Underage prostitute case - shrewd, calculated defence move by Subhas Anandan

[Nice-Gook]

Shaw, the former executive director of the Singapore Environment Council, 41, has been charged under Section 376B of the Penal Code - an "absolute liability offence" under Singapore law, meaning the accused would be deemed to have committed the offence although there is no intent.

Read your post once more pal.

The Section 376B per se itself does not place the burden of proof on the accused.Perhaps other sub sections.Neither is the lawyer Mr Harpreet Singh Nehal, is talking about absolute liability offence.He is talking about the unfair lenghtiitude of punishment provided for.

Technically, unless you form a criminal intent, it is actually impossible to commit a crime. But in some courts the payoff for the crime might be considered motive enough .Which again leads to the intent.

So I made a mistake is not a defense but I took every reasonable precaution is.

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

First u made an ass of yrself viz the legal age requirement wrt to commercial sex...

Now u wish to educate me on jurisprudence?!...

My simple ans to u is go down to the sub courts next Weds to listen n learn fm Harpreet since u seem so keen on this topic...knowing his top notch level he shall prolly provide a v enlightening discourse on the material law at hand...

i guess u don't know what real law and justice is. If you are brought to court, the onus SHOULD ALWAYS BE ON YOUR ACCUSERS to prove you are guilty. Not the other way round where you have to prove you are innocent. That is why u are supposed to be presumed innocent until proven guilty. This kind of cases will never be prosecuted in the US, as there are severe lack of factual evidence. But this is kangaroo court singapore, where anything and everything happens. In the US and even western countries per se, there must be prove that the client knows the girl was underage, such prove to be in the form of sms, emails, etc., before they will prosecute.

I gave you the example of your car and your passenger getting into an accident. In these kinds of cases, the police must prove you were the driver, before they will prosecute you. Look at the lenghts they go to prove who was the driver in the Woffles and other prominent vehicle cases. Its not your responsibility to prove u were not driving the car and is therefore innocent. WHY NOW IN UNDERAGE SEX CASES, THE BURDEN OF PROOF IS NOW ON YOU AND NOT THE POLICE? That is why the law is stupid. Produce 80 condoms with the semen of each of the 80 accused or provide video to show they all fucked the girl, otherwise, u only have circumstantial evidence. But like i said before, singapore judges have never let the lack of concrete evidence stand int he way of the verdict they want to register. Uniquely singapore.

 

[aurvandil]

We are in for quite a show. HS has hired himself a high powered team and got an early date. you obviously don't do such things if you intend to PG.
He is essentially making sure that his is the first case and someone like Subhas doesn't set the precedent.

First u made an ass of yrself viz the legal age requirement wrt to commercial sex...

Now u wish to educate me on jurisprudence?!...

My simple ans to u is go down to the sub courts next Weds to listen n learn fm Harpreet since u seem so keen on this topic...knowing his top notch level he shall prolly provide a v enlightening discourse on the material law at hand...

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

The way i c it...Howie has engaged one of the best legal minds in ptve practice at the mo...n just gg by tdy's press reports it is obvious tat Hapreet is taking a totally different novel approach to try n obtain the best possible outcome for his clt Howie under v difficult circumstances...Harpreet shall prolly advise Howie to take this case all the way on appeal to test the law...particularly on the sentencing issue if he is unhappy wif the initial sentence assuming Howie PGs r is convicted...in this regard i hv sympathy for the ex principal becuz it may well be his bad luck tat he PG so early in this 'game'...

Compare Harpreet's approach to Subhas n the rest n u can c the difference in std...nothing special nor smart fm Subhas...just the usual blunt hammer approach...may frighten the under aged pros but she will still hv to testify if any of the cases go to trial as she will be subpoenaed by chambers, also she has already made all her police statements as well...there is no running away for any of the dramatis personae in this sad sorry tale...

to me best bet for all remaining defendants is to drag the case out until Howie's case has been finally resolved one way r another...

For Howard to receive a sentence lesser than the ex principal is a travesty of the law. Howard will spend a lot of money but the outcome will be the same. This is even more so after the Woffles debacle. I am doubtful that the nazi's will allow to tempt fate so soon after. As for Subhas he is playing his cards so that the girl may be afraid or shy to appear in court as a witness. Without a witness, the prosecutor's case may be quite weak. However if the girl is willing to testify and the court agrees to hide her identity then Subhas will have no recourse but advise his clients to accept the charges. It is a smart move by Subhas. It is certain that his clients will not want their experience and details of what they did with the underaged girl to be made public.

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

Exactly!....

the girl will be issued with a subpoena..if she does not attend or turns hostile..Prosecution can still proceed..if she fail to attend court an arrest warrant will be issued to her..if she refuse to answer questions..as stated earlier Prosecution will declare her hostile witness...please2 this is all poker face wayang by Subhas who needs to show clients he is working...
guys..court is not like what u see in movies or THE PUPIL..

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

Let's see how things pan out wif Hapreet's approach in Howie's case first...

To be fair,any law that is first framed lose the spirit of which it was first framed over the years.Besides,the limitations of words cannot capture all situations and circumstances each case warrants separately in future.

Let's take this penal code Section 376B.It basically protects minors sexually abused.However,it cannot capture or differentiate say a 12 yr old girl with still her babyish features and a 17 yr old with her voluptuous curves.

Hence the law is framed such to put the burden of proof on the accused as it deemed minors as special case who needs special protection.Otherwise everybody charged can get away with 'no intent' to screw a minor girlie.

In short,the law is in the same spirit as ignorance of law is not an excuse.

But all these with the presumptions that the sitting judge has his discretionary powers.Meaning a sitting judge can see with his open eye that the girl in this particular case is more professional than most prostitute and being 17 yrs is just technical.

And hence can sentence the accused just for 1 day jail term with $1 fine.That is what Section 376B allows.

But since our kangaroo courts under the Lee regime has taken away the discretionary powers from the judges...than the judge merely becomes a puppet that rubber stamp for Lee whims and fancies ---which makes our courts of law nothing more than circus.

 

[GoldenDragon]

The way i c it...Howie has engaged one of the best legal minds in ptve practice at the mo...n just gg by tdy's press reports it is obvious tat Hapreet is taking a totally different novel approach to try n obtain the best possible outcome for his clt Howie under v difficult circumstances...Harpreet shall prolly advise Howie to take this case all the way on appeal to test the law...particularly on the sentencing issue if he is unhappy wif the initial sentence assuming Howie PGs r is convicted...in this regard i hv sympathy for the ex principal becuz it may well be his bad luck tat he PG so early in this 'game'...

Compare Harpreet's approach to Subhas n the rest n u can c the difference in std...nothing special nor smart fm Subhas...just the usual blunt hammer approach...may frighten the under aged pros but she will still hv to testify if any of the cases go to trial as she will be subpoenaed by chambers, also she has already made all her police statements as well...there is no running away for any of the dramatis personae in this sad sorry tale...

to me best bet for all remaining defendants is to drag the case out until Howie's case has been finally resolved one way r another...

Agree with you, especially your last para. Let HS's lawyers explore and exhaust ALL possibilites since $$$ is not a problem.

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

There is nothing to read again pal...it is wat it is...a strict/absolute liability offence...n tat is the pt i was making in my earlier posts abv...

Read your post once more pal.

The Section 376B per se itself does not place the burden of proof on the accused.Perhaps other sub sections.Neither is the lawyer Mr Harpreet Singh Nehal, is talking about absolute liability offence.He is talking about the unfair lenghtiitude of punishment provided for.

Technically, unless you form a criminal intent, it is actually impossible to commit a crime. But in some courts the payoff for the crime might be considered motive enough .Which again leads to the intent.

So I made a mistake is not a defense but I took every reasonable precaution is.

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

The problem now is that Dr Wu's case has ignited a bomb and complicates matters here. Public Perception has been formed in the minds of Singaporeans that there are two sets of law: the rich and powerful will get away from the law while the lesser ones get punished. If Howard and the rest of those wealthy ones get away with this case, this perception will be further entrenched. In fact, with regards to this case, there were reports of more "high level" people were implicated and supposed to be charged as the third batch but nothing happens so far. The speculations and reports on local newspapers have made public perception entrenched that someone very rich and powerfully connected have been let off.

If Howard can get off the hook this time round, public confidence on the rule of law will be badly shaken, bearing in mind that there were precedence whereby one old bugger was jailed for patronizing "under age" prostitute OUTSIDE Singapore. But if Howard has fought the legal battle right and challenging the very fundamentals of this law, then there is no reason for him to lose the case. However, there will be a gap between technicality of the law vs public perceptions.

It is going to be a very tricky situation right now.

Goh Meng Seng

The way i c it...Howie has engaged one of the best legal minds in ptve practice at the mo...n just gg by tdy's press reports it is obvious tat Hapreet is taking a totally different novel approach to try n obtain the best possible outcome for his clt Howie under v difficult circumstances...Harpreet shall prolly advise Howie to take this case all the way on appeal to test the law...particularly on the sentencing issue if he is unhappy wif the initial sentence assuming Howie PGs r is convicted...in this regard i hv sympathy for the ex principal becuz it may well be his bad luck tat he PG so early in this 'game'...

Compare Harpreet's approach to Subhas n the rest n u can c the difference in std...nothing special nor smart fm Subhas...just the usual blunt hammer approach...may frighten the under aged pros but she will still hv to testify if any of the cases go to trial as she will be subpoenaed by chambers, also she has already made all her police statements as well...there is no running away for any of the dramatis personae in this sad sorry tale...

to me best bet for all remaining defendants is to drag the case out until Howie's case has been finally resolved one way r another...

 

[aurvandil]

Last week I remember the msm crowing how there were going to be more people who are going to PG. So far no news. Looks like all pulling back and waiting for HS.

Agree with you, especially your last para. Let HS's lawyers explore and exhaust ALL possibilites since $$$ is not a problem.

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

It shall not be tricky in this case so long as there is clear transparency n sound logical reasoning in any judgment made, one way r another...

The problem now is that Dr Wu's case has ignited a bomb and complicates matters here. Public Perception has been formed in the minds of Singaporeans that there are two sets of law: the rich and powerful will get away from the law while the lesser ones get punished. If Howard and the rest of those wealthy ones get away with this case, this perception will be further entrenched. In fact, with regards to this case, there were reports of more "high level" people were implicated and supposed to be charged as the third batch but nothing happens so far. The speculations and reports on local newspapers have made public perception entrenched that someone very rich and powerfully connected have been let off.

If Howard can get off the hook this time round, public confidence on the rule of law will be badly shaken, bearing in mind that there were precedence whereby one old bugger was jailed for patronizing "under age" prostitute OUTSIDE Singapore. But if Howard has fought the legal battle right and challenging the very fundamentals of this law, then there is no reason for him to lose the case. However, there will be a gap between technicality of the law vs public perceptions.

It is going to be a very tricky situation right now.

Goh Meng Seng

 

[aurvandil]

Public Perception has been formed in the minds of Singaporeans that there are two sets of law: the rich and powerful will get away from the law while the lesser ones get punished.

I remember reading that there are actually 4 sets of laws -

1) Laws for the rich, connected and those who are related.
2) Laws for foreigners whose countries Singapore does not want to offend.
3) Laws for the average Singaporean
4) Laws for members of the Singapore Opposition.

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

Perception is a powerful thing.

Goh Meng Seng

I remember reading that there are actually 4 sets of laws -

1) Laws for the rich, connected and those who are related.
2) Laws for foreigners whose countries Singapore does not want to offend.
3) Laws for the average Singaporean
4) Laws for members of the Singapore Opposition.

 

[Papsmearer]

I remember reading that there are actually 4 sets of laws -

1) Laws for the rich, connected and those who are related.
2) Laws for foreigners whose countries Singapore does not want to offend.
3) Laws for the average Singaporean
4) Laws for members of the Singapore Opposition.

Yes, u are right. This is very true in singapore. for 4) I would amend to read "Laws for members of the Singapore Opposition and people who have pissed off Kuan Yew or some connected family".

 

[Papsmearer]

How come the defendant hired WongPartners? Didn't this use to be khattar wong? What happened to Satpal? I know he left and retired from practice long ago and become big time businessman, but did I miss some inside story?

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

Different law firm...wongpartnership founded by current law soc president wong meng meng sc...hence the wong identity...khattarwong founded by satpal khattar n dr david wong...both long since retired fm tat firm...

How come the defendant hired WongPartners? Didn't this use to be khattar wong? What happened to Satpal? I know he left and retired from practice long ago and become big time businessman, but did I miss some inside story?

 

[Papsmearer]

Different law firm...wongpartnership founded by current law soc president wong meng meng sc...hence the wong identity...khattarwong founded by satpal khattar n dr david wong...both long since retired fm tat firm...

OIC, thanks for the clarification. But don't they both still own controlling shares in the law firm?

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

Not once they hv retired fm the partnership...generally speaking remaining partners wld hv to buy the retiring partners shares subject to the partnership agreement

OIC, thanks for the clarification. But don't they both still own controlling shares in the law firm?

 

[Jumong]

The way i c it...Howie has engaged one of the best legal minds in ptve practice at the mo...n just gg by tdy's press reports it is obvious tat Hapreet is taking a totally different novel approach to try n obtain the best possible outcome for his clt Howie under v difficult circumstances...Harpreet shall prolly advise Howie to take this case all the way on appeal to test the law...particularly on the sentencing issue if he is unhappy wif the initial sentence assuming Howie PGs r is convicted...in this regard i hv sympathy for the ex principal becuz it may well be his bad luck tat he PG so early in this 'game'...

Looks like "the best legal minds" approach is to plead guilty. He reminds me of some taxi drivers in Bangkok. Once they know you are a newbie in Bangkok, they will take a long detour only to chalk up more distance and fare.