WP's Managing Agent's issue

[Goh Meng Seng]

Dear Scroobal,

The fact is, the present AHTC is still run by the ex-GM of HGTC and her husband plus the other staffs from HGTC. period.
Paid up capital aside, both companies are skeleton empty shell companies without any backbone staffs.
Wee Cho Yaw didn't subcontract the management of his bank to a company he owned and still sits as Chairman of the bank
AIM, still subcontract out maintenance to another company, just like FMSS subcontracting cleaning services out.

For the interests of Singapore, BOTH PAP and WP will have to be taken to task for the glaring and blatant potential conflict of interests in their dealings.

I hope I have answered you.

Goh Meng Seng

1. One isa GRC and the other is an SMC - 2 different set of dynamics. You cannot expect HG staff to run a GRC
2. It is not a $2 company unlike AIM. Its 250,000 more of hard cash.
3. Wee Cho Yaw has the largest stake in UOB and he also works in it and therefore he draws a salary as well as receives dividends. These are 2 different roles.
4. They are required by contract to carry out their services. Unlike AIM, which does nothing except sign letter with no names.

If you are keen to help Singapore and Singaporeans, you need to identify which important issue you need to address. IN this case PAP or WP? Which to you is a bigger issue.

 

[scroobal]

Do I think that WP could have done better in this space? Yes. I am sure they will learn from it and realise that these designs by the PAP are intentional and to try and trip the opposition. If they don't I am sure we would have further debates down the road. It is a difficult choice - bringing in someone who you can trust and going out and trying your luck.

You have to decide which is the bigger issue - AIM or WP.

I am dead sure if you collared Tampines, Sebastian and the other business towkays would have done similar. And lets not pretend that would not be case.

Dear Scroobal,

The fact is, the present AHTC is still run by the ex-GM of HGTC and her husband plus the other staffs from HGTC. period.
Paid up capital aside, both companies are skeleton empty shell companies without any backbone staffs.
Wee Cho Yaw didn't subcontract the management of his bank to a company he owned and still sits as Chairman of the bank
AIM, still subcontract out maintenance to another company, just like FMSS subcontracting cleaning services out.

For the interests of Singapore, BOTH PAP and WP will have to be taken to task for the glaring and blatant potential conflict of interests in their dealings.

I hope I have answered you.

Goh Meng Seng

 

[tanwahp]

If you do not have the expertise to run the TC, by all means, go for outsourcing and tender...

Outsourcing to a company is not only for expertise. If it was that simple, outsourcing concept will not be an entire chapter or two chapters in a university textbook on a management module.

One of the considerations whether to outsource is size and scale. Which company in the world cannot find in-house expertise? If so, how did the concept of outsourcing arise? A smaller company may not outsource their IT or cleaning compared to a big company. The difference between HGTC and AHTC in size is obvious.

I can oblige if you want me to spell out more benefits of outsourcing. How it saves costs, how it can achieve economies of scale or how outsourced companies can be changed when the time comes.

But in this case, first, there wasn't any tender procedure for the first year, secondly, HGTC has already had the expertise to run the TC, third, in spite of that, they gave contract to their own GM and husband's newly form company to run the TC, last but not least, that new company didn't even have backbone staffs to start with but made use of HGTC core staff... so the fundamental question is, why should such contract be awarded in the first place?

For this part on absence of tender and why newly form a MA company, others have explained that it was due to political constraints. You probably won't agree with those views, but that is not my topic of discussion with you. It's a bit disconnected from the part that I was discussing about benefits of outsourcing. I don't see how WP got FMSS in shows outsourcing is bad.

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

I have learned throughout the years, not to speculate on things that have not happened but focus on issues that have happened.

Both PAP and WP are basically the same, samma samma in this AIM - FMSS saga. AIM is politically motivated while FMSS is something else. I have no problem that people want their trusted friends and people to run the show but that doesn't mean that they can just do anything they want. Same thing applied to AIM and FMSS. There is absolutely no necessity for AIM and FMSS to exist unless you are saying FMSS or AIM provides additional expertise. FMSS case is made worse when the key directors are still on the payroll of the TC.

If you are talking about which one is worse in terms of public interests, my view is FMSS. If you are talking about political perspective, then it is AIM as it involves political motives.

Goh Meng Seng





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Do I think that WP could have done better in this space? Yes. I am sure they will learn from it and realise that these designs by the PAP are intentional and to try and trip the opposition. If they don't I am sure we would have further debates down the road. It is a difficult choice - bringing in someone who you can trust and going out and trying your luck.

You have to decide which is the bigger issue - AIM or WP.

I am dead sure if you collared Tampines, Sebastian and the other business towkays would have done similar. And lets not pretend that would not be case.

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

I have already answered you. If the original GM is still providing the same service with the team of HGTC staffs, then why outsource to FMSS... worse still, to have the same directors on the payroll of TC? Apparently it means that there is really no value add from such arrangement but higher costing.

Goh Meng Seng

Outsourcing to a company is not only for expertise. If it was that simple, outsourcing concept will not be an entire chapter or two chapters in a university textbook on a management module.

One of the considerations whether to outsource is size and scale. Which company in the world cannot find in-house expertise? If so, how did the concept of outsourcing arise? A smaller company may not outsource their IT or cleaning compared to a big company. The difference between HGTC and AHTC in size is obvious.

I can oblige if you want me to spell out more benefits of outsourcing. How it saves costs, how it can achieve economies of scale or how outsourced companies can be changed when the time comes.



For this part on absence of tender and why newly form a MA company, others have explained that it was due to political constraints. You probably won't agree with those views, but that is not my topic of discussion with you. It's a bit disconnected from the part that I was discussing about benefits of outsourcing. I don't see how WP got FMSS in shows outsourcing is bad.

 

[scroobal]

Yes. Interestingly we actually had a proper debates with serious details disclosed during the Nassimgate saga in parliament. Old man had to fight to retain whatever image he had of himself and his family.

Aimgate - zilch. Instead they drag the MA contract. If it is so bad, MND has the power to intervene. Why don't MND to do anything.

Blowing up the FMSS issue now means that AIM gate hogwash in state owned media did not work as intended. PAP focus group checks must have told them that most people dont buy the explanation given by khaw. Hence PAP has to resort to plan B, which is to divert attention to WP town council.

 

[tanwahp]

I have already answered you. If the original GM is still providing the same service with the team of HGTC staffs, then why outsource to FMSS...

I believe I have also answered too, that there are benefits to outsourcing even if the benefits are not immediate.

Outsourcing has nothing to do with who is being hired. When a company outsources a function, it allows the new service providing company of that function to hire the outgoing employees of the department serving that function. Is that very new or strange in the market?

Apparently it means that there is really no value add

You have concluded that there is no value add because it is about WP, yet when WP is really doing something that is common around the world, you find yourself opposing the concept of outsourcing.

from such arrangement but higher costing.

I don't think anyone can conclude that there is higher costing by the TC by just the GM and her husband drawing double salaries. We don't know how much these salaries are, the portion of these salaries within the overall expenditure or whether there are savings in other areas bringing down the overall expenditure.

If you say that the high salaries are wrong on principle, that is true. But again no one knows the amounts, whether they are drawing way below-market rates.

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

Don't need to speculate. Open the books and see how much were spent on various contracts.

Goh Meng Seng

I believe I have also answered too, that there are benefits to outsourcing even if the benefits are not immediate.

Outsourcing has nothing to do with who is being hired. When a company outsources a function, it allows the new service providing company of that function to hire the outgoing employees of the department serving that function. Is that very new or strange in the market?



You have concluded that there is no value add because it is about WP, yet when WP is really doing something that is common around the world, you find yourself opposing the concept of outsourcing.



I don't think anyone can conclude that there is higher costing by the TC by just the GM and her husband drawing double salaries. We don't know how much these salaries are, the portion of these salaries within the overall expenditure or whether there are savings in other areas bringing down the overall expenditure.

If you say that the high salaries are wrong on principle, that is true. But again no one knows the amounts, whether they are drawing way below-market rates.

 

[lockeliberal]

Dear Scroo,

The basic premise behind GMS thoughts are that a) estate management is a cinch, much like condo management b) easily subsituted with a well paid poly grad. But thats "high faultin " ideals lets talk reality.

All the estate management companies sub out most of their work, whether CPG or EMS. Some keep some work in house but literally the closest comparison is the construction and renovation industry. Ask around, ask your friendly contractor about the nature of his business. In fact I am willing to bet a dinner on being wrong at a restaurant of anyone's choosing.

So why paid a contractor who subs out his nearly all his work and earns a 20 to 30% margin on top of that ? I mean just save 30% and do it yourself. QED right ?

My parent in a very Saw Piak Hua desire to cut costs did just that. It did end up being about 25% cheaper but at the expense of a longer time, much angst in coordination and much work and effort to ensure that WORK contracted was done to spec. i,e u paid for Italian marble but the dammm flooring contractor did not fob u off with a lower grade of China Marble. Or for that matter resolving a dispute over who was to blame for the stains on the marble, was it because of the paint and wall and carpentry guy or was it the fault of the marble guy ?

I have described to you a microcosm of what I have seen go wrong in renovation and construction projects over years but whilst these have been certainly under half a million, just scale it up to see what can go wrong.

The GM or the MAs role is exactly like that of the contractor, to know who can be trusted, who cannot, who provides more for less, or who under provides and over promises. Who can be counted on to go the extra mile, who cannot etc etc. This is institutional knowledge built up over time, but this is institutional knowledge accumulated at the very top. What would the HGTCC staff know of such details ? Who would know such knowledge. For example a good contractor told me pay this guy 15% more and you get it done faster but u end up collecting rent and or starting business earlier as he deploys more manpower.

Miss How and Husband are not the slaves of the WP. If after ten years they decide to go "private" what is to stop them ? Yes they might be monopolistic when it comes to providing town council management services to the opposition but when the PAP link companies refuses to tender and the town still has to be managed what should be done ?

The only solution then is the GMS solution whereby in his view everything is QED.



Locke

Yes. Interestingly we actually had a proper debates with serious details disclosed during the Nassimgate saga in parliament. Old man had to fight to retain whatever image he had of himself and his family.

Aimgate - zilch. Instead they drag the MA contract. If it is so bad, MND has the power to intervene. Why don't MND to do anything.

 

[scroobal]

What Khaw and Teo are trying to imply or insinuate is that the couple are double dipping for the same amount of work or overpaid. They know that most layman can't figure it out. GMS is doing the same thing. The damage is done without disclosing any figures.

This is a battle no opposition party can beat the PAP. If all TC GMs have to disclose their salaries and any other income from TC related work, the PAP will deliberately underpay these guys but make them union officials or provide them GLC or party work so that they are compensated handsomely. The opposition don't have the same setup or the means and you cannot also underpay as the chap will walk.

The PAP is the biggest culprit here with NTUC bankrolling many of these political sycophants.

Managing TCs should be rejected outright. It may help politically in getting closer to the residents but it is fraught with danger. s

I don't think anyone can conclude that there is higher costing by the TC by just the GM and her husband drawing double salaries. We don't know how much these salaries are, the portion of these salaries within the overall expenditure or whether there are savings in other areas bringing down the overall expenditure.

If you say that the high salaries are wrong on principle, that is true. But again no one knows the amounts, whether they are drawing way below-market rates.

 

[scroobal]

GMS is being mischievous. He is doing what Khaw and Teo are doing . He knows how these things work in the commercial world. His argument that they ran Hougang so Aljunied is no different is ridiculous.

The renovation contractor example is good and hopefully people can grasp it.

Dear Scroo,

The basic premise behind GMS thoughts are that a) estate management is a cinch, much like condo management b) easily subsituted with a well paid poly grad. But thats "high faultin " ideals lets talk reality.

All the estate management companies sub out most of their work, whether CPG or EMS. Some keep some work in house but literally the closest comparison is the construction and renovation industry. Ask around, ask your friendly contractor about the nature of his business. In fact I am willing to bet a dinner on being wrong at a restaurant of anyone's choosing.

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

Locke,

Apparently you didn't know you have contradicted yourself quite blatantly in your write up here.

You get no difference in performance if the MA is run by the very person who is already your GM.

Goh Meng Seng

Dear Scroo,

The basic premise behind GMS thoughts are that a) estate management is a cinch, much like condo management b) easily subsituted with a well paid poly grad. But thats "high faultin " ideals lets talk reality.

All the estate management companies sub out most of their work, whether CPG or EMS. Some keep some work in house but literally the closest comparison is the construction and renovation industry. Ask around, ask your friendly contractor about the nature of his business. In fact I am willing to bet a dinner on being wrong at a restaurant of anyone's choosing.

So why paid a contractor who subs out his nearly all his work and earns a 20 to 30% margin on top of that ? I mean just save 30% and do it yourself. QED right ?

My parent in a very Saw Piak Hua desire to cut costs did just that. It did end up being about 25% cheaper but at the expense of a longer time, much angst in coordination and much work and effort to ensure that WORK contracted was done to spec. i,e u paid for Italian marble but the dammm flooring contractor did not fob u off with a lower grade of China Marble. Or for that matter resolving a dispute over who was to blame for the stains on the marble, was it because of the paint and wall and carpentry guy or was it the fault of the marble guy ?

I have described to you a microcosm of what I have seen go wrong in renovation and construction projects over years but whilst these have been certainly under half a million, just scale it up to see what can go wrong.

The GM or the MAs role is exactly like that of the contractor, to know who can be trusted, who cannot, who provides more for less, or who under provides and over promises. Who can be counted on to go the extra mile, who cannot etc etc. This is institutional knowledge built up over time, but this is institutional knowledge accumulated at the very top. What would the HGTCC staff know of such details ? Who would know such knowledge. For example a good contractor told me pay this guy 15% more and you get it done faster but u end up collecting rent and or starting business earlier as he deploys more manpower.

Miss How and Husband are not the slaves of the WP. If after ten years they decide to go "private" what is to stop them ? Yes they might be monopolistic when it comes to providing town council management services to the opposition but when the PAP link companies refuses to tender and the town still has to be managed what should be done ?

The only solution then is the GMS solution whereby in his view everything is QED.



Locke

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

I am not being mischievous. I just ask a simple question, what a 4 day old company without any backbone staffs can do better than a HGTC with a full management team? Especially when both are run by the same persons?

Goh Meng Seng

GMS is being mischievous. He is doing what Khaw and Teo are doing . He knows how these things work in the commercial world. His argument that they ran Hougang so Aljunied is no different is ridiculous.

The renovation contractor example is good and hopefully people can grasp it.

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

Dear Scroobal,

There is no need to disclose any figures. As long as the GM and hubby are still employed by TC while their company takes the MA contract, the conflict of interests and double rewards are just too much glaring already. Sylvia has avoided answering that important question... is GM and hubby under TC payroll as well?

Goh Meng Seng

What Khaw and Teo are trying to imply or insinuate is that the couple are double dipping for the same amount of work or overpaid. They know that most layman can't figure it out. GMS is doing the same thing. The damage is done without disclosing any figures.

This is a battle no opposition party can beat the PAP. If all TC GMs have to disclose their salaries and any other income from TC related work, the PAP will deliberately underpay these guys but make them union officials or provide them GLC or party work so that they are compensated handsomely. The opposition don't have the same setup or the means and you cannot also underpay as the chap will walk.

The PAP is the biggest culprit here with NTUC bankrolling many of these political sycophants.

Managing TCs should be rejected outright. It may help politically in getting closer to the residents but it is fraught with danger. s

 

[lockeliberal]

Dear Scroobal,

More like a dog with an imanginery bone he can't let go. As I explained somewhere in a long post, How any one particular deal is structured is subject to variation. The previous GM of Aljunied became acting GM of Aljunied because he was part of the previous CPG crew. Was he paid as a member of Aljunied TC directly, or through CPG directly ?Sigh.




Locke

GMS is being mischievous. He is doing what Khaw and Teo are doing . He knows how these things work in the commercial world. His argument that they ran Hougang so Aljunied is no different is ridiculous.

The renovation contractor example is good and hopefully people can grasp it.

 

[aurvandil]

PAP made a serious political mistake with the FMSS issue.

The intent appears to have been to raise FMSS to show that what happened for AIM is before board.

The problem is that trust in the PAP is at an all time low. Trust in WP on the other hand is at an all time high.

Singaporeans are therefore willing to give WP the benefit of the doubt but unwilling to do the same for the PAP. PAP's AIM is therefore seen as cryonism while WP's FMSS AIM is perceived as yet another attempt by the PAP to "fix" WP like they way they did with JBJ and CSJ.

Like the previous 6.9 million White Paper, the fact that the PAP senior leadership pursued this course of action suggests that they are still in denial that they have lost the goodwill and trust of Singaporeans.

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

HGTC puts out contracts for contracts and such... so does any MA.

That is why the GM of HGTC can be MA of AHTC. QED and of course, profitable as well.

Goh Meng Seng

Dear Scroobal,

More like a dog with an imanginery bone he can't let go. As I explained somewhere in a long post, How any one particular deal is structured is subject to variation. The previous GM of Aljunied became acting GM of Aljunied because he was part of the previous CPG crew. Was he paid as a member of Aljunied TC directly, or through CPG directly ?Sigh.




Locke

 

[DEDEER]

Dear Scroobal,

Sylvia has avoided answering that important question... is GM and hubby under TC payroll as well?

Goh Meng Seng

Goh Meng Seng,

No axe to grind here. Just showing you simple logic : if you are so good in political analysing as you claim you would be able to at least save TKL from his humiliation.

Logic right

Goh Meng Seng,

Why you avoid this question 5% leh. How you account for this boo boo

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

As a matter of relativity since people don't have any high expectation of PAP, whatever damage on PAP is actually minimized.

On the other hand, when people have high expectation but in the end, FMSS spills the beans of conflict of interests would make the disappointment expounded in many times.

Thus, on the contrary, I think the damage on WP is much more as the saying goes, the higher the expectation, the deeper the disappointment.

Goh Meng Seng

PAP made a serious political mistake with the FMSS issue.

The intent appears to have been to raise FMSS to show that what happened for AIM is before board.

The problem is that trust in the PAP is at an all time low. Trust in WP on the other hand is at an all time high.

Singaporeans are therefore willing to give WP the benefit of the doubt but unwilling to do the same for the PAP.

Hence while WP is being damaged by FMSS, the damage PAP is suffering is probably 2 to 3 times greater.

Like the previous 6.9 million White Paper, the fact that the PAP senior leadership pursued this course of action suggests that they are still in denial that they have lost the goodwill and trust of many Singaporeans.

 

[aurvandil]

Somewhat surprised by this. Shouldn't the PAP have higher standing and expectations than WP? They are after all supposed to be the best of the best that Singapore has to offer which is why we have to pay them so much. How did we end up with WP now being ahead of the PAP?

As a matter of relativity since people don't have any high expectation of PAP, whatever damage on PAP is actually minimized.

On the other hand, when people have high expectation but in the end, FMSS spills the beans of conflict of interests would make the disappointment expounded in many times.

Thus, on the contrary, I think the damage on WP is much more as the saying goes, the higher the expectation, the deeper the disappointment.

Goh Meng Seng