WP mocks other party: GMS may be right after all

[NoNewsGood]

Tampines GRC was by far the easier target than Aljunied GRC for the opposition to win. Bear in mind MBT unpopularity versus GY.

Yet NSP lost Tampines GRC not even with a narrow margin. NSP had their chance and they lost.

 

[TracyTan866]

http://temasektimes.wordpress.com/2012/05/06/sylvia-lim-wp-will-contest-in-tampines-grc-in-the-next-general-election/

Can you blame SL for mocking when she has oppositions like GMS taunting the WP?

 

[myfoot123]

I am an economic-trained person who dislike Monopolies very much because I understand the destruction they could bring to Nation and the people.

I am in opposition politic because I dislike PAP monopolizing power. But at the same time, I am turned off by WP which has put up obvious attempts to monopolize the opposition platform. Goh Meng Seng

The word monopolising is a little strong to use on WP. WP, like other opposition parites, stood on same platform to contest without any resources to back up. WP started small, like SPP (NSP) in the past. RP is still an infant without much exposures, SDP is the only party with capable people but its leader started out pretty rough and entranged itself with lawsuits. If WP has grew by leaps and bound, it is based on own effort and equal footings to contest among other opposition parties. As much as I wanted to see more parties in parliament, it is the residents who decide should enter parliament. Frankly, I was dissappointed that non of any member in NSP, SDP and SPP were voted into parliament. Presumably if WP were to contest all wards (without opposition) do you think there will be more WP members than the currrent group of 6? If so, how can we blame it squarely on WP when they actually fought very hard in the last GE. It is not like they used tax resources, resort to threat or mobilised PA in their favour in a monopolistic way. Thus, it unfair to criticise them for winning the residents' hearts - democratically.

 

[zeddy]

Tampines GRC was by far the easier target than Aljunied GRC for the opposition to win. Bear in mind MBT unpopularity versus GY.

Yet NSP lost Tampines GRC not even with a narrow margin. NSP had their chance and they lost.

Agree..I'm a Tampines resident for 18 years.. Tampines residents were all bloody pissed off with shorty Mah.. His unpopularity was one of the main reasons why NSP managed to garner a creditable 42.7 % votes.. In my honest view, NSP should have done better in walking the ground and making their presence felt in Tampines, but they failed to do that.. That chance to kick out Mabok Tan was lost last May.. Time for a better Oppo party to step into Tampines.. Hardcore Oppo supporters in Tampines will more than welcome the entry of the Workers Party there.

 

[scroobal]

If i remember correctly, statistics as well. So you should know that this is a numbers games. The target is PAP and not WP not matter how badly you feel about the latter. You do not cut off your nose to spite your face. NSP does not have the track record to cross the hurdle. Under you there was a chance and now its in the hands of the same people and I am sure Hazel is under no illusions who is running the joint.

If you want to help Singaporeans and the opposition and being a numbers guy, it makes so much sense to back WP.

We honestly have no time to hear the constant whingeing about MK epsiode.

If you cannot contribute meaningfully you either sit by the sidelines and let time heal the MK rift. Or else please fuck off.

Firstly there is little purchase to put forward an argument that WP is getting too big, becoming a monopoly. That is absolutely ridiculous. Either you can,t do simple maths or your inner hatred is beyond control. You know Sylvia better than most. Does she strike you as a monster. For heavens sake, this is a girl that fought her way to where she is. She took a chance when the law did not allow a stat board employee to contest the elections. They had to amend the law. Not many people are prepared to fight in that manner that she did. She has held up to scrutiny, did very well as NCMP, gave Hen a black eye and has been at the bridge with the helmsman in what has been an epic journey.

You dropped out and to be gracious, I would call it as matter of principle. Have the decency to take your medicine and move on.

Take credit for running an oustanding campaign during the GE. You brought in the Malays, you did whatever humanely possible, with Nicole, you gave GCT and the PAP a fright of their lives. You were the reason for MBT to lose his job.

I have been absolutely understanding despite having many detractors Over the years but this beyond reproach. It does not have be a lost cause but it will be if you keep this up.

I am an economic-trained person who dislike Monopolies very much because I understand the destruction they could bring to Nation and the people.


Goh Meng Seng

 

[LeMans2011]

If i remember correctly, statistics as well. So you should know that this is a numbers games. The target is PAP and not WP not matter how badly you feel about the latter. You do not cut off your nose to spite your face. NSP does not have the track record to cross the hurdle. Under you there was a chance and now its in the hands of the same people and I am sure Hazel is under no illusions who is running the joint.

If you want to help Singaporeans and the opposition and being a numbers guy, it makes so much sense to back WP.

We honestly have no time to hear the constant whingeing about MK epsiode.

If you cannot contribute meaningfully you either sit by the sidelines and let time heal the MK rift. Or else please fuck off.

Firstly there is little purchase to put forward an argument that WP is getting too big, becoming a monopoly. That is absolutely ridiculous. Either you can,t do simple maths or your inner hatred is beyond control. You know Sylvia better than most. Does she strike you as a monster. For heavens sake, this is a girl that fought her way to where she is. She took a chance when the law did not allow a stat board employee to contest the elections. They had to amend the law. Not many people are prepared to fight in that manner that she did. She has held up to scrutiny, did very well as NCMP, gave Hen a black eye and has been at the bridge with the helmsman in what has been an epic journey.

You dropped out and to be gracious, I would call it as matter of principle. Have the decency to take your medicine and move on.

Take credit for running an oustanding campaign during the GE. You brought in the Malays, you did whatever humanely possible, with Nicole, you gave GCT and the PAP a fright of their lives. You were the reason for MBT to lose his job.

I have been absolutely understanding despite having many detractors Over the years but this beyond reproach. It does not have be a lost cause but it will be if you keep this up.

Well said!!!

 

[LeMans2011]

How can WP party be a "monopoly" when it has won only 6 seats against PAP's 81?
In every mature democracy there is a ruling party, a strong opposition and a couple of calafaires. The best example is obviously the Democrats vs Republican. WP is miles away from that but it looks set to become THE opposition party to evolve into a formidable challenger to PAP. If you want to keep PAP in check, if you imagine PAP as the Republican then it is every Singaporean's hope WP or whoever formidable enough could become the Democrat... whereas people like GMS would probably form the likes of Green Party.

PLease for goodness sake... those people who complain about WP "monopolising".. do you even understand how a democratic system work?? Any party that can garner enough support is free to send their candidates in. It is not about sharing a slice of cake because we don't own it!!

 

[Kinana]

As a general rule of thumb, you don't bad-mouth the organisations you left. At least not in such a high-profile manner like yours. You think logic and reasons legitimise your attacks on NSP and WP? Even if you're right, you lose politically.

It's dignity is you're seriously short of.

First of all, if you take things so personal, you can't be a good politician or political thinker or a good leader either.
I don't see Goh attacking NSP at all.
He is simply putting forward critical thinking in a non partisan manner as an honest broker. I fully appreciate that.

Singapore does need more people like Goh who sees things in clarity and not be afraid to be open about it. In the long run, Goh can only gain if he has a track record of objectivity to stand on if indeed he still wants to be politically active.

 

[Kinana]

If i remember correctly, statistics as well. So you should know that this is a numbers games. The target is PAP and not WP not matter how badly you feel about the latter. You do not cut off your nose to spite your face. NSP does not have the track record to cross the hurdle. Under you there was a chance and now its in the hands of the same people and I am sure Hazel is under no illusions who is running the joint.

If you want to help Singaporeans and the opposition and being a numbers guy, it makes so much sense to back WP.
.

Similarly, Singapore should not cut its nose to spite its face too.
Why put more of WP into parliament when they have proven themselves to be a screwed up party. If LTK can't lead a small group of MPs decently, what makes you think he can do better with a bigger bunch?
I would back NSP over WP anytime. They would make a better alternative voice in parliament than WP which is so weak. Remember, extra opposition MPs under WP won't make more or better noise because they are all restricted to saying the same thing.

WP have had their chance and they screwed up badly, lets give other opposition parties a chance too. That way, Singaporeans can only gain from it

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

Dear Scroobal,

You may think WP is the best bet now but for me, better be safe than sorry. We will just have to allow another party grow and become the third force. There are enough room for multi-party system with multi-party balance in parliament. To be over-reliance on WP is a dangerous move. WP members have repeatedly talked about "Two-Party system" implicitly demonstrating their conscious effort in wanting to monopolize the opposition platform. Is this good for Singapore? I really doubt so.

Unfortunately, the example of MK saga has to be cited to demonstrate the irrational and irresponsible (to opposition movement and democratic progress) move made by WP.

The success of GE2011 belongs to every opposition parties taken part in the contest, not just WP. The truth is, without the orchestra of attacks made by NSP, SDP and even RP on the various ministers and their policies, WP would not be able to ride on the waves of general discontent. Of course, we are pleased to take down a few ministers even though we didn't make them lose their seats.

But think carefully, if WP is to become the only dominant opposition party in future, would this WOW effect happen? Let's say all other opposition parties just close shops since you think only WP is worth supporting. Do you really think WP alone can re-create that magical WOW effect which brought PAP down to its knees with its PM pleading for forgiveness?

I have to reiterate here, I have been through WP and know exactly how it functions, strength and weaknesses. Imagine if I had not left WP, I won't be able to do all those things which WP is so reluctant to do all these years and there will not be all the things you have mentioned. There is no bad blood nor bad breath, though I know some of the WP insects are doing all those funny things to me at my back.

The mere thought of what you have suggested would make me shake head for Singapore democratic development. It needs to take a combined effort of all opposition parties to make change possible but WP, due to its own selfish considerations are going to kill the goose that laid the golden eggs.

Goh Meng Seng

If i remember correctly, statistics as well. So you should know that this is a numbers games. The target is PAP and not WP not matter how badly you feel about the latter. You do not cut off your nose to spite your face. NSP does not have the track record to cross the hurdle. Under you there was a chance and now its in the hands of the same people and I am sure Hazel is under no illusions who is running the joint.

 

[elephanto]

We can't say that WP is mocking other parties. Any party would do the same given their situation. They need to grow and expand their party and is bound to step into constituencies that have been contested by other opposition parties in the process. It simply fair game for all. Let the better party win.

Thus far, this is the only sane post you have made. Fair game fair play. Keep it up...

 

[Kinana]

Dear Scroobal,

You may think WP is the best bet now but for me, better be safe than sorry. We will just have to allow another party grow and become the third force. There are enough room for multi-party system with multi-party balance in parliament. To be over-reliance on WP is a dangerous move. WP members have repeatedly talked about "Two-Party system" implicitly demonstrating their conscious effort in wanting to monopolize the opposition platform. Is this good for Singapore? I really doubt so.

I always wondered why WP would even mention such a thing as a two party system when they are only so small.
I guess these guys are just too naive and self centred.

Unfortunately, the example of MK saga has to be cited to demonstrate the irrational and irresponsible (to opposition movement and democratic progress) move made by WP.

In their minds, there is only PAP and WP. That the only mentality that would explain why they did it.
With such a mentality, going into MK makes sense in the long run for them. Its good to test out a three party fight. They had nothing to lose and some experience and testing to gain.

The success of GE2011 belongs to every opposition parties taken part in the contest, not just WP. The truth is, without the orchestra of attacks made by NSP, SDP and even RP on the various ministers and their policies, WP would not be able to ride on the waves of general discontent. Of course, we are pleased to take down a few ministers even though we didn't make them lose their seats.

The point should not be to take down any minister but to change bad policies sir. Lets not be personal.

But think carefully, if WP is to become the only dominant opposition party in future, would this WOW effect happen? Let's say all other opposition parties just close shops since you think only WP is worth supporting. Do you really think WP alone can re-create that magical WOW effect which brought PAP down to its knees with its PM pleading for forgiveness?

Who would keep WP on their toes then? Who would be their co-driver to slap them?

I have to reiterate here, I have been through WP and know exactly how it functions, strength and weaknesses. Imagine if I had not left WP, I won't be able to do all those things which WP is so reluctant to do all these years and there will not be all the things you have mentioned. There is no bad blood nor bad breath, though I know some of the WP insects are doing all those funny things to me at my back.

Maybe that explains why there is all these poison against you mister.

The mere thought of what you have suggested would make me shake head for Singapore democratic development. It needs to take a combined effort of all opposition parties to make change possible but WP, due to its own selfish considerations are going to kill the goose that laid the golden eggs.

LTK is too arrogant. He needs to be humbled.

 

[elephanto]

From GMS reply:

You may think WP is the best bet now but for me, better be safe than sorry.
SAFE? More barren years of breast beating riff raffs who can't have enough political acumen to win elections while always sitting around a campfire preaching we are one united opposition family for untiy sake? What unity on what terms?
SORRY? You have the audacity to be an oracle? Please, get somewhere before all that 'i foresee long ago' talk


We will just have to allow another party grow and become the third force.
ALLOW? you allow, you coerce with your economics-trained logic arguments?
The electorate have not allowed.... Derive truth from facts


There are enough room for multi-party system with multi-party balance in parliament. To be over-reliance on WP is a dangerous move.
PLURALISM can work only if within that plurality there are quality and political resolute fortitude. In spite of your intellectual facade, GMS you have none of the above

WP members have repeatedly talked about "Two-Party system" implicitly demonstrating their conscious effort in wanting to monopolize the opposition platform. Is this good for Singapore? I really doubt so.

Another sign of your stunted views. Other than ruling party as incumbent, WP faced the same obstacles as the others. Where Low exceeds JBJ is his political skills and organizational as well as ground robustness which you are unable to stomach but which is necessary for WP to thrive and in the process became the opp part of CHOICE for The likes of Sylvia Lim, Chen Sow Mao etc. in political resilience and ground skills, i see LTK in the mould of the long line of serious Chinese-educated politicians like Lim Chin Siong. GMS your written English is somewhat better than your verbal form and whilst you can write in Chinese, you lack their characteristic steel.

Unfortunately, the example of MK saga has to be cited to demonstrate the irrational and irresponsible (to opposition movement and democratic progress) move made by WP.

The success of GE2011 belongs to every opposition parties taken part in the contest, not just WP.
SUPERFICIALLY YES, but the general widespread discontent amongst the electorate is such that in the powerful rising tide, even mediocre swimmers take credit thinking their buoyancy is the result of their swimming skills
.
.
.
.



I have to reiterate here, I have been through WP and know exactly how it functions, strength and weaknesses. Imagine if I had not left WP, I won't be able to do all those things which WP is so reluctant to do all these years and there will not be all the things you have mentioned.

What you have done? Coined some esoteric ' minister specific' strategy? Start a malay bureau?
A lot of form - what substance? Eye catching yes! Vote winning? NO!!!
The mere thought of what you have suggested would make me shake head for Singapore democratic development. It needs to take a combined effort of all opposition parties to make change possible but WP, due to its own selfish considerations are going to kill the goose that laid the golden eggs.

SELFISH? Please! Nobody owes anybody. you don't have the courage, conviction and skillset to effective get voters to teanslate their buy-in to vote in, then continue in your ivory tower mentality even if you have been a candidate before. Your theoretician posturing has no chance real politicians who understand commitment and realpolitik.


You on the other hand, holds certain pet proclaimations of embracing certain democratic la-la land ideals , but switching parties then quitting to be commentator /endorsing Tan Kin Lisn while saying you do not think he can win but he is a good man simply confirms your lack of hard nosed political instincts. You only belong in cyberspace and even here, people can no longer take your bullshit.


Lastly, stop using our 1st Chief Minister Marshall's public service credo as your tagline. YOU MENG SENG, ARE NO MARSHALL - worse still your self-styled brilliant political constructs and prognosis are laughable for their lack of primal political feel and judgement!

Your petty fixation over conceding Moulmein-Kallang to this day just show the smallness of your political heart and narrow bandwidth....
Goh Meng Seng[/QUOTE]

 

[Perspective]

At the end of the day, how many parties are enough?

One party is clearly out for most.

Some may not welcome two parties saying its not democratic enough, but USA, UK and a whole host of other countries sold themselves as "democratic" by just this criteria. You can be more "democratic" if you want, but if someone says "three", then why stop at three and not four or more? Then we should promote RP and SDA too. Don't forget that the Three Kingdoms was established through the destruction of Yuan brothers, Ma Teng and so many others, France has 4 parties through the destruction of so many others - is that "democratic" by "destroying" smaller parties?

We can say Indian has 100 parties still not democratic enough, should have 200. So where to draw the line?

I think if people say that 3 is better than 2 without mentioning why 4 is not better than 3, they have to justify rather than just label and demonize.

Also, please tell me which country in this world that holds elections that have not seen smaller parties "destroyed" by being edged out by bigger parties?

But I guess people cornered by my question as well as a whole list of previous questions they were unable to answer would also evade this one.

 

[elephanto]

At the end of the day, how many parties are enough?

One party is clearly out for most.

Some may not welcome two parties saying its not democratic enough, but USA, UK and a whole host of other countries sold themselves as "democratic" by just this criteria. You can be more "democratic" if you want, but if someone says "three", then why stop at three and not four or more? Then we should promote RP and SDA too. Don't forget that the Three Kingdoms was established through the destruction of Yuan brothers, Ma Teng and so many others, France has 4 parties through the destruction of so many others - is that "democratic" by "destroying" smaller parties?

We can say Indian has 100 parties still not democratic enough, should have 200. So where to draw the line?

I think if people say that 3 is better than 2 without mentioning why 4 is not better than 3, they have to justify rather than just label and demonize.

Also, please tell me which country in this world that holds elections that have not seen smaller parties "destroyed" by being edged out by bigger parties?

But I guess people cornered by my question as well as a whole list of previous questions they were unable to answer would also evade this one.

Well said, Perspective, all that moral self-righteousness !
It is simply survival of the fittest,
the most commited. The most hardened the most resilient the most persuasive the most relevant stays.

Nobody 'destroys' anybody. Dont be a cry baby. Grow up or get out if you cant take the heat of the battle.

 

[deepblue0911]

First of all, if you take things so personal, you can't be a good politician or political thinker or a good leader either.
I don't see Goh attacking NSP at all.
He is simply putting forward critical thinking in a non partisan manner as an honest broker. I fully appreciate that.

Singapore does need more people like Goh who sees things in clarity and not be afraid to be open about it. In the long run, Goh can only gain if he has a track record of objectivity to stand on if indeed he still wants to be politically active.

Well, GMS himself did not disagree that he attacked, so I guess you should respect GMS?

GMS has privileged information of WP and NSP. Even without a NDA, any decent person would be careful about disclosure of sensitive insider information. But what did GMS do? He gleefully utilised his insights of the two parties in his blog, this forum and MSM, bathing in the glory and limelight of attention. Sharing ground sentiments given to him by his WP friends, for example, beaming with pride. And then he tells you that he uses logic and reasons, is impartial and objective, in his non-partisan political analysis.

Honest critical thinker? Well, if you think so, then that says a lot about you too. I'm sure you're as wise as GMS. Singapore is so lucky to have the two of you (and the now hardly seen and heard Sadist).

Long live GMS and Kinana, the wise one.

 

[Perspective]

Well said, Perspective, all that moral self-righteousness !
It is simply survival of the fittest,
the most commited. The most hardened the most resilient the most persuasive the most relevant stays.

Nobody 'destroys' anybody. Dont be a cry baby. Grow up or get out if you cant take the heat of the battle.

I'm not bothered by labels of "deserving", "arrogance" or numbers cited, but I place more importance and emphasis on the arguments a forummer actually uses.

The Monster Raving Looney Party is not given a straight fight in any ward in UK, and I think they are more interesting, relevant, deserving and provide more entertainment than any non-PAP, non-WP opposition party in Singapore, which are as straight-laced and duplicate the former two's identities and efforts. Tell me what is so different about any of them from PAP and WP (at the most I will give it to SDP, but not the rest).

 

[scroobal]

If you know your politics, you will know that in any stable democracy anywhere in the world has 2 dominant parties. Any society needs critical mass in both it ruling party and the party in opposition. Good talent will go towards one or the other. Voters also prefer not spread their choices too widely. There might other minor parties in the wings but they will not be dominant. They will have to wait their turn to become No. 2. That is a huge leap.

WP has been Parliament for decades except for a brief period in our history. It has been in Parliament continously for the last 2 decades. In the last GE, they did very well and they slaughtered the GRC sacred cow.

This is not a birthday party where every kid that turns up must get a lollypop.

Try getting a seat in parliament first. Don't worry about WP. It matters little if you know WP inside out as an ex-member you have no standing. Let the voters worry about the WP. If they don't deliver the are other capable people like VW, Michelle etc waiting in the wings. Well qualified, sincere and highly personable.

Please don't worry for the country and please do not do any more favours for the opposition. Uncle Yap took a while but he understood. Not many of us can do what Sylvia, VW and gang do. So we help in other ways. I would suggest that you do the same.

But think carefully, if WP is to become the only dominant opposition party in future, would this WOW effect happen? Let's say all other opposition parties just close shops since you think only WP is worth supporting. Do you really think WP alone can re-create that magical WOW effect which brought PAP down to its knees with its PM pleading for forgiveness?

I have to reiterate here, I have been through WP and know exactly how it functions, strength and weaknesses. Imagine if I had not left WP, I won't be able to do all those things which WP is so reluctant to do all these years and there will not be all the things you have mentioned. There is no bad blood nor bad breath, though I know some of the WP insects are doing all those funny things to me at my back.

The mere thought of what you have suggested would make me shake head for Singapore democratic development. It needs to take a combined effort of all opposition parties to make change possible but WP, due to its own selfish considerations are going to kill the goose that laid the golden eggs.

Goh Meng Seng

 

[Perspective]

If you know your politics, you will know that in any stable democracy anywhere in the world has 2 dominant parties. Any society needs critical mass in both it ruling party and the party in opposition. Good talent will go towards one or the other. Voters also prefer not spread their choices too widely. There might other minor parties in the wings but they will not be dominant. They will have to wait their turn to become No. 2. That is a huge leap.

Agree. Who thinks it is not ridiculous to say that there is no difference between one and two viable parties (by making the silly claim that either one are "monopolies") but a whole world of difference between two and three viable parties.

 

[scroobal]

I am so exasperated with him. He had a good run in GE2011. He did much more than anyone expected. For christ sake, he even managed to get old man to issue a threat about HDB losing its value if MBT is not elected. All he needed to do was build on it.

We can't afford to lose good people like that.

Now suddenly he does even know simple politics. Even the gossips rags can't be bothered about Yaw and his runaway libido. We all know that LTK dropped the ball on Yaw. What he wants LTK to do? - commit suicide in front of GMS . He wants Sylvia to resign and become a nun. Seriously I have no clue how WP and LTK can atone for their sins in order to please him.

The other thing I cannot figure out is his claims about monopoly, dominating opposition politics. He has to learn from VW. Every opportunity he addresses the Govt and its policies. He highlights the issues, he challenges their assumptions and demands action.

No only WP, he also taking Nicole to task. With a guy like that PAP need not even have grassroots leaders.

This guy probably has no idea that Chee is going to come out of bankruptcy and stand for elections in 2016. Chee if he does not realise has changed tact. There is a reason why it is very quiet in the western front.

Agree. Who thinks it is not ridiculous to say that there is no difference between one and two viable parties (by making the silly claim that either one are "monopolies") but a whole world of difference between two and three viable parties.