Why the Biblical Concept of Origin Sin is Wrong!

[Toronto]

I me start the ball rolling by quoting from kopiuncle's post in another thread:

"Hell is right here.

When you are angry, you are in Hell. When you lose your temper and throw tantrums,you are in Hell. When you kill someone and you are filled with guilt , you are in Hell. When you are suffering and inflicted with all sorts of illnesses and diseases, you are in Hell. When you are in abject poverty and live from hand to mouth, you are in Hell. Hell is right here on earth."



kopiuncle's point hell is a mental state.
When you have wicked thoughts like killing or condemning human lifes, you are in a hellish mental state.
When you have good thoughts like love-kindness, you are in a saint-like mental state.

The concept of origin sin where Good and Bad are pre-defined, it is errorneous and wrong!

As mortal beings we are in a constant flip-flop between the 2 states. When you are angry, you are in the negative state.
As a human, I do get angry on and off. The difference between good and bad people is the degree and level. Devious people would be in the negative state on overwhelming times and counts.

Unless someone can claim that he is always in one state only and not the other, otherwise the concept of origin sin is not right!

 

[Toronto]

If one day, I need to steal to provide food for my family, I do not want my Descendants to be called THIEFS.

My own sin, I bear myself. I don't want my bloodline to bear it.

That is one of the many reasons why I am never a CONVERT.

 

[yaosiu]

Yeah lah you can be god youself.

See if you will betray yourself someday.

 

[Toronto]

Yeah lah you can be god youself.

See if you will betray yourself someday.

There is a certain culture(not sinkie) where people will die to save others.

There is another culture (with many pseudo sub-cultures) where people would sacrificed another being to save themselves.

 

[Toronto]

Because of what happened in Eden
When humanity toppled from grace
Every man, every woman, each baby
Bears the sins of the whole human race

Now, I know there are men who are wicked
And some women have evil within
But I cannot see damning a baby
Cos it’s born with original sin…

But they tell me we all need forgiveness
For an act which we cannot atone
It’s a sin that we all share the blame for
But the cure is in Jesus alone

Every man, every woman, each baby
Bears a sin that we never incurred
And for which we’ll be tortured forever
Which is just (taking God at His word).

But we don’t have to make restitution
And there’s nothing we need to repay
When you speak of forgiveness with Jesus
Debts are paid in a whole different way

So a lifetime of sin doesn’t matter
Even babies are going to Hell
Now, they tell me this view is consistent…
It’s consistently evil, as well

And we pray to the Lord for forgiveness
And pretend that it’s more than mere wind
Cos it’s just His opinion that matters
Not the people against whom we’ve sinned

And our notions of morals are useless
Only God has the absolute view
But since God’s fine with torturing babies
Humanity’s values will do...

 

[Toronto]

Think about it, though–as evil as we might be in a lifetime, that’s irrelevant; it’s the mere fact of being human that makes us damnable. So, yeah, babies.

 

[Toronto]

To be clear, then, we are deemed worthy of Hell because of something someone else did. Now, you had an ancestor who was an outlaw; to assert that, say, your daughter should be punished for this ancestor’s crimes would be utter silliness. Even if he killed people (he is alleged to have), to put her in jail for one day for his crimes would be unjust. But it is clear, in this apologetics exercise, that the fall justifies infinite torture for thousands of generations of descendants.

 

[Toronto]

 

[Toronto]

[video=youtube_share;O6XlmVZG7sk]http://youtu.be/O6XlmVZG7sk[/video]

Original sin and sacrifice of Jesus for sin atonement is a Christian concept. No where in Judaism is there "original sin and human sacrifice for atonement."

 

[Toronto]

 

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[Toronto]

The fact should be acknowledged that if the Garden of Eden was so perfect, how did a talking snake get in and who created it (God Himself!)? Plus, it appears this talking snake had “Free Will” and could speak fluent Classical Hebrew. Moreover - contra to Christian theology - the word “Satan” never occurs in Genesis leaving us with just a story of a talking snake supplying Eve with very truthful and accurate information about the Tree of Good and Evil.

 

[Toronto]

From a Biblical perspective, the first lie told in the history of the world was told by God to Adam (notice here that Eve was not yet even created) when God declared: “The LORD God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; but from the tree of knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.” (Genesis 2: 16-17) Thus the Bible clearly records history’s first lie being told by God as “…in the day (ביום) that you eat from it you will surely die.”

 

[Toronto]

n Genesis 3:1 the talking snake not only repeats God’s command, but tells Eve the truth exposing God’s lie: “The serpent said to the woman, “You surely will not die! “For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” (Genesis 3: 4 - 5). Eve eats of the Tree of Good and Evil and totally contrary to God’s promise: Did she die the day she ate it just like God said? No! She gave it to Adam. Did Adam die the day he ate it just like God said? No! Were their eyes opened (totally new information not supplied by a lying God, but truthfully conveyed to Eve via the talking snake)? Yes! *

Fact is, God is not only exposed in His very own book (the Bible) as a liar, but from the facts presented in Genesis we also MUST conclude that either God has very limited abilities (just like the humans he created) or God is just one constant liar! The example for this is Genesis 3: 8-9. Here either God really does NOT know where Adam and Eve are (“They heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden. Then the LORD God called to the man, and said to him, “Where are you?’” Genesis 3: 8 – 9) or God really did know where Adam and Eve were hiding and just plainly lied again! (Apologetically, the claim is made that, “Well God really knew where they were, but He just wanted them to acknowledge what they had done (ate of the tree). However, this apologetic ploy makes the situation even more confusing as they already knew what they did . . . that’s very reason they hid in the first place! So if this apologetic answer is accepted, then God is at best making very insincere muddled statements or just lying yet again.

 

[Toronto]

Once Adam and Eve are located, the story has Eve lie so God won’t look like “the father of all lies” that He is: “Then the LORD God said to the woman, “What is this you have done?” And the woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.” (Genesis 3: 13). Fact is, there was no deception at all as exactly everything the snake said was true and accurate!

Now it’s time for God to lie some more in his only address to the talking snake: “The LORD God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this, Cursed are you more than all cattle, And more than every beast of the field; On your belly you will go, And dust you will eat All the days of your life; (Genesis 3: 14).

Just how are cattle “cursed”? Just how are “every beast of the field” cursed? Hell, all the animals and humans involved in this story are still in the Garden of Eden when God makes this wild statement about cattle and beast being cursed as if they had sinned too! When we consider God’s curse on the snake; can anyone provide any scientific fact (apart from secular evolution) that snakes could walk, talk and that all snakes they now feed on dirt??

 

[Toronto]

Conclusion
Let’s list all the lies God told in Genesis 2 – 3:
1. God lied to Adam about dying the day as he ate of the “Tree of Good and Evil” (First recorded lie in Biblical history).
2. According to Christian doctrine God is all knowing (omniscience), thus the second lie by God is when He asked Adam and Eve “Where are you?”
3. God knowingly allowed Eve to lie to protect his character so the blame could be shifted to the snake. By not correcting Eve’s claim, God is complicitous in Eve’s lie.
4. Since God hates the truth, He now punishes the snake.
5. Finally, God curses the snake by removing his legs, (though not explicitly stated; also its ability to speak) and then lies about making all future snakes feed on dust / dirt.
Thus the five lies of God compose the real “Original Sins”. However, sadly God attacked both the snake and humanity due to His own evil lying character. For the Apostle Paul (whose letters and theology make up two thirds of the New Testament) this wild illogical story is used to push salvation on the gentile world as a sin unto death passed on to all humanity. **

*For Christians to claim that Adam and Eve (like the rest of humanity) died a “Spiritual Death” that day only begs the question even more as they were NEVER promised a spiritual life by God in the first place! This is pure conjecture on the part of Christianity trying to vindicate a lying God!
**Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned (Romans 5: 12)

 

[spudmania]

Adam eating the apple marks the beginning of dualism.... Prior to that, there was no good or bad, tall or short, big or small. I mean there is, but in the garden of eden, adam don't see the world like that. it is after being banished that dualism happens. we begin to see this duality of life. going to heaven will be like going back to eden where dualism doesn't exist, where you will be in a higher state of mind. you don't need to die to go to heaven. you can attain "enlightenment while alive as well".

I think the concept of the original sin is dumb as well. But what's true in this story is that the woman always screw it up for the man. how many kingdoms, empires and civilization fall all because of woman? plenty... not intended to sound sexist but just stating the facts. but as well, man from the beginning of time thinks with our other head. adam must be thinking, if don't eat then eve will be angry and cannot hump her tonight, so better eat la!

 

[Toronto]

spudmania,
Look at the sex related scandals that hit the headlines one after another, woman is responsibility for the downfall of some high position men.

The latest Asean NUS scholar from Malaysia is the only successfully story where a woman has helped man to gain stardom in a scandal.