Is it an offence to play poker (involving money) at home?

[shelltox]

depending on who you are poking, a malaysian politician is ontrial for poking the wrong places

 

[jixiaolan]

Hi guys... sorry I need an answer, not too sure how the system works over here and the police force ain't helpful at all...

MY QUERY to THE POLICE:
Hi,

Is it legal to play poker within the confines of my place (a private apartment), along with a group of friends, coupled with gaming chips, which are exchangeable for real money, on an occasional basis?

Regards,
Keith

THEIR REPLY:
Dear Sir

We refer to your email of 14 December 2010.

The Police do not give legal advice. The police only gives advice if an
incident has been reported and to determine if the matter require police
action/attention.

Thank you and regards.

Yours faithfully

Well, the police has given subtle advice. It is an offence to gamble with real money even at home but nothing is an offence until someone decided to report you to the authority.

 

[Soul_Reaper]

That's a very sound advice.

The government can't be coming after the person since it has pocketed some money, in various forms such as GST, taxes, fees etc

I remember several years ago in my old housing estate there was a neighbour whose flat always has mahjong games on...... sometimes up to four tables running simultanously and even going on for 24 hrs non-stop on weekends.

Every time whenever the residents complain and the police come.... he will stop and will resume after a couple of days.

However after some time..... even the police stopped coming despite several residents complaining about the gambling, the noise and the strangers...... and no action was taken against the gambling den operator.

Then we found out the reason why...... the gambling den operator had volunteered as a grassroots leader and was a regular sponsor for their grassroots activities.

One country.... Two systems

 

[tonychat]

Hi guys... sorry I need an answer, not too sure how the system works over here and the police force ain't helpful at all...

MY QUERY to THE POLICE:
Hi,

Is it legal to play poker within the confines of my place (a private apartment), along with a group of friends, coupled with gaming chips, which are exchangeable for real money, on an occasional basis?

Regards,
Keith

THEIR REPLY:
Dear Sir

We refer to your email of 14 December 2010.

The Police do not give legal advice. The police only gives advice if an
incident has been reported and to determine if the matter require police
action/attention.

Thank you and regards.

Yours faithfully

Have you try to ask the police if it is against the law to spit on the floor of your house or throw cigarette on the floor of your house?

 

[scroobal]

Since everyone is struggling to answer the question, I will point the way. The answer is no. You can play in your home, use money as bets etc. The max is 2 tables. It only becomes an issue if you collect money to organise it, and it is open to people who are not your friends. Neighbours tend to call the police when people take up parking spots, make noise or you allow your house to be used as a club. Poker is played amongst many people across the island including sr civil servants, professionals, businessmen etc. The police have better things to do as there arenumerous gambling dens all the time springing up

 

[jixiaolan]

Since everyone is struggling to answer the question, I will point the way. The answer is no. You can play in your home, use money as bets etc. The max is 2 tables. It only becomes an issue if you collect money to organise it, and it is open to people who are not your friends. Neighbours tend to call the police when people take up parking spots, make noise or you allow your house to be used as a club. Poker is played amongst many people across the island including sr civil servants, professionals, businessmen etc. The police have better things to do as there arenumerous gambling dens all the time springing up

Show me which part of the law provide you with such allowance.

 

[halsey02]

Since everyone is struggling to answer the question, I will point the way. The answer is no. You can play in your home, use money as bets etc. The max is 2 tables. It only becomes an issue if you collect money to organise it, and it is open to people who are not your friends. Neighbours tend to call the police when people take up parking spots, make noise or you allow your house to be used as a club. Poker is played amongst many people across the island including sr civil servants, professionals, businessmen etc. The police have better things to do as there arenumerous gambling dens all the time springing up

New NTUC supermarkets springing up, more 'gambling dens'... ha ha ha ha ha

 

[GoldenDragon]

The police have better things to do as there arenumerous gambling dens all the time springing up

True until the two casinos started operations. Undeground gamblers frequent the casinos today when they have money. When invited to visit underground dens, they say it is very dangerous - police will arrest. When they run out of money, they visit the underground dens. They are able to borrow. This time, you won't get to hear them expressing their fear of arrest.

2 months ago, only 3 underground dens were in operation. According to one of the operator, no need for police to raid their dens. They die a natural death. No business.

 

[eatshitndie]

True until the two casinos started operations. Undeground gamblers frequent the casinos today when they have money. When invited to visit underground dens, they say it is very dangerous - police will arrest. When they run out of money, they visit the underground dens. They are able to borrow. This time, you won't get to hear them expressing their fear of arrest.

2 months ago, only 3 underground dens were in operation. According to one of the operator, no need for police to raid their dens. They die a natural death. No business.

are there any poker games at the 2 casinos? i don't see poker card games mentioned on the websites. over in reno and vegas, texas hold'em and pai gow poker have several tables per casino. there are poker rooms dedicated to 2/4, 5/10, 10/25 and no limit pots.

 

[Ramseth]

MY QUERY to THE POLICE:
Hi,

Is it legal to play poker within the confines of my place (a private apartment), along with a group of friends, coupled with gaming chips, which are exchangeable for real money, on an occasional basis?

Regards,
Keith

THEIR REPLY:

Dear Sir

We refer to your email of 14 December 2010.

The Police do not give legal advice. The police only gives advice if an
incident has been reported and to determine if the matter require police
action/attention.

Thank you and regards.

Yours faithfully

MY QUERY to THE POLICE:

Hi,

Is it legal to spray grafitti on annoying visitors' vehicles within the confines of my carpark
(a condo carpark), along with puncturing their tyres, coupled with smashing their windscreens,
on an occasional basis?

Regards,

369

THEIR REPLY:

Dear Sir

We refer to your email.

The Police do not give legal advice. The Police only gives advice if an
incident has been reported and to determine if the matter require police
action/attention.

Thank you and regards.

Yours faithfully

999

MY QUERY to THE POLICE:

Hi,

Thank you sir. Then I'll make sure that the owners of the vehicles
would not bother you with any report.

Regards,

369

 

[scroobal]

For an ex-policemen, you are sure one blur chap. Most laws around the world are enacted not in vacumn. There can never be anything that is black and white. Typically allowance is made via right to make appropriate regulations and that power is usually vested in a minister..

There is no law that states that you are allowed to operate a brothel in Geylang, Petain Road but MHA actually regulates this including the medical check-ups.

In fact there is a law prosecuting people who live on the immoral earnning of a prostitute but I am sure you probably think that brothel keepers in Geylang are doing charity work and provide free rooms for prostitute for altrustics reasons.

Too much education seems to be bad things for some people.

The 2 table policy was issued by MHA in mid 1980s and has never changed and it is still the operating guideline.

There is no law to prevent you from collecting commission from both the buyer and seller, so how come it is now forbidden. The law - Estate Agents Act does not mention it but CEA has specified it. So how?

Still blur?

Show me which part of the law provide you with such allowance.

 

[cathylmg]

To put it simply:

Don't ask me for advise. You want to do don't let anyone complain. If you kenna complain then police will come down and give you advice(give warning

 

[jixiaolan]

scroobal,

You got this very bad habit of getting personal with people who disagreed with your views. From where you have came from, it is not very difficult for me to understand why. Before i even want to engage you further on this thread, pls prove that i am an ex-cop and perhaps on that part that suggested i am highly educated.

 

[busdriver111]

Golden Dragon is correct to say that the answer is contained in the Common Gaming Houses Act. The other conjectures about water money, two table limit, etc, all quite incorrect.

If you look at the Act, there are two distinct types of offences : gambling in public under section 7 (not relevant here) and gambling in a common gaming house under section 8.

Common gaming house is defined in section 1, inter alia, as a place kept for habitual gaming. Therefore, private premises which are homes, offices, warehouses, club premises, etc, are usually not considered CGHs. The important factor is the primary use of the premises.

Golden Dragon, there are many cases in which CGHs are defined, even as early as 1930, in R v Fong Cheng Cheng. PP v Yap Ah Yoon and PP v Low Ah Kow are particularly instructive. Both are Yong Pung How decisions.

As for the game, it does not matter if it's mahjong, poker or bridge. Section 1 defines gaming as playing a game of mixed skill and chance for money or money's worth.

 

[busdriver111]

I think that to truly understand and interpret the provisions of the CGH Act (in particular, the definition of a CGH), one has to understand the context in which it was passed, and also it's history and other incarnations such as the colonial Ordinance No. 45. Also, it's quite obvious that this is one instance which calls for the application of the mischief rule of interpretation.

 

[Zombie]

Golden Dragon, there are many cases in which CGHs are defined, even as early as 1930, in R v Fong Cheng Cheng. PP v Yap Ah Yoon and PP v Low Ah Kow are particularly instructive. Both are Yong Pung How decisions.

Guys,
I found something on PP v Yap Ah Yoon, but I am not reading it (I rather digest some Char Siew Bao)
Anyway, thank you Busdriver111


http://www.geociti.es/CapitolHill/2299/2k500.html

1 [2062] BETTING, GAMING AND LOTTERY Gaming – 'Common gaming house', meaning of – Evidence required to rebut presumption in s 17 of the Common Gaming Houses Act (Cap 49) – Whether private residence used primarily for gaming

Summary :

On 31 July 1989 a police raid was carried out at 30B Yio Chu Kang Road ('the premises'), where the eight accused persons were playing mahjong. Chips exchangeable for money were used as stakes. The prosecution adduced evidence that mahjong games had been observed to be in progress at the premises on three separate occasions, on 4 June, 8 June and 2 July 1989, and that on two of those occasions the people entering the premises had been different from the people coming out. Further, the accused had, in their statements made under s 122(5) and (6) of the Criminal Procedure Code (Cap 68) ('the CPC'), referred to the premises as a gambling den and all admitted to the charge. At the trial the accused denied liability, alleging that they had gone to the premises to celebrate a birthday party and so were playing for fun. The learned magistrate rejected the defence and had found that all the accused had gone to the premises to play mahjong. However, the magistrate acquitted the accused on the grounds that the premises were not a common gaming house as defined in s 2(1) of the Common Gaming Houses Act (Cap 49) ('the Act'). The prosecution appealed.

Holding :

Held, allowing the appeal:

(1) it is not illegal to play games of chance for money. But it is illegal to keep a common gaming house or to game in it. A common gaming house is either a place to which the general public is able to resort for the purpose of gaming, or a place which, though barred to the public, is kept or used by the owners or occupiers primarily for the purpose of gaming;

(2) nor do the premises of an ordinary social club become a common gaming house merely because the club provides facilities for its members to gamble, and some of them habitually use the premises for that purpose;

(3) the distinction is between a bona fide social or recreation club, and one which is used ostensibly as such but which is in reality kept and used for gaming purposes;

(4) all other activities of the club must be taken into account. The conduct of activities which are not related to gaming, provided they are of sufficient scale and frequency, would be inconsistent with the assertion that the primary object of the club was gaming and tend to disprove the presumed fact;

(5) with respect to a private residence, the question must be whether it is in reality used as a private residence or it is in fact, behind the facade of a personal dwelling, primarily kept for gaming;

(6) the evidence required to rebut the presumption in s 17 of the Act would be evidence that any gaming on the premises was of the kind that owners or occupiers of private residential properties usually engage in, if they engage in it at all. There are numerous factors which may be relevant: the relationship between the persons gaming and the owner or occupier of the premises as well as between the persons inter se, whether the owner or occupier is usually involved in the gaming sessions, the frequency of the gaming sessions, how the sessions were organized, whether the sessions involved the same persons, the stakes involved and so on. None of the factors are conclusive single-handedly. It is up to the court to draw the logical and natural inference by a consideration of all the pertinent factors in a particular case;

(7) a place does not become a gaming house merely because the owner makes a practice of inviting his friends to his house to gamble;the presumption in s 17 of the Act would be rebutted if it is shown that the provision of gaming facilities was purely incidental to the primary object of the club, even if a substantial part of its revenue was derived from such gaming;in the present case, the evidence that the premises were furnished like an ordinary household and were not specially adapted to be conducive for gaming, though not entirely irrelevant, was clearly insufficient evidence to rebut the presumption in s 17.

Digest :

Public Prosecutor v Yap Ah Yoon & Ors [1993] 3 SLR 763 High Court, Singapore (Yong Pung How CJ).

2063 Gaming -- Common gaming house

 

[heartlander]

scroobal,

You got this very bad habit of getting personal with people who disagreed with your views. From where you have came from, it is not very difficult for me to understand why. Before i even want to engage you further on this thread, pls prove that i am an ex-cop and perhaps on that part that suggested i am highly educated.

I don't think the problem is with scroobal. People who have low self-esteem and feel insecure usually easily interpret stuff as personal attacks.

 

[GoldenDragon]

are there any poker games at the 2 casinos? i don't see poker card games mentioned on the websites. over in reno and vegas, texas hold'em and pai gow poker have several tables per casino. there are poker rooms dedicated to 2/4, 5/10, 10/25 and no limit pots.

eatshitndie:

Not sure about poker games at the 2 casinos. I only play baccarrat. No pai kow and si ki puay, that I am sure.

 

[GoldenDragon]

Golden Dragon is correct to say that the answer is contained in the Common Gaming Houses Act. The other conjectures about water money, two table limit, etc, all quite incorrect.

If you look at the Act, there are two distinct types of offences : gambling in public under section 7 (not relevant here) and gambling in a common gaming house under section 8.

Common gaming house is defined in section 1, inter alia, as a place kept for habitual gaming. Therefore, private premises which are homes, offices, warehouses, club premises, etc, are usually not considered CGHs. The important factor is the primary use of the premises.

Golden Dragon, there are many cases in which CGHs are defined, even as early as 1930, in R v Fong Cheng Cheng. PP v Yap Ah Yoon and PP v Low Ah Kow are particularly instructive. Both are Yong Pung How decisions.

As for the game, it does not matter if it's mahjong, poker or bridge. Section 1 defines gaming as playing a game of mixed skill and chance for money or money's worth.

busdriver111:

To the men in the street, mahjong being played is deemed gambling. The location deemed a common gaming house. What if the location changes everyday and mahjong being played by the same players. CGH? I don't think so coz that place is not habitually used as location changes everyday.

The easiest way to know where a CGH is, is to ask the operators of such a CGH! They are syndicated and provide free transport for their pool of gamblers. The seasoned operators are all known to the police. They know who operates a CGH and what game is being played.

 

[scroobal]

The two tables policy took a long while to realise as CGH can be interpreted widely. In mid 1980s, as result of pressure from social groups, clans and grassroots organisations, it was developed and announced publicly during that time.

A police officer cannot conduct raid or arrest anyone without authorisation from an Asst Supt of Police. It is one of rare occasion where a Police Officer cannot arrest or raid without sanction of an ASP. Most laws allow Police Officer to act unilaterally.

This was to stop blur officers from doing things without the knowledge of Senior Officer of the rank of ASP who knows what Policies apply. The ASP is also required by MHA policy to open a file and conduct surveillance by different officers on different occasions. None of this is in the Act.

Interestingly a Sgt has the power to stop a plane leaving and arresting someone in it for drugs etc. When it comes to CGH, even an inspector has no powers.

Gambling and prostitution are 2 activities that have an policy umbrella with MHA determining the rules. The rules are seldom disclosed. The only instance is mid 1980s for CGH.

Do read the CGH throrughly and even an idiot will realise that law actually allows anyone to be prosecuted for gambling with his wife in the confines of his home using one table. See the part about public access and then the other where no public access also you are in trouble. Does it make sense?

Go ask any lawyer and they will never give a written opinion when it comes to CGH and laws relating to prostitution.

Golden Dragon is correct to say that the answer is contained in the Common Gaming Houses Act. The other conjectures about water money, two table limit, etc, all quite incorrect.

If you look at the Act, there are two distinct types of offences : gambling in public under section 7 (not relevant here) and gambling in a common gaming house under section 8.

C