects issue, I was told by the elders when I was young that during the earlier days, the Chinese community was divided into their respective dialect groups minding their own business and lives. For example, if I can recall correctly, the Cantonese would mainly resided in Chinatown area, whereas the Hokkien would resided around the telok ayer area. As for Teochews, Hainanese, and Hakkas, I can't recalled, but I believe they had their own "territories". This kind of communal arrangement has not changed much even after PAP comes into power in the 60's. The Chinese community at that time would more likely referred themselves by their dialect group first rather than their race. I am sure those who are in their 60's now can relate to that. This was probably one of the reasons why PAP wanted to do away with the dialect language and use Mandarin to consolidate the Chinese population.

Candide said:

Regarding the Chinese dialects issue, I was told by the elders when I was young that during the earlier days, the Chinese community was divided into their respective dialect groups minding their own business and lives. .

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Actually hor I rather stay out of this topic.But the ignorance that prevails tempts me to butt in.The intensity of Chinese dialect group rivalries was astonishingly murder some.Take for example this riot between Hokkiens and teochews in May 1854.lasted more than 10 days.Official count about 400 dead.Other historians put the figure as high as 1000....All for what?An argument over the price of rice !!!!!(compare this with the racial riot in the 60s with Malays--which PAP and Sam is frightening the shit out of us)

Clan rivalry starts from the day a Chinese boards the ship----the coolie is well accosted by the snake head.If there is any that is lost there were even camps set up near the port proximity to give them protection.Some structures are still standing--one is at end of Telok Ayer street ,a church.

Because Chinese did not see themselves as Chinese.Their loyalty lies along the secret society they belong to.Every Chinese belong to one SS or another,which was the biggest headache for the British to keep law and order.Since no Chinese policeman will arrest another clan member publicy which will result in instant riot.Hence the British used the Sikhs as their best option.

Candide said:

Regarding the Chinese dialects issue, I was told by the elders when I was young that during the earlier days, the Chinese community was divided into their respective dialect groups minding their own business and lives. For example, if I can recall correctly, the Cantonese would mainly resided in Chinatown area, whereas the Hokkien would resided around the telok ayer area. As for Teochews, Hainanese, and Hakkas, I can't recalled, but I believe they had their own "territories". This kind of communal arrangement has not changed much even after PAP comes into power in the 60's

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What you are referring to was an archaic era in the 50s and earlier when the population was less than a million and most people have very little education. Of course they communicated with each other in dialects, their mother tongues, and Malay. People will tell you they were more friendly with each other because of the kampong spirit. Most people have since moved out of Chinatown into HDB and SIT flats before that. The Speak Mandarin policy came much later when most people were already housed in HDB flats and able to speak English and studied a second language like Mandarin in school. People who spoke good dialects had no problem learning Mandarin. Just look at Malaysia as an example. Singapore which prides itself for having a Chinese majority surprisingly loses to Malaysia in this one significant aspect.

Hi Nice-Gook. You are very well-read and I enjoy reading most of your posts which are very informative. I must say this is a very intellectual forum if one can overlooks the bickering and likes.

Fook Seng said:

What you are referring to was an archaic era in the 50s and earlier when the population was less than a million and most people have very little education. Of course they communicated with each other in dialects, their mother tongues, and Malay. People will tell you they were more friendly with each other because of the kampong spirit. Most people have since moved out of Chinatown into HDB and SIT flats before that. The Speak Mandarin policy came much later when most people were already housed in HDB flats and able to speak English and studied a second language like Mandarin in school. People who spoke good dialects had no problem learning Mandarin. Just look at Malaysia as an example. Singapore which prides itself for having a Chinese majority surprisingly loses to Malaysia in this one significant aspect.

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Hi Fook Seng. I understand where you are coming from. I, too, find it a pity that many of the young Singaporeans nowadays have lost the ability to converse in their respective dialects. Take myself for example, I used to be able to speak Cantonese when I was a child, but after my maternal grandparents passed away (my mother's side are Cantonese), I do not have the chance to speak the dialect as my father's side are Hokkien. This loss of ability to converse fluently in Cantonese affects me in my later years whenever I travel to Hong Kong for work and leisure. I find it a pity because I see myself as half Cantonese.

Sabo By PAP !

TracyTan866 said:

Bad omen to the pap?

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No lah. This one lah. That's what you get if yer cross a Merlion with the PAP logo.

Fook Seng said:

That proves my point. As both Chinese and Malays percentage shares drop, where does the slack goes to? Indians.

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Yes, race can be a main crumbling factor. the race issue can be so sensitive and volatile that if the Parliamentary MPs lack wisdom, can incite much hatred and animosity among Singaporeans. So the govt has to tread carefully and not aggravate the matter further. I wonder whether race based help groups like MENDAKI, CDAC, SINDA are helpful to racial integration will will they further polarise race factor

Nice-Gook said:

Pls don't throw red herrings here and there ,I had read of Singapore's early history much more than anybody here.Talking about past eh?

Did you know that 1950 or on about the Chinese poulation was about 51%?....Did Singapore wither because of it?

Did you know that Singapore attracted skilled people from Malacca who were vastly non Chinese in the first 30 yrs after Raffles landed ---was not Singapore built to be the pearl of Asia?

Did you know there was much more riots and mayhem contributed between Hokkien Clan and Teochew clan rivalries in the first 100 years after Raffles landed than after 1960?Even the number of dead far exceeds by 500% than all racial riots between Malays and Chinese put together?

Besides,if Malays are the real enemies to Chinese progress why are millions of Chinese from Malaysia and Indonesia do not want to trade place with Singapore?Not to mention almost all Malaysian Chinese,even at CEO of MNC level,still prefer to go back to Malaysia after working in Singapore for more than 40 years.!

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good recount of history which singaporeans can learn from

Nice-Gook said:

Sam for heaven stop living in your own world.Or heaven forbids,bipolar dis order?

Look at the statistics provided by the World Bank--it not what I churned out.

The total population of Singapore's population is about 5 millions.

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yes..5.18 m in 2011..too over crowded!!!

Windsor said:

I refute that....WP is not PAP and their road to parliament was strewn with obstacles, courtesy of their opponents. They are definitely not cut from the same cloth as the PAP MP's. All of them added their weight and definitely not passengers.

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I agree that WP MPs faced obstacles and hindrances and discrimination by govt agencies such as PA, HDB. I wonder whether CDCs and FSCs are politically neutral?

It's sad that many govt agencies still have third world government mentality. These include PA, HDB, MCYS, SSC, LTA, the Judiciary, etc. They are set up to serve Singapore and Singaporeans but are unashamedly bias. When will these top civil servants live up to their Oath of Office? Until then, Singapore remains stuck at third world governance because of abuse and manipulation by the pap.

In the long run, such mentality contributes to the crumble

Nice-Gook said:

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The point being that LKY 's Malay as our enemies is merely a boogey man.

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Did LKY use the following bogeymen to frighten Singaporeans?

1. racial issue...malays
2. religious issue ...muslim
3. economic issue..global competition and neded for cheap foreign labour
4. social issue..poor TFR
5. political issue...SG will die without the pap
6. psychological issue...pap's cronys are the best in SG
7. military issue..got to defend against MY and Indon
8. Singaporean issue...need NS to control SG population into subservience
9. cost of living...keep cost of living high so that Singaporeans have to work very hard to survive, leaving them no time to think abt higher issues such as human rights and govt mismanagement.
11. materialism..keep Singaporeans chasing for material well being..they will be easily controlled once they are on that path
12..etc

A frightened and overworked population is easier to control. Are these issues real or are they cooked up by LKY to presevere PAP's dominance?

How sad that many singaporeans believe all the propaganda dished out by lky