VERY VERY INPORTANT NEWS: New Water Exposed!! Si Liao Lah!

[Trout]

So folks have a very good thought for the cost & price of water in sillypore.

If people got lost in the math, here is the gist:
we are getting water from PUB at around the same price as the Arabs are getting their water at from very expensive seawater desalination processes.

Cheers,
Trout

Tommy:
SWRO water is normally quoted at $2/cu...think this figure is correct as of 2000, has RO technology progressed that far in 1 decade to get the cost down to $1/cu?

 

[Nice-Gook]

If people got lost in the math, here is the gist:
we are getting water from PUB at around the same price as the Arabs are getting their water at from very expensive seawater desalination processes.

<style></style>Frankly I speculate all this Newater thingy is for the consumption of overseas market.After arms sale I would figure water purification plants are gonna be highest in demand in future.Many countries are now depleting their water resources including their underground water table.So purification and recycling of sewerage water is a foreseeable future.PAP had thus using us poor sinkies as their experiment for their future markets.Of course PAP can also claim one upmanship over their water negotiation with the Malaysians.

 

[Trout]

<style></style>Frankly I speculate all this Newater thingy is for the consumption of overseas market.After arms sale I would figure water purification plants are gonna be highest in demand in future.Many countries are now depleting their water resources including their underground water table.So purification and recycling of sewerage water is a foreseeable future.PAP had thus using us poor sinkies as their experiment for their future markets.Of course PAP can also claim one upmanship over their water negotiation with the Malaysians.

That's why I'm in this area, doing work on membranes and making suggestions on better process/infrastructure design. Food-Water-Energy shortages will be the biggest challenge facing the project of human civilization in this century.

Cheers,
Trout

 

[Leegimeremover]

A

Cheers,
Trout

> Well, its not like the malaysian water we get is very clean to begin with, and we've been quite happy with it for a very long time.

You are right, the point I was trying to drive across to some idiot. I could do it even more graphically, but it would be religiously insulting.


>Actually 1 miniature treatment plant can essentially be contained with a 40 ft shipping container and made to sit on top of a block of flats. I have designed and built a couple of those container membrane plants with sufficient daily flow to supply a block of flats. I actually do think we can massively decentralize the treatment infrastructure to near PoU locations.

I agree with you and have seen such data on units before. Some toy with microturbines as the power source. My reservation is I am not sure what people flush down our water systems. I do not know how much it could burden the system. One needs to consult and expert on this and understand what we are getting into.

>And really, you don't need RO membranes with raw reservoir water, just UF membranes would sufficient, and then post UF-treatment with UV (to kill any microbes which might have permeated) and activated carbon filter (to bind any possible EDCs which might have permeated).

Yup, you are right, so long as raw reservoir water is not contaminated with other heavy duty ugly substances, which in most countries is not. UV will kill or inactivated any living organisms.

 

[Leegimeremover]

If people got lost in the math, here is the gist:
we are getting water from PUB at around the same price as the Arabs are getting their water at from very expensive seawater desalination processes.

Cheers,
Trout

Tommy:
SWRO water is normally quoted at $2/cu...think this figure is correct as of 2000, has RO technology progressed that far in 1 decade to get the cost down to $1/cu?

The last publicized cost was $1.15/m3 last year or the year before. Somebody probably wants to accelerate the payback time.

 

[Leegimeremover]

<style></style>Frankly I speculate all this Newater thingy is for the consumption of overseas market.After arms sale I would figure water purification plants are gonna be highest in demand in future.Many countries are now depleting their water resources including their underground water table.So purification and recycling of sewerage water is a foreseeable future.PAP had thus using us poor sinkies as their experiment for their future markets.Of course PAP can also claim one upmanship over their water negotiation with the Malaysians.

The technology was never Singapore Singapore to begin with. We took Japanese and US technology but did better at business marketing. If I remember correctly, the US Army was motivated to convert pee into water in desert condition, much like Dune.

 

[Leegimeremover]

>If one want to minimize opex costs, generally the capex goes up.
You are right, general rule of thumb.

I am not sure if we can depress wages in Singapore forever if land and property prices continue to rise. That will really screw the balancing of equation.

>However, what one gain on economies of scale, it lose on operational flexibility when is particularly critical when all sort of funny things start happening the older the whole infrastructure gets.

Good to know we still have smart people like you in Singapore who understands this. Time is the killer. It is like juggling objects on a conveyor belt to make sure nothing falls

>Have always been in the belief that real-time flexibility is superior to anticipated economies of scale obtained by centralizing.

Agreed. I subscribe to this belief because it is exciting. But this belief is based on inductive thinking, statistics and betting that we cover all the grounds that are significant with no sudden tipping point. Data collection and robust simulation over a policy making friendly time frame is key. Problem is people get lazy over centralization while real-time flexibility works best only if you have computer model that can predict fast enough for you to make the adjustments and contingencies. How much to optimize and what time frame to use for optimization and how much resource to devote to the optimization is the Devil.

Most people in governments are lazy. Trade-off of providing security. Governments who do not need to be public-sensitive do not listen well, even when a tornado is knocking at the door.

 

[Leegimeremover]

BTW, your common sense Maths is no sense at all.

I will give you the lead. If the piping system last 100 years (it should last more), you should calculate the projection of total amount of water possibly used within these 100 years, taking into consideration of population growth. 30% of that and you calculate the potential savings vs New Water. This should be the proper way of making comparison study, not your kind of coffeeshop calculations.

Furthermore, while the costing of reconfiguration of piping is fixed, New Water treatment fees is not. It means that the difference in pricing between New Water and non-portable water produced may vary. Do your Maths and see whether the sunk cost is worthy of investment.

Goh Meng Seng

I do not know which financial engineering textbook or top university in the world you go to. Perhaps it must be Goh Meng Seng School of Public Policy making. No concept of ROI, no concept of policy making time frame, no concept of material lifespan for accounting and architectural legal compliance, no idea of recycling no idea contingency planning, no idea of water demand. Must be a world class School of Public Administration you come from. Why not go share your ideas with the top minds in the world. No PAP person will be laughing at you just other brilliant minds. You do not know when to quit when you know nothing. I am damned sure you cannot do a simple feasibility study on excel sheet, prioritize the cost, technical and geographical constraints and give alternative models for comparison. You are way out of your league. I already discount political, legal and religious constraints. All this requires a multi-dimensional analysis. You are struggling with 2. I hope you are not the real GMS in person.

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

Most probably you didn't take public finance.

No wonder Singaporeans like you could tolerate PAP's govt-business model! Or rather, I would say PAP has successfully sold the idea of "corporate=government" so much so that people no longer understand what public goods are. Well, if by ROI, no roads would be built without ERP gantries... wait, is that why we have so many ERP gantries along the new express way?

As I have said, such model is NOT NEW and it existed elsewhere in the world. The nearest is Hong Kong. Do you really think you could be smarter than Hong Kongers in calculating ROI? Hong Kong is not even a country and face no potential adverse "foreign relationshop" that may jeopardize water supply but yet they find the need or rather, necessity to to build non-portable water system for toilet flushing!

It is ok if you just think that Singapore has the best model in having more costly New Water as raw water supplement. Yes, just RAW WATER SUPPLEMENT. That is of course, good ROI for you but definitely not for me.

Construction of alternative piping system could just start from new Town development. Old flats will bound to be redeveloped in time to come. It is a long term plan that could be implemented by stages. The key is whether you understand the need for alternative water conservation strategy at this stage.

Goh Meng Seng

I do not know which financial engineering textbook or top university in the world you go to. Perhaps it must be Goh Meng Seng School of Public Policy making. No concept of ROI, no concept of policy making time frame, no concept of material lifespan for accounting and architectural legal compliance, no idea of recycling no idea contingency planning, no idea of water demand. Must be a world class School of Public Administration you come from. Why not go share your ideas with the top minds in the world. No PAP person will be laughing at you just other brilliant minds. You do not know when to quit when you know nothing. I am damned sure you cannot do a simple feasibility study on excel sheet, prioritize the cost, technical and geographical constraints and give alternative models for comparison. You are way out of your league. I already discount political, legal and religious constraints. All this requires a multi-dimensional analysis. You are struggling with 2. I hope you are not the real GMS in person.

 

[eatshitndie]

Actually its not that complicated if the alternate water supply pipes are only differentiated near PoU if need be. The water mains just carries the raw reservoir feed water (sand-filtered to rid of suspended solids before it enters the mains) as opposed to tertiary treated fresh water which it is carrying now.

The supply differentiation only occurs before PoU. In industrial estates requiring high quality water, drinking water and raw water, the raw reservoir water is split into 2 streams, one which get channeled into the grey water supply system for your typical flushing, irrigation use, and the other to a small treatment plant which is subject to UF-UV-activated carbon treatment. The effluent from the plant is drinking quality, and is split again into 2 streams, one which is subjected to RO-DI treatment in a further purification step and supplied as high grade industry water, while the other is supplied as portable water.

In residential sites, the RO-DI treatment step is negated, and just the portable and greywater supplies are present.

You still use the same water mains, and the differentiation only occurs near PoU.

Just my 2 cents.

Cheers,
Trout

that's do-able in the sg context if you skip the mains. and hdb blocks are great high density spots for distributed treatment. however, even with a last-mile split solution, the piping material for drinking water needs to be anti-corrosive to make it worthwhile. stainless steel and copper these days are atrociously expensive. the amount of double piping in homes and offices may actually outnumber the mains in terms of cubic feet. power requirements and maintenance issues (outside plant) are multiplied several fold, contributing to high opex or recurring expenses.

 

[eatshitndie]

<style></style>Allow me to think out of the box.Suppose,just suppose we deliver a reasonably 'cleaned' water to our homes which does not cost as much as the 'Newater".Which is good enough to flush toilets and bath.But not good enough to drink.But we add say further distillation and purification plant for drinking purpose on top of each and every HDB block which delivers water as good as "Evian"...(we could very well pump Evian if need be.)..Don't we have solution?

apart from the extra (high) cost of material for last-mile double piping at homes and offices which i have mentioned in an earlier post, there are maintenance and power requirement issues. for a distillation system to be installed on the roof of a hdb block or any large office building to support the drinking and cooking habits of a few hundred souls, you will need a huge boiling capacity, storage before distillation, storage after distillation and post carbon or coconut-based filters to remove any traces of violatile organic compounds (vocs) that are carried over from the boiling and condensation processes.

i'm not sure if a typical hdb block or office building can withstand the loading and space requirements of such. and you need extra watts of power to constantly run it. who's paying for the power and maintenance? most likely the tax-paying citizens. who will run it? most likely the gov. and this will add to the enlargement of government and the incompetency and inefficiency (and evil and tomfoolery) of letting the fox guard the henhouse. no wonder sinkies are perpetually indebted and screwed by their own gov.

 

[eatshitndie]

from the waterwise site...

THINK BEFORE YOU DRINK

If you think the water you are drinking is just H2O, think again! According to some studies, an astonishing 75,000 chemical compounds have been found in our water, yet the EPA has established enforceable safety standards for only 87. Many of these chemicals are potentially harmful and can spawn health problems. According to the Center for Disease Control in Atlanta, nearly one million people get sick from drinking contaminated water each year with about 1,000 cases tragically ending in death.

Often using outdated technology, many municipalities simply weren’t built to handle the influx of modern-day contaminants. A host of pollutants such as pesticides, herbicides, toxic waste from landfills, chemical and oil spills, acid rain and more find their way into our water supplies. Most often this water is treated with chlorine or chloramines to control bacterial growth which, according to some health experts, may also contribute to illness. Even if the water that leaves the treatment plants meets EPA minimum safety standards, health threats don’t stop there. The water may pass through unsafe water lines that recontaminate it on the way to your home. Examine your pipes and those of water distribution systems and you’ll find the insides of some of these pipes caked with mineral, biological and chemical deposits. In some cases the pipes themselves may leach copper and lead! Another threat lurking inside older water pipes is bio-film, composed of layers of bacteria that can harbor pathogens like E. coli. And don’t think well water is any safer because ground water pollutants may also seep into that source. Add to that the chlorine and other chemicals commonly used to treat well water, and you have drinking and cooking water that is chemically altered.

The sad truth is our water supply is compromised by harmful chemicals. EPA standards require water treatment plants to reduce certain contaminants. Annual reports issued by the EPA for 2002 indicate that there were 80,635 documented violations nationwide. When violations occur, “boil water” alerts are issued but, by then, you may have already consumed contaminated water.

You have to ask yourself the question, “Over the course of my life, how will these chemicals and trace pollutants affect my health and that of my family?” Consider what this means if, over the course of your life, you drink approximately 13,000 gallons of water. There could be undetected contaminants in each glass you drink having a cumulative affect on your health for the worse. That’s why it’s so important you make doubly sure the water you drink is 100% steam distilled.

 

[Leegimeremover]

that's do-able in the sg context if you skip the mains. and hdb blocks are great high density spots for distributed treatment. however, even with a last-mile split solution, the piping material for drinking water needs to be anti-corrosive to make it worthwhile. stainless steel and copper these days are atrociously expensive. the amount of double piping in homes and offices may actually outnumber the mains in terms of cubic feet. power requirements and maintenance issues (outside plant) are multiplied several fold, contributing to high opex or recurring expenses.

What kind of price differentials do you think we are looking at in terms of opex per cubic metre? For power requirements, any idea for individual HDB blocks? I was toying with decentralized power implementation before with poly-generation. As Trout has mentioned with the 40-foot container units, there are currently available with microturbines configuration with water filtration units. With the high oil price last year, it could have been possible to natural gas, but as we all know here, natural gas is pegged to oil prices. Go figure.

For you and Trout , what level of pressure do we require for the filtration. Because one snag I had but never had time to resolve was discuss heat to pressure conversion. Currently, they already have micro-filtration units that can run in homes. The problem is the brochure specs from Germany were vague and I have reservations, as I do with micro-trigeneration units in Japan that cost a bomb and can generate little based on the maximum input.

 

[Leegimeremover]

apart from the extra (high) cost of material for last-mile double piping at homes and offices which i have mentioned in an earlier post, there are maintenance and power requirement issues. for a distillation system to be installed on the roof of a hdb block or any large office building to support the drinking and cooking habits of a few hundred souls, you will need a huge boiling capacity, storage before distillation, storage after distillation and post carbon or coconut-based filters to remove any traces of violatile organic compounds (vocs) that are carried over from the boiling and condensation processes.

i'm not sure if a typical hdb block or office building can withstand the loading and space requirements of such. and you need extra watts of power to constantly run it. who's paying for the power and maintenance? most likely the tax-paying citizens. who will run it? most likely the gov. and this will add to the enlargement of government and the incompetency and inefficiency (and evil and tomfoolery) of letting the fox guard the henhouse. no wonder sinkies are perpetually indebted and screwed by their own gov.

Yup, precisely my concerns. The other way to get round loading on roofs is to store below ground of HDBs. I am seriously not sure what they run underground in Singapore and also the construction costs and complications of having underground or basement tanks. It will of course solve issues of power equipment installation.

 

[eatshitndie]

What kind of price differentials do you think we are looking at in terms of opex per cubic metre? For power requirements, any idea for individual HDB blocks? I was toying with decentralized power implementation before with poly-generation. As Trout has mentioned with the 40-foot container units, there are currently available with microturbines configuration with water filtration units. With the high oil price last year, it could have been possible to natural gas, but as we all know here, natural gas is pegged to oil prices. Go figure.

For you and Trout , what level of pressure do we require for the filtration. Because one snag I had but never had time to resolve was discuss heat to pressure conversion. Currently, they already have micro-filtration units that can run in homes. The problem is the brochure specs from Germany were vague and I have reservations, as I do with micro-trigeneration units in Japan that cost a bomb and can generate little based on the maximum input.

ah, the devil is in the details. thermodynamics keep us all busy. in distillation, heat to pressure conversion is key. and at what volume or capacity is optimum, with minimal energy cost and maximum output? at this moment, i'm thinking smaller units of boiling tanks ganged together, with some tanks emptying and cooling off while others are getting filled or boiling, will be more thermodynamically efficient than having a large tank doing all the work. instead of burning oil or gas, electrical heating may be safer and more deployable and serviceable in distributed systems.

the modular container concept is a good one. it's transportable, self-contained and easy to replicate, much like the server containers used by google to expand their data centers. they have the most energy efficient use of servers/data centers among all major carriers and providers. in distillation and/or ro filtration operations, heat can dissipate into the atmosphere. there's no need for a cooling system, except for the condensation process.

 

[Leegimeremover]

Most probably you didn't take public finance.

No wonder Singaporeans like you could tolerate PAP's govt-business model! Or rather, I would say PAP has successfully sold the idea of "corporate=government" so much so that people no longer understand what public goods are. Well, if by ROI, no roads would be built without ERP gantries... wait, is that why we have so many ERP gantries along the new express way?

As I have said, such model is NOT NEW and it existed elsewhere in the world. The nearest is Hong Kong. Do you really think you could be smarter than Hong Kongers in calculating ROI? Hong Kong is not even a country and face no potential adverse "foreign relationshop" that may jeopardize water supply but yet they find the need or rather, necessity to to build non-portable water system for toilet flushing!

It is ok if you just think that Singapore has the best model in having more costly New Water as raw water supplement. Yes, just RAW WATER SUPPLEMENT. That is of course, good ROI for you but definitely not for me.

Construction of alternative piping system could just start from new Town development. Old flats will bound to be redeveloped in time to come. It is a long term plan that could be implemented by stages. The key is whether you understand the need for alternative water conservation strategy at this stage.

Goh Meng Seng

I rest my case, Prof GMS of GMS Public Policy and Administration with no figures nor facts. I have no doubt that Hong Kong does offers interesting areas of reference for study. You fail to mention that Hong Kong water is subsidized in its 4 tier system, free for the first 12m3, at cost for the next 31m3, at unsubsidized cost for the next 19m3 and 40% additional tariff above that. Including using seawater, Hong Kong water usage is 219 litres per day per capita, higher than Oslo, Sydney and Singapore.Since you like HK as your model, show us the real cost of water savings. You like to make claims so prove your savings in water consumption, both price and quantity.
I give you a discount that 92 liters are seawater of the 219 litres. Show me your magic numbers, oh great Professor GMS.

 

[Leegimeremover]

>electrical heating may be safer and more deployable and serviceable in distributed systems.

True, but I would like to harvest waste heat for work, whether for pressure or cooling where possible. That is where the sensible Holy Grail should be. You know, to be really holy, one needs to do the energy pay back calculations as well. Darned the trade secret thingy, though one can calculate rough energy requirements and do the energy payback balance. So I prefer energy optimization from planning if possible and of course through distributed systems- the Lego stuff that boys love to play.

 

[Zombie]

As I have said, such model is NOT NEW and it existed elsewhere in the world. The nearest is Hong Kong. Do you really think you could be smarter than Hong Kongers in calculating ROI? Hong Kong is not even a country and face no potential adverse "foreign relationshop" that may jeopardize water supply but yet they find the need or rather, necessity to to build non-portable water system for toilet flushing!

HK? Flush toilet with seawater is FOC. Where got ROI?

HK started building the dual system in 50s. Who were running China and HK?

 

[Leegimeremover]

Oh, Prof GMS, since you still like to linger on the topic of water standards with regards to NEWater, check this site out. I forgot about it as I left this topic of research and comparison more than 1 year ago.
http://www.pub.gov.sg/newater/Quality/Pages/default.aspx

You may want to refute the statistics as being fake if you want. That is fine by me, just prove it. NEWater exceeds WHO standards, officially. So if NEWater does better than WHO standards which does not include the substances which may perhaps you some day, maybe not in this lifetime, NEWater constitutes as the better of worse water. Of course, you can choose to refute the statistical figures accuracy and the taste precision. Also, I left out one more component of subsidized water consumption in Hong Kong as your homework. It is very easy for you to find, Prof. GMS. Prof. GMS should have no problem handing up this homework and some calculations with flying colours.
Prof. GMS, you can do it. No need to hide behind the British or Hong Kongers. Stand up for yourself.

Oh, the Hong Kong Government has stated officially, from the perspective of water recycling, and sewage treatment reduction and disposal, sea water offers little benefit over the use of fresh water for flushing. Come on, Prof. GMS, show us what you can do.

 

[Trout]

apart from the extra (high) cost of material for last-mile double piping at homes and offices which i have mentioned in an earlier post, there are maintenance and power requirement issues. for a distillation system to be installed on the roof of a hdb block or any large office building to support the drinking and cooking habits of a few hundred souls, you will need a huge boiling capacity, storage before distillation, storage after distillation and post carbon or coconut-based filters to remove any traces of violatile organic compounds (vocs) that are carried over from the boiling and condensation processes.

Erm, I said nothing about distillation - just UF, and not very high pressure filtration at that. Will the amount of piping be doubled? Essentially in a hdb home, only the toilets cistern will be grey-water supplied. Still, that's a huge chuck of your daily water use.

O&M costs will definitely rise, but this creates employment for Singaporeans, I hope.

Cheers,
Trout