YPAPee Edgar Tieu wants Netizens to APOLOGIZE! U Scared?

[scroobal]

I think you are missing the point. There is no criminal act involved. Its more a moral issue similar to adultery which is not a criminal act. The AGC can't do anything. Only the auditor general can make a recommendation.

There is a conflict of interest and conflict of interest is not prohibited by any existing laws. Generally public institutions and those corporations that are publicly listed forbid by rule any situation where a conflict of interest can arise.

By raising this issue and keeping this issue alive, they have taken the moral high ground. You can see that the YPAP are struggling to regain that high ground by constantly stating without success that PAP manages the process and procedures are followed.

It will be easier if a conflict of interest also has corruption in it, which then makes it easier to prosecute under the Prevention of Corruption Act.

Typically for conflict of interest situation where it it expressely forbidden by a rule of that particular organsiation, only disciplinary action including termination will apply. Prof Maureen Tsakok's case where she was terminated by NUH is an example.

PA is an extremely grey zone despite its stat board status. It was founded to fight the communist in the community space. It is now a proxy for the PAP and more importantly for the Lee family. If you trace its history, the chair is always held by a member of the Lee family. The current CEO, Tan Boon Huat worked under Wong Kan Seng for many years. Wong's wife is first cousin of the PM. Boon Huat from Home affairs moved to become the Returning Officer at the last elections. After which he went on to PA. All with heavy political undertones.

PA and all its does is primarily to buy votes for the PAP. Its runs all the grassroots organsiations. The multicultural dances that is associated with PA is just a front. A useful front when chasing the reds during the 60s and 70s. Its budget then was used to pay salaries to ex-communist who crossed over but can't do a decent job to save themselves. They were asked to hunt their ex-colleagues. So instead of paying ex-communist, it now giving jobs to people like Sear and other leaches in society.

What began as a nobel cause is now very blurred.

Some of singapore's top scholars are sent to PA for stints to understand the politics. Many of them come out stunned. Its not for the faint hearted and its not for someone who hopes to get a good night sleep.

I can assure you that if PAP feels that it going to be toppled ( very unlikely), the first records that they will destroy is not that in ISD but those that are in PA.

Since you prefer to be anonymous, why don't you get Alex to write to PA, copy to MCYS and the AGC, to question the tender process? Or get one of the opposition members like Goh Meng Seng or otherwise, to further the motion?

Debating in YPAP is a total waste of time and a stupid way of forcing the truth out. Engaging this Sear or Khieu or Fong or any YPAP is like children playing marbles.

Tell you this much. The AGC will definitely reply and act because I know how the AGC works. The PA and MCYS will definitely need to open its books because the AGC operates in a very different stratosphere.

 

[JavaMocca]

I'm not talking about criminal activities committed nor concerned if there is a moral issue involved due to this perception that a conflict of interest has transpired.

The history of PA and its political purpose is an open secret. There is no, so to speak, covert operations that the public must not know of. To insist that the YPAP is struggling to retain its moral high ground in the light of this Sear episode is self-serving and flogging the wrong horse cos there is no moral obligations for PA to answer to.

What we should be looking for is the smoking gun. Without getting myself side-tracked to dissect your long narrative that, with due respect, will get us nowhere, I prefer to draw your energy towards the procurement process, where the smoking gun is.

This can be found in GeBiz (www.gebiz.gov.sg).

PA, MCYS and other government minstries, stat boards, organs of states procure their supplies and services through GeBiz. All Tenders and Quotations have terms and conditions and contractual clauses and the standard terms and conditions of these tenders and quotations are formulated and vetted by AGC.

If for Sear's jobs, the calling entity is PA, then most certainly it falls under GeBiz and the tender process and procedures is governed strictly by AGC.

Unless Sear's jobs are expensed off through petty cash, then Auditor General's Office will be responsible to do the audit. In any case, the AGC will be involved if there is a contract to provide the services or supplies.

There is your smoking gun, so quit harping on moral obligation for there is none. Conflict of interest is a serious breach of tender process and is criminal. The difficulty is proving it. If Sears is on both the supplier side as well as the decision-making side, then he would have committed a criminal offense. But if he was not directly involved in the evaluation committee or the approving authority for the award, then it is harder to prove that a conflict of interest exist, but not impossible. It boils down to how rigorously the whistle is blown. But take my word for it, if the AGC is informed formally, it will act, or the whole GeBiz legitimacy will be undermined, for the sake of a better word to describe this.

 

[TeeKee]

why do people want to call themselves Tieu?

it is very rude in Cantonese you know!

 

[cooleo]

Why bother with YOUNG PAPpies? Do they hold any seats in Parliament? NO!

U know in soccer, there are reserve footballers who warm the bench? They are NOT reserve players, they are the WATER BOYS!

 

[scroobal]

Why write to AGC then as you suggested ?

I'm not talking about criminal activities committed nor concerned if there is a moral issue involved due to this perception that a conflict of interest has transpired.

.

 

[scroobal]

Why bother to write to PA and copy to MCYS and AGC as you suggested. PA procedures allow such thing and AGC can't do anything. I think even Alex knows that and I suspect that most people know that. All you get in reply would be a nice letter telling you that procedures have been followed.

People make noise about GRC and other public policy issues not because they are illegal or out of procedures etc. It usually for one of these reasons - unfair, immoral, partial, favours one segment of society or predicated on an erroneous premise. The avenue left is to make noise and use public pressure to force them to change their ways. One uses debates, discussions and various media to carry the message.

I'm not talking about criminal activities committed nor concerned if there is a moral issue involved due to this perception that a conflict of interest has transpired.

.

 

[travelbug]

This can be found in GeBiz (www.gebiz.gov.sg). ......But take my word for it, if the AGC is informed formally, it will act, or the whole GeBiz legitimacy will be undermined, for the sake of a better word to describe this.

So will you inform Auditor General formally thru a written letter since you know the ins & outs of the system? Someone needs to teach Sear a lesson!

 

[Ramseth]

Conflicts of interests exist everywhere. Should doctors advise people to stop smoking and drinking, live a healthy lifestyle? If so, fewer people would fall ill and doctors would earn less. Should the police organise crime prevention campaigns? If there're less crimes, less police officers would be recruited, retained and promoted. An insurance company (or for that matter even the CPF Board) sells you annuity and would profit greatly if you die earlier, as soon as possible. Confict of interest, yes?

Conflicts of interests exist everywhere. There's nothing wrong just because it's there. It only becomes something wrong when it's abused for unfair gains. Even when there's no conflict of interest, any situation could be abused for unfair gains.

 

[JavaMocca]

Why bother to write to PA and copy to MCYS and AGC as you suggested. PA procedures allow such thing and AGC can't do anything. I think even Alex knows that and I suspect that most people know that. All you get in reply would be a nice letter telling you that procedures have been followed.

People make noise about GRC and other public policy issues not because they are illegal or out of procedures etc. It usually for one of these reasons - unfair, immoral, partial, favours one segment of society or predicated on an erroneous premise. The avenue left is to make noise and use public pressure to force them to change their ways. One uses debates, discussions and various media to carry the message.

So my dear Scroobal, are you telling me that for this Sear's episode, you actually think your suggestion of using debates, discussions, etc is achieving something? You actually think that there is a vast following of angry masses out there giving public pressure to force a change of ways? Did I hear a deafening silence from the opposition, as usual?

Or is it, with due respect, are you feeling a fire in your loins just because a young maverick Alex and the Counterstrike Squad is hammering at the door of YPAP website? Getting all wet over a "group of children" shooting at each other's marbles?

Anyway, if you are still insisting that this is a moral issue and not an issue of law, then I cannot convince you any further.

I had suggested to Kojakbt in another post in this thread what can possibly be done to test the extent of the laws protecting Sear. Since Alex (intepretesg) had fired the first volley at YPAP, and to the best of my knowledge, none of the CSS group members will lift their identity veils, he could write to PA, MCYS and AGC and request for an investigation into whether any fiduciary breach of duties had been committed by Sear or not.

Maybe there is no wrong-doing like you said, that PA procedures allow such thing and AGC cannot do anything. That's why I am also hesitant to say if any criminal offence had been committed or not. However, Alex could be uncovering a criminal breach of ethics and code of conduct by Sear and his RC contemporaries in the procurement process which the AGC must manage.

Maybe, for all we know, Sear could have run foul of Penal Code, Chapter 224, Clause 168 - Public servant unlawfully engaging in trade. This is too far-fetched but then again, who knows, right? This direct approach questioning Sear's direct line of higher authority is better than rolling in m&d with the minions YPAP, don't you agree?

In any case, didn't Sears threaten defamation and arrogantly challenges anyone to report him to the authorities in his blog? So, isn't this similar to Durai challenging the SPH reporter? Well, not entirely similar, but it will do for now as case reference until a better one comes up.

 

[scroobal]

The question is simple - what did you expect AGC, MYCS and PA to do? My answer is that its waste of time as it has been an accepted procedure for yonks. The incumbent has politicised PA and its in the business of buying votes for the incumbent.

The next bastion of applying pressure is taking the moral high ground. Whether its exist or not is moot and quiet irrelevant.

Unless you can suggest some other more effective ploy or tactic , the chaps holding the moral high ground, raving and ranting are doing the best that they can do.

Clearly this thread and similar threads in this forum and other forums are quite damaging to the PAP. Its the best that we can do given the circumstances. If we want change, sometimes the raving and ranting does help.

So my dear Scroobal, are you telling me that for this Sear's episode, you actually think your suggestion of using debates, discussions, etc is achieving something? You actually think that there is a vast following of angry masses out there giving public pressure to force a change of ways? Did I hear a deafening silence from the opposition, as usual?

Or is it, with due respect, are you feeling a fire in your loins just because a young maverick Alex and the Counterstrike Squad is hammering at the door of YPAP website? Getting all wet over a "group of children" shooting at each other's marbles?

Anyway, if you are still insisting that this is a moral issue and not an issue of law, then I cannot convince you any further.

I had suggested to Kojakbt in another post in this thread what can possibly be done to test the extent of the laws protecting Sear. Since Alex (intepretesg) had fired the first volley at YPAP, and to the best of my knowledge, none of the CSS group members will lift their identity veils, he could write to PA, MCYS and AGC and request for an investigation into whether any fiduciary breach of duties had been committed by Sear or not.

Maybe there is no wrong-doing like you said, that PA procedures allow such thing and AGC cannot do anything. That's why I am also hesitant to say if any criminal offence had been committed or not. However, Alex could be uncovering a criminal breach of ethics and code of conduct by Sear and his RC contemporaries in the procurement process which the AGC must manage.

Maybe, for all we know, Sear could have run foul of Penal Code, Chapter 224, Clause 168 - Public servant unlawfully engaging in trade. This is too far-fetched but then again, who knows, right? This direct approach questioning Sear's direct line of higher authority is better than rolling in m&d with the minions YPAP, don't you agree?

In any case, didn't Sears threaten defamation and arrogantly challenges anyone to report him to the authorities in his blog? So, isn't this similar to Durai challenging the SPH reporter? Well, not entirely similar, but it will do for now as case reference until a better one comes up.

 

[scroobal]

I thought this deserved a separate post.

Sear is no longer a public servant when he got the gig as I understand it. Sear has also backed down from his defamation threat as I suspect that the PAP elders stepped in. He now wants people to lodge a police report or a CPIB report if they they think he did something wrong.

"rolling in m&d with the minions YPAP," maybe the only avenue left and I think we (including you) are contributing tremendously in raising this case profile and giving it the air that it needs and the air that it deserves. Both you and I are doing as much damage to the PAP generally insurmountable facade of squeaky clean as the chaps like KojakBt. Alex however deserves a higher platform of recognition.

Let keep this going as far possible so that the fucking PAP and PA does not think that can carry this mode of operation. I do hope however that PSC steps in and reminds those chaps in Auditor General that their entire staff strenght comes under PSC and not confined to Superscale Grade D and above for all other services.

Maybe, for all we know, Sear could have run foul of Penal Code, Chapter 224, Clause 168 - Public servant unlawfully engaging in trade. This is too far-fetched but then again, who knows, right? This direct approach questioning Sear's direct line of higher authority is better than rolling in m&d with the minions YPAP, don't you agree?

In any case, didn't Sears threaten defamation and arrogantly challenges anyone to report him to the authorities in his blog? So, isn't this similar to Durai challenging the SPH reporter? Well, not entirely similar, but it will do for now as case reference until a better one comes up.

 

[woofy]

there are much similarities between the YPAP, the Hitler's youth and the Red Guards, and their fate were all the same

 

[scroobal]

They call it blind loyalty.

there are much similarities between the YPAP, the Hitler's youth and the Red Guards, and their fate were all the same

 

[JavaMocca]

They call it blind loyalty.

Let's make it clear here. There is no such a thing as blind loyalty.
No one points a gun to anyone of these cults, gangs, cells, YPAP or Red Guard or KKK or whatever hypocritical CHC or NCC groups.

They join willingly because the organization serves their own selfish purposes well.

I really disagree on the concept of brainwashing. Why am I not brainwashed even though I have all the opportunity to join such an organization? This is because I have a higher conscience. Not all men are born equal. Some are born void of a higher conscience. What they see are selfish benefits, benefits, benefits when they join an organization, cult, gang, group.

The appropriate phrase to use is selfish loyalty, not blind loyalty.
Take away their benefits, let's see if they are still blind or not. Common, culpable as charged.

 

[JavaMocca]

I thought this deserved a separate post.

Sear is no longer a public servant when he got the gig as I understand it. Sear has also backed down from his defamation threat as I suspect that the PAP elders stepped in. He now wants people to lodge a police report or a CPIB report if they they think he did something wrong.

"rolling in m&d with the minions YPAP," maybe the only avenue left and I think we (including you) are contributing tremendously in raising this case profile and giving it the air that it needs and the air that it deserves. Both you and I are doing as much damage to the PAP generally insurmountable facade of squeaky clean as the chaps like KojakBt. Alex however deserves a higher platform of recognition.

Let keep this going as far possible so that the fucking PAP and PA does not think that can carry this mode of operation. I do hope however that PSC steps in and reminds those chaps in Auditor General that their entire staff strenght comes under PSC and not confined to Superscale Grade D and above for all other services.

That's why the laws it is slippery, as the RC is a voluntary setup. It's like affiliates or agency agents. An RC member is not a public servant but reports to a public organization, a stat board PA, whose chairman is the PM. If it is a public servant, then I would immediately look into whether Penal Code, Chapter 224, Clause 168 - Public servant unlawfully engaging in trade was breached or not or if prior approval had been sought.

On the other hand, the Government procurement process is very clear on the ethics involved. It frowns on cronyism but I am not sure what precise laws govern this aspect. Goh Chok Tong had suggested some laws of disclosure for public servants to prevent cronyism and conflicts of interest some years ago. Anyhow, if it is unwritten, then common laws should prevail. Like I said, it just depends on how hard the whistleblower blows.

Rolling in m&d with the minions will not champion any cause. There must be a formal complaint and it should be addressed to the right authorities.
How they act and reply will set the tone. The right party to complain are the other suppliers who lost the bids, but then the general public can also file a complaint for an investigation to take place. if it is of public interest, then the public can champion it, but frankly, the general public is apathetic to such wheeling and dealing, because the general public is ignorant and ill-equiped, besides the fact that there is the daily grind to take care of.

As I had also said, there is a deafenig silence from the opposition. In fact, there is a deafening silence from the oppostion on almost everything. You can't say you have the heart and soul to represent and fight for the people when you are as ineffective as my neighbour's barking dog, but at least my neighbour's dog does bark.

 

[scroobal]

Agree with what you wrote below. Selfish seems more appropriate.

Let's make it clear here. There is no such a thing as blind loyalty.
No one points a gun to anyone of these cults, gangs, cells, YPAP or Red Guard or KKK or whatever hypocritical CHC or NCC groups.

They join willingly because the organization serves their own selfish purposes well.

I really disagree on the concept of brainwashing. Why am I not brainwashed even though I have all the opportunity to join such an organization? This is because I have a higher conscience. Not all men are born equal. Some are born void of a higher conscience. What they see are selfish benefits, benefits, benefits when they join an organization, cult, gang, group.

The appropriate phrase to use is selfish loyalty, not blind loyalty.
Take away their benefits, let's see if they are still blind or not. Common, culpable as charged.

 

[scroobal]

This is the part that I don't get. The opposition needs to grab opportunities like these. There is no need to prove anything or provide conclusive evidence.

All they have to do is that there is disquiet in cybespace and suggest an inquiry.

Look at Seelan and KJ, chaps from 2 different parties and fighting over the terms "rabble-rousing and rambunctious"

As I had also said, there is a deafenig silence from the opposition. In fact, there is a deafening silence from the oppostion on almost everything. You can't say you have the heart and soul to represent and fight for the people when you are as ineffective as my neighbour's barking dog, but at least my neighbour's dog does bark.