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Caring for the poor? This is what will happen if you pander to the needs of losers.

freedalas

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Re: Caring for the poor? This is what will happen if you pander to the needs of loser

Sam, I agree with what you said and your proofs with illustrations are very real but are the people asking all those you illustrated?
What the people asked for is a more listening and caring government instead of being too rigid and being tied down by their own rules and regulations when helping the poor. Rules can be broken in good faith if it enhances progress and well being of a person without criminal implication. Yes the government is helping but is their help well received and appreciated by the applicants who have to go through all those inquisitory, humiliating and lengthy procedures with no guarantee of getting it?
The people is angry with this greedy PAP government not just the neglects on the poor alone, there are many other pricky and irritating recurring issues which they took for granted and shove aside successfully by turning on a deaf ear to the people as what the betterest minister in Zorro outfit boasted.
I also agree that once welfare is given, it cannot be taken back but what the people failed to realise is that once power is given it is damned fucking difficult to take back!


Hi Rusty

Many thanks for your post. The more discerning forummers like yourself know where we advocates for more help from the PAP for the poor have all along been coming from.

We'd never asked S'pore to turn itself into a welfare state like the UK. We know fully about the situation in such countries and the perils/consequences of a system that dishes out welfare indiscriminatedly. What we are seeking is what you'd succinctly summarised in your post and never for the kind of welfarism practised in UK etc.

Leongsam and his band of clowns in desperate attempts to defend an uncaring govt's unwillingness to help the poor kept using this as an argument over and over again. That's why I never responded to whatever postings Leongsam had made here in this thread. Why bother with a mad dog that kept barking and barking the same noise. Mad dogs are meant to be ignored.

But when I read your post, I want to thank you for it as you showed a good understanding and appreciation of what the poor had to contend with a greedy and stingy govt. It's only the heartless and those without a social conscience that can't appreciate the real situation, or worse still, chose not to, for the sake of protecting their political masters.
 

Leongsam

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Re: Caring for the poor? This is what will happen if you pander to the needs of loser

Heavy reading but an excellent article that explains why helping the poor causes more harm than good.

***************

Richard W. Fulmer

The Paradox of the Welfare State
October 2010 • Volume: 60 • Issue: 8 • Print This Post24 comments

Welfare states face an inescapable paradox: The level of production needed to sustain a welfare state cannot be sustained by a welfare state. This paradox is created by policies that encourage the redistribution and consumption of wealth while discouraging its creation. In the face of such perverse incentives, living standards must fall even though, for a time, they may be maintained through borrowing. The paradox is not unique to Greece or California, nor is it a function of who is in charge. It is, rather, inherent in the internal contradictions of the welfare state itself.

The term “welfare state” is defined here as a polity that assumes primary responsibility for the care of a good number of its citizens, providing such benefits as public housing, health care, education, minimum wage rates, unemployment insurance, and financial support for the poor, elderly, disabled, and politically favored institutions, businesses, and industries.

The material well-being of any society’s people rests on the quantity and quality of goods and services they produce. All goods and services consumed by the unproductive members of society must be taken from, or paid for by, the productive. Welfare state policies ensure that the ranks of the unproductive will grow and those of the productive population will shrink, and that the productivity of the dwindling number of producers will fall. As a result, the quantity and quality of goods and services available will drop and poverty will rise. The mechanics of this decline are both straightforward and predictable.

Welfare state policies discourage saving. When government helps pay for its citizens’ big-ticket items, citizens have little need to save for the future. Banks will therefore have less money to lend, leading to lower capital investment and lower economic growth. The taxes needed to pay for public benefits reduce the ability of, and incentives for, businesses to maintain and expand production facilities. To the extent that taxes are paid by consumers, or passed on to them through higher prices, they will have less money to save, further reducing private capital.

Loss of Productivity
Minimum wage laws, unemployment insurance, employer mandates, and regulations that make it difficult to fire workers all drive up the cost of employment, resulting in less of it. High corporate taxes will drive some businesses out of the country and others into bankruptcy, further adding to unemployment rolls. Demands for protectionist legislation will become more insistent as jobless rates rise. If these demands are met, even more jobs will be lost as foreign commerce collapses amid escalating trade wars.

As benefits and benefit recipients multiply, and as the number of taxpayers declines, the latter will be less and less able to bear the ever-growing burden. Many of the most productive and adaptable will move to countries that allow them to keep more of their earnings.

While productivity increases can help offset falling production due to a declining workforce, any such increase requires either capital investments or innovative process improvements. As previously explained, however, welfare states discourage capital formation by discouraging savings. Innovation is similarly discouraged by taxes that reduce or eliminate any profits that such innovation might generate.

Depleting the Ranks
As the population of unproductive citizens grows, either through job loss or through aging, government bureaucracies will also grow to meet this rising need. In addition, as more taxes are levied to pay for the bureaucracies and the programs they administer, government tax collection agencies must expand as well. This further depletes the ranks of the productive, channeling them away from producing wealth to merely redistributing it. Civil servants are typically paid more than their private-sector counterparts and are generally able to retire earlier and on more generous pensions than employees in the private sector, further adding to the burdens of productive workers. Moreover, the growing ranks of public employees form a powerful voting bloc strongly favoring increased government spending and more government control over the economy.

Institutions will grow up around the welfare state, increasing the number of people with a stake in its continuation and growth (and further decreasing the number of productive workers). For example, advocacy groups and law firms will form to help people obtain government benefits and to demand more of such benefits. Service providers, such as tax accountants, will spring up to help people deal with increasing bureaucratic complexity.

Special interest groups like AARP will funnel campaign funds and votes to pliable politicians. These private institutions will combine with government agencies in symbiotic, mutually reinforcing alliances. Elected officials can garner votes by acting as advocates for constituents forced to deal with unresponsive public agencies. Government departments, wishing to expand their “customer base,” will work to make government support easier to obtain and available to more people.

Job loss, unpleasant in a free-market economy, is softened by government-provided unemployment insurance in a welfare state. Some will find paid unemployment agreeable and will delay their return to work, perhaps indefinitely. As more parents become wards of the State, more and more children will come to see this as normal, and generations of families living on welfare will become commonplace.

Advocacy groups and government agencies charged with providing benefits will work to reduce the stigma associated with receiving public aid and to justify taking from those who work to give to those who do not. Poverty must, therefore, be portrayed not as a consequence of self-defeating actions or poor choices—and certainly not of government action—but as the result of bad luck or oppression. Conversely, wealth must come to be seen not as the outcome of hard work and perseverance, but good luck or greed and exploitation. The very concept of virtue must be questioned and stood on its head as the Tenth Commandment morphs from “Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s goods” to “Thou shalt not have goods thy neighbors covet.”

Feedback Loops
Imagine how dangerous the world would be for a person without the ability to feel pain (as happens with certain forms of leprosy). Such a person could hurt himself terribly by continuing to walk on a badly sprained ankle or putting his hand on a hot stove without knowing it. Government largess can create a sort of moral leprosy by weakening or even destroying feedback loops linking cause and effect. As the consequences of self-destructive actions (such as dropping out of school, having children out of wedlock, or drug and alcohol abuse) are increasingly borne by others, the incidence of such behavior will rise. At the same time, as the benefits of hard work, perseverance, and integrity fall, such virtues can be expected to fade.

The philosophy underlying the welfare state, “From each according to his ability, to each according to his need,” leads people to display minimum ability and maximum need. To the extent this philosophy is actually followed—more often, wealth flows from the politically weak to the politically strong—people will band together along ethnic, gender, religious, and other lines to compete to be seen as the most needy and therefore the most worthy of a larger share of an ever-shrinking pie. This downward spiral of competitive self-destruction may well create a permanent underclass that carefully avoids success and embraces failure—that is, which acts sensibly in the face of perverse incentives. This competition for tax dollars may create deep, irreparable fissures between recipient groups and between recipients and taxpayers.

As government grows it will increasingly be seen as the answer to any and all difficulties, and people will demand government solutions to increasingly minor inconveniences. Legislatures will respond by enacting ever-more-stringent regulations on individuals and industry, further reducing adaptability, independent and entrepreneurial thought, risk-taking, and productivity. Centralized, bureaucratic rule will erode people’s self-reliance, initiative, and sense of local community.

When government begins providing people with goods and services they can provide for themselves, it launches a self-reinforcing trend that will eventually become unsustainable. Once the practice of taking from one citizen to give to another becomes established, politicians will be unable to resist the urge to bribe voters with their own tax dollars. As legislators’ rewards for spending other people’s money grow, spending will grow.

The time it will take a country to spend itself into bankruptcy depends on its initial economic strength and the strength of its culture. But whether it takes one generation or ten, unless the trends reverse, bankruptcy must come. Time can be gained by borrowing or printing money, but other countries will eventually stop accepting the nation’s debt—whether it is in the form of government bonds or in the form of fiat currency.

In the case of the United States, the country is not yet bankrupt, but bankruptcy will soon be in sight if current policies are not changed. Social Security will go into the red this year and Medicare will shortly follow with even larger deficits. Current estimates of U.S. debt are on the order of $13–14 trillion, an amount equal to the country’s entire gross domestic product. As monumental as that number is, it pales in comparison to the present value of the unfunded liabilities of Social Security and Medicare, which total $107 trillion.

Of all the changes wrought by the welfare state, a degraded, dependent culture will have the deadliest impact and will be the hardest to reverse. Yet the culture must be changed. This can occur only if government-created incentives that encourage people to live at the expense of others are replaced by market-created incentives encouraging the production of goods and services that people want. Creative marketplace competition to produce more and better products must supplant political competition for an ever-dwindling pool of tax dollars extracted from an ever-dwindling pool of productive workers.
 

Fook Seng

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Leongsam said:
Heavy reading but an excellent article that explains why helping the poor causes more harm than good.

Why are you posting reports of foreign wars that are fought over quite different things? Surely you have the intelligence to recognise the big difference between not enough and too much, unless you have the dishonest intent of trying to blur the difference?
 

Leongsam

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Re: Caring for the poor? This is what will happen if you pander to the needs of loser

Ugly fuck woman says benefits aren't sufficient so she has to become a whore! This is what "helping the poor" does to a society. "Help" becomes an entitlement and the benefits are never enough no matter what the quantum.

An all out campaign should be launched by the honorable PAP government to highlight the damage that "helping the poor" can do to a society. It destroys the work ethic, penalises those that work for a living and creates whole generations that have never done an honest days work in their lives. Instead, they live off the hard work of others while they sit back and enjoy life.

*********

Minister spells out $43,000 'salary' claim for solo mum


Beneficiary Tania Wysocki said the issue all along was about how much childcare she would be entitled to. Photo / Dean Purcell


Government minister Chester Borrows yesterday elaborated on his claim that sole parent Tania Wysocki received taxpayer support totalling the equivalent of a $43,000 salary, saying it was a gross figure.

His office provided figures to show it included the domestic purposes benefit, the accommodation supplement, family tax credit and childcare entitlements once she starts her course later this week.

He said that when added up it came to $699.03 a week, or around $36,300 net on a yearly salary. "For someone in employment to earn a new equivalent salary of $36,300 would require a gross salary of around $43,000, according to IRD's tax calculator," Mr Borrows' spokesman said.

"It is on this basis that the support provided to her at the time she begins study will be the equivalent of a $43,000-a-year salary."
The figures had not included 20 hours of early childhood education which cost the Government $220 a week.

Ms Wysocki, a Pukekohe mother of two preschoolers, went public with her case last week to highlight the fact that the veterinary nursing course she was taking at Unitech to try to get off the DPB permanently meant she would be $113 a week worse off. The course does not attract the same allowances as some other lower level courses. She said she was considering becoming an escort to help pay for her studies.

Mr Borrows, an Associate Minister for Social Development, told Parliament: "I think most New Zealanders would find that an equivalent salary of $43,000 is sufficient, or at least reasonable."Ms Wysocki said last night it was wrong to suggest she got a salary of $699 a week. "If I was getting $699 why on earth would I want to get off the DPB?"

She said her issue all along had been about the amount of childcare she was entitled to. Work and Income told her in writing she would be entitled to only nine hours a week for a fulltime course of study. But after the Herald made further inquiries, it revised its figure and said she would be entitled to 50 hours childcare while studying.

She said her children's fathers were paying child support to the Government.
By Audrey Young | Email Audrey
 

eatshitndie

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Re: Caring for the poor? This is what will happen if you pander to the needs of loser

it is the same as feeding wild birds and animals. every spring, ducks, geese, gulls, egrets and other birds of migration would fly north to return to breeding grounds and their summer vacation. signs at watering holes, ponds, lakes and parks would double to warn morons not to feed the birds. but morons, with their good but ignorant intentions, continue to feed the birds, thinking these poor, hungry, tired avian creatures need the help of humans with scrumbs of food. wrong.

we kill them by feeding them, sometimes causing them to go extinct. once they feed on food given freely by humans, they stop looking for food the way they know best naturally, i.e. hunt for it or scout for it by flying, swimming and looking. and without keeping up with survival skills honed over years of hunting their own food, they forget to hunt, get fat, stay around where moronic humans continue to feed, and die off, either as prey or from lack of exercise.

in fact, it's a misdemeanor in many states to feed feral or wild animals and birds. one (moronic but good intentioned) man in burbank, california was jailed for 9 months for throwing bird seeds all over to feed pigeons.
 
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Simbian

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Re: Caring for the poor? This is what will happen if you pander to the needs of loser

I am always amazed by how Leongsam is able to stoke the forum into a frenzy by his anti-social welfare, pro PAP postings. I note with amusement that he is not able to even use supporting evidence of welfare fraud in Singapore and has to do so with stories from overseas. Perhaps that's because he has already left Singapore and is living the good life in New Zealand, where once again I note which has a government which spends more tax dollars on social safety nets than our PAP incumbent.

I would like to point out that uplifting a person from poverty into say, the middle class, is a fairly difficult and resource expensive task - the reason why most welfare states failed is largely due to their inability to coax those trapped in the victim mindset to free themselves and work hard for their futures. There is after all, a good reason why they call it a poverty trap - it is not only a material one but a psychological one. Thus nowadays, most western governments will seek to assist poor families through assisting their children to get solid educations and good jobs - thus leaving the ghetto.

Let me also point out that in Singapore, the primary elephant in the room which no one seems to talk about is the challenge to prevent the middle class from evaporating and the next generation sinking into poverty. And as I see it, this has nothing to do with globalization and has plenty to do with the many whacked out policies which the PAP introduced in good times and are now backfiring with great aplomb as the tide goes out.

More good years ahead.
 

Ash007

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Re: Caring for the poor? This is what will happen if you pander to the needs of loser

This is what is going to happen. The "poor" will just have more kids to survive, and the smart ones will just die off. Every generation the human race gets dumber.

[video=youtube;BXRjmyJFzrU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXRjmyJFzrU[/video]
 

Leongsam

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Re: Caring for the poor? This is what will happen if you pander to the needs of loser

I am always amazed by how Leongsam is able to stoke the forum into a frenzy by his anti-social welfare, pro PAP postings. I note with amusement that he is not able to even use supporting evidence of welfare fraud in Singapore and has to do so with stories from overseas.
That's simply because welfare fraud is Singapore has yet to take root. Once it does, it's impossible to reverse.

My efforts are preemptive. There are many well meaning but ignorant campaigners out there who are working towards increasing government "help" for the so called less fortunate. This effort has to be nipped in the bud. I'm certainly not going to allow my forum to be used a launching pad for the creation of a welfare state.

The best way of helping the poor is to leave them to fend for themselves. It's the natural order of things and nature should be allowed to take its course.
 

Checker

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Re: Caring for the poor? This is what will happen if you pander to the needs of loser

The best way of helping the poor is to leave them to fend for themselves. It's the natural order of things and nature should be allowed to take its course.

At least the following billionaires would disagree, since they've pledged to donate the majority (more than 50%) of their wealth to charity...

http://givingpledge.org/
 

Leongsam

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Re: Caring for the poor? This is what will happen if you pander to the needs of loser

At least the following billionaires would disagree, since they've pledged to donate the majority (more than 50%) of their wealth to charity...

All that crap is merely a publicity stunt. It's nothing more than a PR exercise to make them look good.

However, I have to add that I'm all for donating money to honorable causes such as finding a cure for cancer, AIDS, MS etc. The brilliant and dedicated scientists and researches working on these projects need all the help they can get.

It's the handing over of money to losers that I thoroughly disapprove of.
 

dredd

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Re: Caring for the poor? This is what will happen if you pander to the needs of loser

At least the following billionaires would disagree, since they've pledged to donate the majority (more than 50%) of their wealth to charity...

http://givingpledge.org/

Billionaires are a different breed. Don't compare Sam to that class because he is not and never will be anyone great. His standard is only up to a sex-porn / forum starter. That's because his views on life is very juvenile. He is no deep thinker. Let the poor fend for themselves? Imagine the social consequences, the chaos the disorder, the breakdown of society. Maybe Sam has taken a leaf out of Robert Mugabe's book.
 

Checker

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Re: Caring for the poor? This is what will happen if you pander to the needs of loser

Am quite in favour of PR stunts if people put their name and money where their mouths are :smile:

Few people are in favour of giving too much money to the un-deserving to enjoy. That's a given. Even in welfare states, there is little tolerance of this, as shown by the articles you've cited.

But ultimately, most charities support some strategies to relieve poverty, disease, inequalities or injustices in society. This is very different from "handing money to losers". Eg infectious disease research, vaccination, health, education programmes etc. But indirectly still a form of 'caring for the poor' because the poor benefit from the fruits of these programmes.
 

dredd

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Re: Caring for the poor? This is what will happen if you pander to the needs of loser

Caring for the poor has to go hand in hand with education to ensure nobody expects a handout. In every society there will be the haves and the have-nots. Bridging the two to make the gap as close as possible is the objective of any responsible government.
 

rusty

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Re: Caring for the poor? This is what will happen if you pander to the needs of loser

Hi Rusty

Many thanks for your post. The more discerning forummers like yourself know where we advocates for more help from the PAP for the poor have all along been coming from.

We'd never asked S'pore to turn itself into a welfare state like the UK. We know fully about the situation in such countries and the perils/consequences of a system that dishes out welfare indiscriminatedly. What we are seeking is what you'd succinctly summarised in your post and never for the kind of welfarism practised in UK etc.

Leongsam and his band of clowns in desperate attempts to defend an uncaring govt's unwillingness to help the poor kept using this as an argument over and over again. That's why I never responded to whatever postings Leongsam had made here in this thread. Why bother with a mad dog that kept barking and barking the same noise. Mad dogs are meant to be ignored.

But when I read your post, I want to thank you for it as you showed a good understanding and appreciation of what the poor had to contend with a greedy and stingy govt. It's only the heartless and those without a social conscience that can't appreciate the real situation, or worse still, chose not to, for the sake of protecting their political masters.

Thanks for your appreciation of my post.
Sam is a paranoid who can't differentiate between help and welfare system.
As a matter of fact dole system was never a part of the Asian culture...name me any Asian country with welfare system like the West have.
Philanthropists set up free hospitals and temples provide free meals in Singapore for decades...do we see any abuse?
 

rusty

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Leongsam

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Re: Caring for the poor? This is what will happen if you pander to the needs of loser

From your link, those were PRC construction workers on short term work permits... so happened because of numerous constructions site nearby and what has that got to do with Singaporeans?
Given such unexpected situation, did the temple go bankrupt and stop helping the poor?

The construction workers are Asian and they are just as happy to freeload off the charity of others as their Western loser counterparts.

Your argument that welfare would not be abused in Asian countries holds no water.
 

rusty

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Re: Caring for the poor? This is what will happen if you pander to the needs of loser

The construction workers are Asian and they are just as happy to freeload off the charity of others as their Western loser counterparts.

Your argument that welfare would not be abused in Asian countries holds no water.

You have drifted from your original message that helping the poor will bankrupt Singapore in long run.
I retorted that helping the poor is unlike having a welfare system like the West have.
Yes, there is abuse by Fts in the free food provided by the temple...so did it go bankrupt?
Abuse has no boundry....chiefs of CNB & SCDF...didn't they abused their powers...so the government should stop appointing chief because of abuse?

Since when and where in my post I advocated welfare system for Singapore?
Go back and read my post.
 

neddy

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Re: Caring for the poor? This is what will happen if you pander to the needs of loser

This is what is going to happen. The "poor" will just have more kids to survive, and the smart ones will just die off. Every generation the human race gets dumber.

Good one.

Related: http://www.smh.com.au/world/science...t-not-what-they-used-to-be-20090805-ea31.html
9780733623912.jpg
 

Leongsam

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Re: Caring for the poor? This is what will happen if you pander to the needs of loser

You have drifted from your original message that helping the poor will bankrupt Singapore in long run.
I retorted that helping the poor is unlike having a welfare system like the West have.
Yes, there is abuse by Fts in the free food provided by the temple...so did it go bankrupt?
Abuse has no boundry....chiefs of CNB & SCDF...didn't they abused their powers...so the government should stop appointing chief because of abuse?

Since when and where in my post I advocated welfare system for Singapore?
Go back and read my post.

In order to help the poor, a welfare system has to be set up. You can't separate the two. It can't be done based on a subjective assessment. In an open and transparent system, the terms and conditions required before help is rendered have to be spelt out in black and white.

Once that is done, the abuse then starts because the rules for qualifying for help are available to everyone and for every genuine case, there will be 10 that have simply jumped on the bandwagon.

A typical example of how abuse is perpetuated is when it comes to means testing. For example, if someone who owns property is not entitled to a benefit, then what the fraudsters do is transfer the ownership of the property to a kid or a relative. It's impossible to stop. It's no different from the way bankrupts are seen still driving around in their Mercs and living in mansions despite being "penniless".
 
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