Serious What are the exact words Nupur Sharma said?

[ChanRasjid]

Many people are frustrated that nobody quoted the exact words Nupur Sharma said, me included. There seems to be a total internet censorship of the actual words said. The only thing I know is that it involved either of the hadith below.

It was narrated that 'Aishah said:
"The Messenger of Allah married me when I was six, and consummated the marriage with me when I was nine, and I used to play with dolls."

Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith 5134:
"that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that `Aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death).

This second hadiths is taken by nearly all Muslim scholars to be highly reliable.

I hope someone can post the actual words here - only here would there be no censorship. Anyone has some private source?

"Einstein's E=mc² Is Invalid"
Chan Rasjid Kah Chew,
Singapore.
http://www.emc2fails.com

 

[ChanRasjid]

I have got this in some Youtube comments:

Quote: She said in Hindi to the opposition leader:
"Since you are making fun of my God, shall I start talking about how in your book your god married a girl of 6 and had sex with her at 9 and according to that book earth is flat and the man flew on horse"
Unquote.

I am not sure if the part of "according to that book earth is flat and the man flew on horse".

I only know the Prophet rode on camels, not horses.

 

[ChanRasjid]

Anyone knows Hindi here? Please transcribe the volleys.

 

[Willamshakespear]

There will be always be many misinterpretations of prophet Mohammad, whom had lead the barbaric nomadic tribes into civilization in the 7th Century. One point we MODERN Humankind is to NEVER judge his actions based solely on modern lenses, even if we are not Muslims, & of a mainstream religion by many that worships our common Creator that is known by many names across time, space & culture.

It was a different era back then, far more exclusive than today. Many modern Humans had condemned the 4 wives issues in that era of monogamous marriages. However, back in that era, women had little rights, were treated as chattels, with NO rights to any inheritance, & as such, with nomadic existence base upon desperate barbaric jungle laws of kill others or be killed, with the Rule of Law non-existent, wives were left with no husbands to provide for the family, worse when upheavals occurred when fights broke out from those whom opposed prophet Muhammad's foresight on survival.

As such, there were many widows & orphans whom where in desperate need to survive, or else have to die. Being an empath & Divinely chosen, the only pragmatic solution to protect them was to discuss & enact a law to allow men, whom were dominant even today, to marry up to a max 4 wives, to take care of them, & WITH strict laws on how such a man have to conduct & care for them.

As for orphans, empath prophet Mohammed knew that in the era where arabs & barbaric new converts would take time to progress, he pitied the kids, & took even a 6 yrs old kid as wife, to protect them as he was in a position of power then. Consummation or not within a marriage, only the ones laying on the bed will know, & privacy was STILL an institution back then. Who claimed it was consummated? Did the prophet himself admitted to it, or had it been put in his mouth by latter scholars? It was ambiguous & in that barbaric era, virility was applauded, or the lack of it was ostracism.

What was admitted & based upon religious texts back then was that he took pains to protect the rights of women & kids. He was more than 50yrs old back then, & today's science proved that most men at such age would have issues with sexual activities even back then, & a virgin would have a very tight vagina. The insignificant nobody me meant no offense to anyone & humbly apologize if anyone does so.

 

[nirvarq]

Mohammad (PBUH) had 7 children, 4 female and 3 male.

All except Ibrahim was with Bibi Maria the rest were from Khadija (R.A).

Aisha was 19 when he died.

He had many adopted sons and daughters but the Prophet didn't have any children after that. It was prolly a political tied marriage rather than Love or for Sex.

He has many followers and a holy man. Use your common sense.........


"BELIEVE NOTHING, NO MATTER WHERE YOU READ IT, OR WHO SAID, NO MATTER IF I HAVE SAID IT, UNLESS IT AGREES WITH YOUR OWN REASON & YOUR OWN COMMON SENSE

~❤Gautama Buddha

 

[JohnTan]

here will be always be many misinterpretations of prophet Mohammad, whom had lead the barbaric nomadic tribes into civilization in the 7th Century.

Actually, there were no misintepretations of the moslem prophet muhammad. What Nupur Sharma, and many of us did, were simply to quote directly from the hadiths. It appears that moslems were offended by how the hadiths narrated that their prophet had sex with a kid, raided caravans and ordered his goons to torture people to death to find out where they hide their money.

One point we MODERN Humankind is to NEVER judge his actions based solely on modern lenses, even if we are not Muslims,

That's on moslems, not us.

Moslems want to make a Jesus out of their muhammad, after learning that Christians call Jesus as the perfect human, who did no wrong and committed no crime. So the moslems now call their muhammad the best human, the perfect example for all mankind for all times, just like what Christians call Jesus.

This is how the religion of islam evolved over time. Their religious doctrine is not static. Prior to making their muhammad look like a Jesus, moslems of the past had no problems with describing their own prophet as a successful bandit, slave owner and a guy who had sex with a kid, all of which were not considered evil behavior in the moslem societies.

 

[ChanRasjid]

To John Tan,

OK. This thread is meant to be serious unlike the many others which we all know are just silliness to pass times. I have never been offended by John Tan's post about his often outrages post about the Prophet, etc because none here would take them as serious stuff.

But about this: "It appears that moslems were offended by how the hadiths narrated that their prophet had sex with a kid, raided caravans and ordered his goons to torture people to death to find out where they hide their money."

For seriousness and to put facts straight, there is no hadith about raiding caravans or torture people ... The hadith about "6 and 9 years old" is quoted all over the internet and no Muslim scholars ever dismissed them as made up stories by enemies of Islam in order to insult the Prophet.

I read a brief biography of Al-Bukhari. He was a highly respected Islamic theologians so no one wanted to change anything in the collections of hadith (sayings of the Prophet) which he compiled, even the one about the marriage of Aisha at six, etc. The biography mentioned Al-Bukhari had an almost miraculous photographic memory.

Aisha was the daughter of Abu Bakr, a closest companion of the Prophet, older than the prophet and who became the first Caliph of Islam. The "marriage was approved" (I don't know really what it meant in those ancient times) by Abu Bakr himself.

About this Napur Sharma mess, I think it is not just those words that I quoted above. To get a true picture, someone has to transcribe the full TV debate, not just one of Sharma's statements.

I am never a LKY worshipper, but I do acknowledge he did many things right. I knew of a rather famous Malay Iman in Singapore many years back who wanted to organize a Christian-Muslim debate - to probably debate which of the religion is authentic. The Singapore government (LKY ?) prevented it - wisely.

"Einstein's E=mc² Is Invalid"
Chan Rasjid Kah Chew,
Singapore.
http://www.emc2fails.com

 

[JohnTan]

For seriousness and to put facts straight, there is no hadith about raiding caravans or torture people ... The hadith about "6 and 9 years old" is quoted all over the internet and no Muslim scholars ever dismissed them as made up stories by enemies of Islam in order to insult the Prophet.

You sure? It's easy to find a hadith about muhammad ordering his goons to torture people.

Kenana al-Rabi, who had the custody of the treasure of Banu Nadir, was brought to the apostle who asked him about it. He denied that he knew where it was. A Jew came (Tabari says "was brought"), to the apostle and said that he had seen Kenana going round a certain ruin every morning early. When the apostle said to Kenana, "Do you know that if we find you have it I shall kill you?" He said "Yes". . When he asked him about the rest he refused to produce it, so the apostle gave orders to al-Zubayr Al-Awwam, "Torture him until you extract what he has." So he kindled a fire with flint and steel on his chest until he was nearly dead. Then the apostle delivered him to Muhammad b. Maslama and he struck off his head, in revenge for his brother Mahmud

I read a brief biography of Al-Bukhari. He was a highly respected Islamic theologians so no one wanted to change anything in the collections of hadith (sayings of the Prophet) which he compiled, even the one about the marriage of Aisha at six, etc. The biography mentioned Al-Bukhari had an almost miraculous photographic memory.

If Bukhari was alive today, he would have been lynched by moslems for describing the moslem prophet as a pedo and caravan robber, instead of the Jesus of Arabia.

Even if one had a photographic memory, if they are memorizing crap, it is still crap.

Aisha was the daughter of Abu Bakr, a closest companion of the Prophet, older than the prophet and who became the first Caliph of Islam. The "marriage was approved" (I don't know really what it meant in those ancient times) by Abu Bakr himself.

Abu Bakr wasn't dumb. He knew what his "prophet" was up to. After the muslim prophet died, Abu Bakr took over power by a combination of intrigue and force of arms, and got his guys to execute whatever family members of muhammad still around. Maybe that was what Abu Bakr really thought of Muhammad marrying his little daughter.

I am never a LKY worshipper, but I do acknowledge he did many things right. I knew of a rather famous Malay Iman in Singapore many years back who wanted to organize a Christian-Muslim debate - to probably debate which of the religion is authentic. The Singapore government (LKY ?) prevented it - wisely.

The muud imam simply wanted a public forum to insult and humiliate the Christians in the name of "religious debate". He would have likely called for a riot and jihad if his own islamic religion and his intellect was ridiculed during the debate. Ah Gong wisely knew what this muud was up to and put an end to his deception before it even started.

 

[ChanRasjid]

Quote/ John Tan:"You sure? It's easy to find a hadith about muhammad ordering his goons to torture people.

Kenana al-Rabi, who had the custody of the treasure of Banu Nadir, was brought to the apostle who asked him about it. He denied that he knew where it was. A Jew came (Tabari says "was brought"), to the apostle and said that he had seen Kenana going round a certain ruin every morning early. When the apostle said to Kenana, "Do you know that if we find you have it I shall kill you?" He said "Yes". . When he asked him about the rest he refused to produce it, so the apostle gave orders to al-Zubayr Al-Awwam, "Torture him until you extract what he has." So he kindled a fire with flint and steel on his chest until he was nearly dead. Then the apostle delivered him to Muhammad b. Maslama and he struck off his head, in revenge for his brother Mahmud"
/unquote

...but you cannot name which compilation of hadith, which hadith number,etc. I gave Al-Bukhari, Hadith xyz...which you could google and find.

There are other compilations of hadith by other authors besides the main recognized ones like Al-Bukhari, but many of those had been "graded" as unreliable, etc unlike those of Al-Bukhari.

"Einstein's E=mc² Is Invalid"
Chan Rasjid Kah Chew,
Singapore.
http://www.emc2fails.com

 

[ChanRasjid]

Quote/ John Tan:"You sure? It's easy to find a hadith about muhammad ordering his goons to torture people.

Kenana al-Rabi, who had the custody of the treasure of Banu Nadir, was brought to the apostle who asked him about it. He denied that he knew where it was. A Jew came (Tabari says "was brought"), to the apostle and said that he had seen Kenana going round a certain ruin every morning early. When the apostle said to Kenana, "Do you know that if we find you have it I shall kill you?" He said "Yes". . When he asked him about the rest he refused to produce it, so the apostle gave orders to al-Zubayr Al-Awwam, "Torture him until you extract what he has." So he kindled a fire with flint and steel on his chest until he was nearly dead. Then the apostle delivered him to Muhammad b. Maslama and he struck off his head, in revenge for his brother Mahmud"
/unquote

...but you cannot name which compilation of hadith, which hadith number,etc. I gave Al-Bukhari, Hadith xyz...which you could google and find.

There are other compilations of hadith by other authors besides the main recognized ones like Al-Bukhari, but many of those had been "graded" as unreliable, etc unlike those of Al-Bukhari.

"Einstein's E=mc² Is Invalid"
Chan Rasjid Kah Chew,
Singapore.
http://www.emc2fails.com

If anyone care to find out:

Rebuttal to Silas's Article "MUHAMMAD AND THE DEATH OF KINANA" by Bassam Zawadi
https://www.call-to-monotheism.com/rebuttal_to_silas_s_article__muhammad_and_the_death_of_kinana_

"page 515 reads:
"Kinana al-Rabi, who had the custody of the treasure of Banu Nadir, was brought to the apostle who asked him about it. He denied that he knew where it was. A Jew came (Tabari says "was brought"), to the apostle and said that he had seen Kinana going round a certain ruin every morning early. When the apostle said to Kinana, "Do you know that if we find you have it I shall kill you?" He said "Yes". The apostle gave orders that the ruin was to be excavated and some of the treasure was found. When he asked him about the rest he refused to produce it, so the apostle gave orders to al-Zubayr Al-Awwam, "Torture him until you extract what he has." So he kindled a fire with flint and steel on his chest until he was nearly dead. Then the apostle delivered him to Muhammad b. Maslama and he struck off his head, in revenge for his brother Mahmud."

My Response:

Many anti Islamics have used this incident of the torture of Kinana to attack the integrity of the Prophet. When I first read about it, I myself was quite shocked that the Prophet would torture some one just because of some treasure.

...Now back to the Kinana issue. Actually the source of this story is invalid. Not because the source is weak, but because there is no source!"

"Einstein's E=mc² Is Invalid"
Chan Rasjid Kah Chew,
Singapore.
http://www.emc2fails.com

 

[JohnTan]

Quote/ John Tan:"You sure? It's easy to find a hadith about muhammad ordering his goons to torture people.

You could highlight the text you want to respond to, and then click 'Reply'.

...but you cannot name which compilation of hadith, which hadith number,etc. I gave Al-Bukhari, Hadith xyz...which you could google and find.

You wanted a hadith, I gave you one. The hadith came from moslem sources. Reliable or not, it's a moslem source.

There are other compilations of hadith by other authors besides the main recognized ones like Al-Bukhari, but many of those had been "graded" as unreliable, etc unlike those of Al-Bukhari.

Here's a Bukahri hadith on torture. In the past, it was common to execute murderers, and horse and cattle thieves. Execute, not torture them to them slowly to death.


Narrated Anas bin Malik: A group of eight men from the tribe of 'Ukil came to the Prophet and then they found the climate of Medina unsuitable for them. So, they said, "O Allah's Apostle! Provide us with some milk." Allah's Apostle said, "I recommend that you should join the herd of camels." So they went and drank the urine and the milk of the camels (as a medicine) till they became healthy and fat. Then they killed the shepherd and drove away the camels, and they became unbelievers after they were Muslims. When the Prophet was informed by a shouter for help, he sent some men in their pursuit, and before the sun rose high, they were brought, and he had their hands and feet cut off. Then he ordered for nails which were heated and passed over their eyes, and whey were left in the Harra (i.e. rocky land in Medina). They asked for water, and nobody provided them with water till they died (Abu Qilaba, a sub-narrator said, "They committed murder and theft and fought against Allah and His Apostle, and spread evil in the land.") - Sahih Bukhari 1:4:234

 

[Filloz]

Then they killed the shepherd and drove away the camels, and they became unbelievers after they were Muslims. When the Prophet was informed by a shouter for help, he sent some men in their pursuit, and before the sun rose high, they were brought, and he had their hands and feet cut off. Then he ordered for nails which were heated and passed over their eyes, and whey were left in the Harra (i.e. rocky land in Medina). They asked for water, and nobody provided them with water till they died (Abu Qilaba, a sub-narrator said, "They committed murder and theft and fought against Allah and His Apostle, and spread evil in the land.") - Sahih Bukhari 1:4:234

Islam world will do the same to this shitskin sharma provoker.

 

[ChanRasjid]

Here's a Bukahri hadith on torture. In the past, it was common to execute murderers, and horse and cattle thieves. Execute, not torture them to them slowly to death.


Narrated Anas bin Malik: A group of eight men from the tribe of 'Ukil came to the Prophet and then they found the climate of Medina unsuitable for them. So, they said, "O Allah's Apostle! Provide us with some milk." Allah's Apostle said, "I recommend that you should join the herd of camels." So they went and drank the urine and the milk of the camels (as a medicine) till they became healthy and fat. Then they killed the shepherd and drove away the camels, and they became unbelievers after they were Muslims. When the Prophet was informed by a shouter for help, he sent some men in their pursuit, and before the sun rose high, they were brought, and he had their hands and feet cut off. Then he ordered for nails which were heated and passed over their eyes, and whey were left in the Harra (i.e. rocky land in Medina). They asked for water, and nobody provided them with water till they died (Abu Qilaba, a sub-narrator said, "They committed murder and theft and fought against Allah and His Apostle, and spread evil in the land.") - Sahih Bukhari 1:4:234

OK. I googled and found almost the same. If you think it means Islam is a religion of torture, I have no comment. I'll leave it to you. I generally have not much interest in religion - to pursue details to the end - no time for such.

It seems to me you read fairly widely on the religion of Islam.

"Einstein's E=mc² Is Invalid"
Chan Rasjid Kah Chew,
Singapore.
http://www.emc2fails.com

 

[JohnTan]

OK. I googled and found almost the same. If you think it means Islam is a religion of torture, I have no comment. I'll leave it to you. I generally have not much interest in religion - to pursue details to the end - no time for such.

I needed to put in some details, otherwise oppies would accuse me of being a liar.

It doesn't mean islam is a religion of torture. It just meant that the founder of islam, used torture on people. If you think a man who ordered thieves to have their hands and legs chopped off, and their eyes blinded with hot metal, is a perfect man, it's your own choice. But you should not throw a tantrum or start a riot when others disagree with your choice of muhammad being a good or perfect man.

 

[ChanRasjid]

I needed to put in some details, otherwise oppies would accuse me of being a liar.

It doesn't mean islam is a religion of torture. It just meant that the founder of islam, used torture on people. If you think a man who ordered thieves to have their hands and legs chopped off, and their eyes blinded with hot metal, is a perfect man, it's your own choice. But you should not throw a tantrum or start a riot when others disagree with your choice of muhammad being a good or perfect man.

When I mention "details" in Islam and religion - as in hadith, Quran - I include the historical context, whatever... which I have no time to pursue with just one lifetime!

OK. I know now you have a difference in opinion concerning the character of the Prophet of Islam. The Muslims consider him perfect(Allah knows best), but you disagree, that he had many imperfections, "badness"(exact terms you would used censored)...I have no comments here on the issue as I don't have a degree in Islam from Al-Azhar University.

As for "But you should not throw a tantrum or start a riot when others disagree with your choice of muhammad being a good or perfect man.", I have not thrown any tantrum here in Sammyboys!

"Einstein's E=mc² Is Invalid"
Chan Rasjid Kah Chew,
Singapore.
http://www.emc2fails.com

 

[mudhatter]

Hadiths contradict themselves often and many of them contradict the Quran.

Hadiths are not even compiled or recorded in precise form. For the same Hadith, you would find different narrations, sentences, syntax, sources with differing details.

Nowhere in the Quran is it said that Hadiths are going to be protected from corruption. Just like Jewish Torah or Talmud, or Zabur (what is the English term?), or Injil (bible) were subsequently corrupted, so were Hadiths - which are merely accounts of what Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) said and did.

Hadiths are not words of God.

idiotic third world low IQ Muslims were brainwashed to believe so they believe blindly in Hadiths and Quran exactly like their local scholar tells them to. their local scholars are of course controlled by their governments who are mostly puppets or vassals of kafir countries. end result is you find a lot of contradictions. at the highest level, without independence, as occupied countries or as puppets and vassals, of course, you would remain at the beck and call of your enemies

as a result, Islamic traditions and rites and rituals assume local flavours are moulded according to local customs and conditions.

nobody in their right mind would believe Islamic knowledge or practices in Uzbekistan before and after invasion and occupation by the kafir russkies would be the same or identical. same with east turkestan before and after invasion and occupation by the kafir chinks.
ditto for puppets and vassal states install all around the wider middle east north africa central asia afro negro regions bangla paki indon melayun country


and iran, as we have said, is at best a mediocre country even as it remains the most independent oic member
its potential is low

out of necessity, if you consider it that way, it's forced to take a lot of hits coz with a teeny tiny population of 80 million it just hasnot got enough talent to take on and defeat and surpass ~1 billion westerners, or even 1.4 billion ceca virus or 1.4 billion tiongs

it can't even surpass 140 million russkies

it can hardly surpass 125 million japs or 80 million germans in almost anything of importance except missile tech, even there jap space program is eons more advanced

so it's plausible that japs and germans are behind iran in missile tech only because they are occupied countriees and yankee vassal states, thus missile tech development is forbidden

 

[ChristJohnny]

I said many many times ... religion is not the issue ... its people are the defining factor.
It is not a coincidence that All Middle East countires, South America (with the exception of Argentina & Uruguay), Africa, SEA, South Asia, Central Asia remain backward. Even though they are of different religion and beliefs.

It is their IQ that prevent them from moving forward. Sad to say that they will remain backwards for the foreseeable future. This is a fact.

Race and IQ

 

[JohnTan]

OK. I know now you have a difference in opinion concerning the character of the Prophet of Islam. The Muslims consider him perfect(Allah knows best), but you disagree, that he had many imperfections, "badness"(exact terms you would used censored)...I have no comments here on the issue as I don't have a degree in Islam from Al-Azhar University.

You don't need a degree in islam before commenting on islam.

The moslem's only real prophet, muhammad, was widely known to be illiterate. He certainly had no degree in any form of religious studies. But that didn't stop him from inventing his own islamic religion or giving his opinion on other religions.

People taunting you to get a degree before commenting on anything is just a way to shut you up because they have no good response to your questions.

If we need a degree before we can have an opinion, then perhaps start by getting a degree in English first, because that's our main language of communication. It's another way of saying "no degree in English, don't even bother to talk."

 

[ChanRasjid]

You don't need a degree in islam before commenting on islam.

The moslem's only real prophet, muhammad, was widely known to be illiterate. He certainly had no degree in any form of religious studies. But that didn't stop him from inventing his own islamic religion or giving his opinion on other religions.

People taunting you to get a degree before commenting on anything is just a way to shut you up because they have no good response to your questions.

If we need a degree before we can have an opinion, then perhaps start by getting a degree in English first, because that's our main language of communication. It's another way of saying "no degree in English, don't even bother to talk."

There is a great difference between your opinion of yourself and my opinion of myself.

You do believe your are qualified to comment on the truth about the prophet Muhammad as you have "read widely on Islam" - various Al-Buhkhari hadith, the Quran,etc. and maybe some other materials. You indeed have the "freedom of believe" to be totally convince of your opinions.

I am totally different from you. I am totally convinced, though a Muslim, that I know almost next to nothing about the truth about Islam and about the true nature of the Prophet Muhammad. You may then asked:"Then why don't you convert to Chinesism, Christianity, Buddhism, Sikhism, Judaism...? ". My answer:"Converting back to Chinesism has its problems (real reasons unmentionable, thus censored). Converting to Sikhism means I have to wear a turban,...learning to tie a turban is a great skill requiring years of practice...". Make life simple...just go on as usual and don't think ....

But if you asked me instead if I am qualified to comment on Einstein's relativity, I'll answer "Yes. I am the only authority on planet earth fit to make statements on the subject." That's because I have examined Einstein's relativity enough to make absolute statements on it.

"Einstein's E=mc² Is Invalid"
Chan Rasjid Kah Chew,
Singapore.
http://www.emc2fails.com

 

[ChanRasjid]

Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith 5134 (a strong hadith):
"that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that `Aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death).

Indeed, I think if a Muslim is asked about this hadith, it would be a real problem. I doubt any could give a satisfying reply as most people would only accept as reference the views of our modern age. I think this is why when Nupur Sharma brought up the "...6 and 9 years...", it caused an uproar in the Muslim world. I humbly apologize that I cannot comment on which side is right or wrong as I don't have a degree from Al-Azhar University.

Incidentally, this is the first time I read about this hadith(or have totally forgotten about it). Am I qualified to make a comment on this hadith 5134? Of course not! When I converted to Islam, I was told that Allah is the creator of everything. Until now, I still do not have any detail understanding of Allah. I think only people who have a good knowledge of Allah can comment on this hadith. For this, I believe a Muslim need to put in at least 80 years of deep study on the hadith and the Quran before he could pass an opinion on this particular hadith. Counting with my fingers, I think there are now at most only five Muslims in Singapore who are qualified to comment on this hadith. I am not one of them.

"Einstein's E=mc² Is Invalid"
Chan Rasjid Kah Chew,
Singapore.
http://www.emc2fails.com