Living in JB

LeMans2011 · Dec 5, 2011

checkers said:
Forgot that Singaporeans aren't allowed to drive a MY car into SG unless one can engaged a local driver.

Guess it will have to be when in MY, drive the MY car. Your plan is great and affordable. Cheers!

Please be careful about this, i heard the fine is quite heavy

checkers · Dec 5, 2011

LeMans2011 said:
Please be careful about this, i heard the fine is quite heavy

Sorry...what fine is this? Is it pertaining to engaging a local driver to drive the MY car into Sg or a singaporean driving the MY into Sg?

aangsc · Dec 5, 2011

horizonhills said:
Maybe can marry a mistress and she can become your driver of Malaysia cars as well? I know of people who have wives on both sides and admire their time management skills.

it's cheaper to maintain a driver than a mistress . Beside driving you around, sometime will drive you nuts with demand. :biggrin:

Men can't think properly when temptation overtake logic.

Grago · Dec 5, 2011

aangsc said:
it's cheaper to maintain a driver than a mistress . Beside driving you around, sometime will drive you nuts with demand. Men can't think properly when temptation overtake logic.

LOL, Bro aangsc, You da MAN :smile:

. The short euphoria doesn't compensate for the incessant demand. Take GOLF, 4 hours of blissful heaven or tortuous HELL, depending on how your playing on that day. Couple that with a couple of like minded 'hackers' you will be having a great time. Probably continue to the 19 hole....... :smile:

arsenal · Dec 5, 2011

... Find one that is pretty and willing to do housework..

horizonhills said:
Maybe can marry a mistress and she can become your driver of Malaysia cars as well? I know of people who have wives on both sides and admire their time management skills.

Investor · Dec 5, 2011

curiouscat said:
When investing in real estate rental price checks help avoid investing in bubbles. No investment strategy is perfect. If you invest in a new area early, it can be that rental prices do not yet reflect long term value (say rental prices near an announced MRT station but one that won't actually be in service for 5 years). But ignoring rental prices is risky (just believing long term things will keep going up - this was a big part of the problem in the USA bubble - prices way out of line with rental values).

For this reason, I am skeptical, of investing without rental market checks.

Agree that No investment strategy is perfect. There's no investment which can guarantee 100% risk free.
It's not wrong to investment in a property when the economy of that area reach the stage of self-sustainability.
The difference here is just whether one is a high-risk or low-risk investor.
Low risk investors will be like what you've mentioned above, invest in Nusajaya a few years later when they can see rental market. In stock market, these investors will only invest in Blue Chips or high dividend counter.
High risk investors, like myself, prefer to look for and predict the future potential of my targets and invest early when others are fearful. If my prediction is accurate, I'll reap the handsome reward as my appetite is BIG. I'm totally not interested in Blue Chips even if the dividend is 10% per year. I want more than that kinda return.

Investment is all about making money. For this case of Nusajaya's properties, as long as we can make profit from Nusajaya, it's not important whether or not the rental market is there now. In fact, we know that the rental market is not here yet but we are actually investing in the future of Nusajaya.

Another important and interesting thing to know is that we can never stop Humans' greed. It is this greed which will bring in the investors when Nusajaya comes alive by end of next year. This greed will continue to push prices up for the next few years, even before Nusajaya sees strong rental demand due to strong economy as stated above by yourself. By around 2014-2015, if I see that Nusajaya's development is not that fantastic and demand driven by greed is dwindling, I still will have plenty of time to sell off my excess units for profit as prices would already be near double of my buying price. Keeping just one unit for own weekend stay. But if Nusajaya continues to be an investment magnet and a hot topic in this region, I'll definitely hold on for longer period like 10-20 years and decide on my exit along the way.

curiouscat said:
It is also true I think it is not yet a fully functioning rental market in these new housing estates. It will likely be at least 3-5 more years to get a decent idea of where rental prices will be going and how much rental demand there is.

For high risk taker like me, my investment would already have yielded handsome profit by that time when those new wave of low-risk investors comes in.
Then again, that's if my vision on Nusajaya is correct. But I see a very very high chance for that to happen as Nusajaya doesn't need to be very successful before the greed driven demand comes, Nusajaya just need to come alive by next year to attract that wave of investors. I'm just the earlier greedy one if you prefer :smile:

curiouscat said:
Properties can sell to investors from Singapore (and many other places) that buy the properties to use as vacation homes, retirement homes... for there long term plans). This can even be sustainable over the long term (a significant portion of units bought this way) BUT it is much riskier as an investment than if the units bought for investment are rented out and a fair market rate can be determined to evaluate purchase prices.

To me the key to the investment potential of JB real estate is most importantly, JB having jobs that allow people to buy or rent these houses. It seems to me at the current time there are not enough of those jobs. The second key is Singaporean's buying (and working in Singapore - commuting). The 3rd pool of users of the real estate are retirees (Malaysians, Singaporeans and others). I would put vacation homes... as 4th, after all those others.

At the current time many sales seem to be going to investors. Those investors can sell to other investors but that is not a sustainable model for increasing prices. Investors have to sell (or rent) to users of the properties.

The most important strategies for Malaysia to encourage the real estate market in the Iskandar region therefor to me are 1) attracting high paying jobs 2) making it easy to commute and travel between Singapore and JB and 3) making it reasonable for foreigners to invest.
1) is important for high cost housing (which is mainly what this board discusses)
2) is important for both those that want to commute and for say Singaporeans that want to retire to JB (or buy their parents a place in JB) - For some commuting times are important for others they just need it convenient for say weekly trips.
3) both making it reasonable for foreigners to buy real estate (increasing demand) and reasonable for large investments (factories, back office high rises...) that will create high paying jobs. It seems to me a big way to jump start things is to get companies in Singapore to move some back office jobs to JB. This can both decrease the companies cost and provide good paying jobs in JB. It also is a big incentive for those people to live in JB. Many people commute from JB to Singapore but some don't want to do that, if their high paying job can be located in JB that would make more happy to live in JB.

For several of these education for kids would be useful. Would encourage high income workers that want schools for their kids to consider the area. Medical care would be good both for high paying jobs and especially for retirees (and young families).

Several recent posts mention renting to expats (and whether this market is realistic...). I see one big potential market (that is small now): exapts on MM2H visas http://www.mm2h.gov.my/ This is an attractive visa option that isn't really available in Singapore (unless you are very wealthy). Right now many MM2H live in KL or Penang but JB is a very attractive option (especially with the proximity to Singapore). It seems to me at this time MM2H expats are not really considering JB. I think there could be a very large increase in this demand over time.

There's nothing wrong to be a safe and careful investor, also nothing wrong to be a high-risk and early investor who tries to predict the future.
In order to make profit from Nusajaya's properties, we don't need Nusajaya to reach the stage of full success and full development At ALL.
I would like to repeat that Nusajaya doesn't need to reach it's full development stage to see demand in properties which will push prices up and giving you profit. By the time it comes alive next year, greed driven demand will arrive.

I'm talking about this just on a 'profit-making' point of view. Not about sustainability of Nusajaya as that's another view totally.

Oh one Very important thing though, for such investment to be successful, one has to choose the correct(exact) location carefully because time is important as we need to see that increase in price fast after committing(low rental yield as safety factor in early stage of a new city). Choosing the wrong location will cause you to make a loss if you don't have the holding power.

arsenal · Dec 5, 2011

Good analysis!
Heard a lot of these MM2H expats are living in Leisure Farm...

curiouscat said:
When investing in real estate rental price checks help avoid investing in bubbles. No investment strategy is perfect. If you invest in a new area early, it can be that rental prices do not yet reflect long term value (say rental prices near an announced MRT station but one that won't actually be in service for 5 years). But ignoring rental prices is risky (just believing long term things will keep going up - this was a big part of the problem in the USA bubble - prices way out of line with rental values).

For this reason, I am skeptical, of investing without rental market checks. It is also true I think it is not yet a fully functioning rental market in these new housing estates. It will likely be at least 3-5 more years to get a decent idea of where rental prices will be going and how much rental demand there is.

Properties can sell to investors from Singapore (and many other places) that buy the properties to use as vacation homes, retirement homes... for there long term plans). This can even be sustainable over the long term (a significant portion of units bought this way) BUT it is much riskier as an investment than if the units bought for investment are rented out and a fair market rate can be determined to evaluate purchase prices.

To me the key to the investment potential of JB real estate is most importantly, JB having jobs that allow people to buy or rent these houses. It seems to me at the current time there are not enough of those jobs. The second key is Singaporean's buying (and working in Singapore - commuting). The 3rd pool of users of the real estate are retirees (Malaysians, Singaporeans and others). I would put vacation homes... as 4th, after all those others.

At the current time many sales seem to be going to investors. Those investors can sell to other investors but that is not a sustainable model for increasing prices. Investors have to sell (or rent) to users of the properties.

The most important strategies for Malaysia to encourage the real estate market in the Iskandar region therefor to me are 1) attracting high paying jobs 2) making it easy to commute and travel between Singapore and JB and 3) making it reasonable for foreigners to invest.
1) is important for high cost housing (which is mainly what this board discusses)
2) is important for both those that want to commute and for say Singaporeans that want to retire to JB (or buy their parents a place in JB) - For some commuting times are important for others they just need it convenient for say weekly trips.
3) both making it reasonable for foreigners to buy real estate (increasing demand) and reasonable for large investments (factories, back office high rises...) that will create high paying jobs. It seems to me a big way to jump start things is to get companies in Singapore to move some back office jobs to JB. This can both decrease the companies cost and provide good paying jobs in JB. It also is a big incentive for those people to live in JB. Many people commute from JB to Singapore but some don't want to do that, if their high paying job can be located in JB that would make more happy to live in JB.

For several of these education for kids would be useful. Would encourage high income workers that want schools for their kids to consider the area. Medical care would be good both for high paying jobs and especially for retirees (and young families).

Several recent posts mention renting to expats (and whether this market is realistic...). I see one big potential market (that is small now): exapts on MM2H visas http://www.mm2h.gov.my/ This is an attractive visa option that isn't really available in Singapore (unless you are very wealthy). Right now many MM2H live in KL or Penang but JB is a very attractive option (especially with the proximity to Singapore). It seems to me at this time MM2H expats are not really considering JB. I think there could be a very large increase in this demand over time.

Aisanbo · Dec 5, 2011

IMHO, the big picture factors for property to rise in JB are
- create jobs
- improve connectivity within and to SG
- reduce crime and the perception of high crime

I believe the IM planning and story is aligned with above.
Implementation and political risks are now the question mark.

Investor · Dec 5, 2011

horizonhills said:
sidetrack a bit.. once the entrance/exit of the roundabout near GOLF is ready, access to the Coastal highway is surely a breeze. Can save about 1-2km if I am not wrong. Now we have to go all the way out to the main entrance and drive 1km to the entrance to the highway back to Tuas

But the new exit can only lead you to Coastal Highway which is going towards the direction of Danga Bay, you'll still need to make a u-turn at Horizon Hills interchange.

curiouscat · Dec 5, 2011

Investor said:
Low risk investors will be like what you've mentioned above, invest in Nusajaya a few years later when they can see rental market. In stock market, these investors will only invest in Blue Chips or high dividend counter.
High risk investors, like myself, prefer to look for and predict the future potential of my targets and invest early when others are fearful. If my prediction is accurate, I'll reap the handsome reward as my appetite is BIG. I'm totally not interested in Blue Chips even if the dividend is 10% per year. I want more than that kinda return.

Agreed. Speculative investing should have higher returns given the higher risks. And it makes perfect sense for smart investors to have a portion of their portfolio in speculative investments.

Investors just need to be careful that they don't take risks that they don't understand. It is easy to miss risks when you are just dreaming about the potential. Today investing in Nusajaya is more certain than it was 5 years ago. That opens it up for many more investors. Which pushes up prices. And means buying today is at a higher cost than a few years ago. And likely 3 years from now it will be even more certain, which makes it a safer investment, but as you say safer isn't always better (some of the speculative return will already be gone).

I would agree with you most likely you can sell 2 years from now at a profit. But if things are not going well - the global economy really crashes, the MRT extension is shown to be delayed, Newcastle isn't getting filled up, JPO starts to have empty store spaces, projects are delayed or cancelled... it could well be very few buyers are around at all, and you can't get out without loses. I don't think this is likely, but it is possible.

Investor said:
Investment is all about making money. For this case of Nusajaya's properties, as long as we can make profit from Nusajaya, it's not important whether or not the rental market is there now. In fact, we know that the rental market is not here yet but we are actually investing in the future of Nusajaya.

I agree that investing before the rental market develops definitely can be wise. I am just saying it is riskier. Which is fine for investors that can take that risk. And those investors should be rewarded well, if things go well. But if things don't they can lose a great deal.

Investor said:
Another important and interesting thing to know is that we can never stop Humans' greed. It is this greed which will bring in the investors when Nusajaya comes alive by end of next year. This greed will continue to push prices up for the next few years, even before Nusajaya sees strong rental demand due to strong economy as stated above by yourself. By around 2014-2015, if I see that Nusajaya's development is not that fantastic and demand driven by greed is dwindling, I still will have plenty of time to sell off my excess units for profit as prices would already be near double of my buying price. Keeping just one unit for own weekend stay. But if Nusajaya continues to be an investment magnet and a hot topic in this region, I'll definitely hold on for longer period like 10-20 years and decide on my exit along the way.

This is wise but riskier than people realize. Markets can move very quickly. Often getting out ahead of the rush to the exit doesn't work as people thought it would. There is nothing wrong with this strategy, just people should realize they may not be able to sell before the market declines (maybe they will, but assuming you can is very risky).

Investor said:
For high risk taker like me, my investment would already have yielded handsome profit by that time when those new wave of low-risk investors comes in.
Then again, that's if my vision on Nusajaya is correct. But I see a very very high chance for that to happen as Nusajaya doesn't need to be very successful before the greed driven demand comes, Nusajaya just need to come alive by next year to attract that wave of investors. I'm just the earlier greedy one if you prefer

I agree. I don't see many areas anywhere than have as good potential as Nusajaya (if things go well, returns can be excellent over the next 20 years). But there is still real risk. This is a great situation for investors that can afford to take risks.

I do think that investors can often forget to diversify their investments. And some investors that lost a great deal in the stock market then get wary of that and then only want real estate (or visa versa). These types of decisions are risky (the less diversity the more risk you take on). A smart investor that chooses to take a few high risk positions and suffer the consequences if they are wrong, is fine with me. Those that are not very sophisticated investors that take on much more risk than they realize is the group I feel sorry for. They can do well, but when they don't they can lose everything. Many in the USA didn't realize how risky their real estate investments were (and they never had a chance to sell - though many planned to sell some of their investments to limit loses). That is sad. As long as investors understand what they risk (especially with leverage - like you have if you put only 20% down or in investments build on potential v. experience) it makes great sense to invest in real estate in Nusajaya, I think.

And you can reduce the personal investment risk to yourself, if you can do something like retire to the area and use your house that way. If instead you make a fortune you can sell it and buy somewhere else. But if you would be satisfied living in it, that lets you reduce the downside risk as you can use it as your house if it doesn't pan out to be a great rental.

yonglip · Dec 5, 2011

curiouscat said:
Several recent posts mention renting to expats (and whether this market is realistic...). I see one big potential market (that is small now): exapts on MM2H visas http://www.mm2h.gov.my/ This is an attractive visa option that isn't really available in Singapore (unless you are very wealthy). Right now many MM2H live in KL or Penang but JB is a very attractive option (especially with the proximity to Singapore). It seems to me at this time MM2H expats are not really considering JB. I think there could be a very large increase in this demand over time.

Bro. MM2H is avial in Singapore also. In fact a few SG bros here on the programme. U don really need big bucks to partake in MM2H...just RM300K in FD will do..After 1 year, can take out part of the monies for house buying some more. To me, the only advantage of MM2H is there is no need to come back to SG every 30 days to chop passport. No other advantage at all.

Cheers.

ShawnLow · Dec 5, 2011

yonglip said:
Hi shawn bro...i was in Bukit indah on Sat. had wanted to go to JPO but was raining heavily..so headed back to SG instead.

Visited BH...i was grinning from ear to ear after seeing the whole place turning out better than i expected bro.

Cheers.

Yo yonglip bro u should hav call me instead so we can go together. Im going again tis sat, u kno the road? Wan me lead? =)

I have been wanting to visit our house but keep raining and too much dirt on the road so untill now havent see what is the progress now. Thx for the update. Better than what u expect?? U expected them very awful n bad? I hightly double they will open a small road into Bh in future just before the perling toll, it will b super convenient already

Investor · Dec 5, 2011

Bro Curiouscat,

I totally enjoyed our discussion and fully agree with everything which you've mentioned above. You are a wise man and look at things with an open mind, you look at things both sided and plan for consequences. As what I learnt from bro Batok Seri, some people are bigots, they only believe in their own reasoning and force it on others. In a room with 10 intelligent people, most of the time you'll get more than 11 views on the same topic, that's perfectly fine and there are always more than one way in looking at the same thing and all can be right in their own way. Have a great week :smile:

yonglip · Dec 5, 2011

ShawnLow said:
Yo yonglip bro u should hav call me instead so we can go together. Im going again tis sat, u kno the road? Wan me lead? =)

I have been wanting to visit our house but keep raining and too much dirt on the road so untill now havent see what is the progress now. Thx for the update. Better than what u expect?? U expected them very awful n bad? I hightly double they will open a small road into Bh in future just before the perling toll, it will b super convenient already

Don need to lead la...nowadays JB's road so developed and nice bro..worse end up in KL only ma..haha.

I think its the same with all developments everywhere...when you see the house under construction,..very messy...see already sian..but as it gets built up....you see the nice house taking shape....the rubbish slowly clearing away....feeling good bro.

In SG all the houses i have stayed in so far samma resale...i.e. 2nd hand..this is my first 'VIRGIN' house...so excited...haha..

cheers bro.

ShawnLow · Dec 5, 2011

yonglip said:
Don need to lead la...nowadays JB's road so developed and nice bro..worse end up in KL only ma..haha.

I think its the same with all developments everywhere...when you see the house under construction,..very messy...see already sian..but as it gets built up....you see the nice house taking shape....the rubbish slowly clearing away....feeling good bro.

In SG all the houses i have stayed in so far samma resale...i.e. 2nd hand..this is my first 'VIRGIN' house...so excited...haha..

cheers bro.

Last week was my 1st time to go there, so i go the normal road from SENAI airport there. Now only i know we can go by secondlink highway and very striaght forward too, i heard there is no sign board and those few sign board are very small?

u mean they do a litle cleanup already? wow thats cool~i must go and see how is it now~finally things are going smoothly and house will be ready very soon~yea~once finished must faster renovate and move in, cant wait! lol

curiouscat · Dec 5, 2011

Aisanbo said:
IMHO, the big picture factors for property to rise in JB are
- create jobs
- improve connectivity within and to SG
- reduce crime and the perception of high crime

I believe the IM planning and story is aligned with above.
Implementation and political risks are now the question mark.

Good points. I agree cleaning up crime and the perception of it are important. Many things influence people's perception of crime - some of which are not really crime - dirty streets will make people think it is less safe. It may in fact not be less safe but people' by and large will get that impression. To fight the perception of crime you not only have to reduce crime but reduce things that make people believe crime is high.

The New York City subway system is safer than being on the streets (and was so 10 years ago). 10 years ago people thought it was much less safe. They have been working on making the reduction of crime there a top priority for 20? years in the subway. One factor was cleaning them up dramatically and increasing lighting... If uniformed officers do things like solicit bribes that has a hugely negative impact on people's perceptions. The act itself is criminal, so it is increasing crime directly, but even more when people believe they are at risk of crimes directly from the police that will make them greatly increase they opinion of the amount of crime in an area.

New York City actually has done quite a bit of very interesting work on fighting crime over the last 20 years. They still have a lot of crime but they have put in place many measures that helped a great deal to make people safer and make people feel much safer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CompStat

Dealing with crime and the perceptions of crime is complex and should be part of the overall development plan for a city. JB gets more focus on this than many places (anyplace being compared to Singapore is going to have a big challenge - so being right across the water gives JB a ready comparison that is not easy to beat). I would actually see this as an opportunity. Gladly accept the challenge of making life as safe (or safer) than Singapore and then go about making that happen. As you get closer to that aim your citizens will have many benefits and it will be very attractive to investors.

I completely agree that the risks are implementation and political (and economic to some extent - globally, areas that need to attract investment have to be wary). More and more countries are realizing the sensible economic strategies for long term growth. Now it is about which of those countries implement it well (the big risks in implementation are knowledge, experience and politics). Some countries also have an issue getting investment money - JB should not have that issue (in any event JB is in much better shape on that issue than most other locations).

ShawnLow · Dec 5, 2011

One photo first for the night view of JPO~

mathstub · Dec 5, 2011

Hi Bros and Sis,

I have some legal documents regarding the purchase of property I need to send back to the law firm in Johor Bahru by courier. Do you have any suggestions of a good courier service provider which has a lot of pick-up points in SG?

Thanks for your help.

Grago · Dec 5, 2011

On the current topic of JPO, fellow forummers, you do realize that what you are buying are 2nd quality goods, last season or two fashion items or rejects from the boutiques that do not meet their standards! You are not geting what's currently being sold at the various boutique's either in Singapore, Milan, London or New York...... As to the amount you are paying for the item, most if not all are either made in CHINA or somewhere in the PACIFIC RIM. the cost are fractional compared to the amount that are asked. Don't misunderstand me, I've nothing against factory outlets, BUT very much dislike the fact the nowhere around the outlets or for that matter in any of the advertisement is there mention of this. I wouldn't be surprise that there will be shoppers who go there thinking they are getting the SAME kind of item that is sold in the boutiques in Singapore or the places that are mentioned BUT at a SUBSTANTIAL discount!!!!!!!!! As to the argument put forth that there is shipping cost, agree but not as would have thought from the so called Fashion centre where the brands originate BUT from the factories here in the EAST. So the prices.... Rm1000 for a pair of jeans is astounding, as it is highly likely an imperfect Item or a 2 nd quality that is rejected from the boutique. So buyer beware!!!!!!! You do not necessary get what you are paying for........

arsenal · Dec 5, 2011

Can try SingPost..should be the cheapest.. unless you want Fedex, DHS..

mathstub said:
Hi Bros and Sis,

I have some legal documents regarding the purchase of property I need to send back to the law firm in Johor Bahru by courier. Do you have any suggestions of a good courier service provider which has a lot of pick-up points in SG?

Thanks for your help.

Living in JB

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