The effectiveness of NSmen System

[Ramseth]

Basically, if Captain Goh choke the supply lines of meat and vegetables from Australia, Indonesia and Malaysia, Singaporeans eat air and get air stroke. Very clever, Captain Goh. I wonder why L.K.Y. still hasn't issued an warrant for your arrest.

 

[Zombie]

But they are not transferred to MR (Main Reserves).

iirc tfr to mr does not mean they cannot call u back, though usually they won't

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

iirc tfr to mr does not mean they cannot call u back, though usually they won't

Yup, you are right. Technically speaking, or legally speaking, they could still call them up.

Goh Meng Seng

 

[johnny333]

Whether or not Singapore "actively participates" in any US-Sino conflicts, we will be hit on first strike.

Was watching a documentary about WW2 and Japanese spies had infiltrated Spore as barbers. Many of these barbers were in fact colonels in the Jap army.

How many mei mei's in Geylang are actually spies


With all those PRCs in Spore if China decides to takeover Spore they already have enough PRC troops in Spore to do that.

 

[Ramseth]

Basically, the NS system is very effective. These big fat rich OCS NSmen officers should be kept called up till 50, maybe 60 if still certified fit.

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

Basically, the NS system is very effective. These big fat rich OCS NSmen officers should be kept called up till 50, maybe 60 if still certified fit.

Wow, you no good heart. Help your brother to siam but now want us to suffer!

Goh Meng Seng

 

[ps07857]

With the effectiveness of the NS and the white horse system....

http://juzhansen.livejournal.com/57872.html?thread=57616#t57616


I am sure we are doing fine. Like the old saying goes.... If it ain't broken, don't fix it. There is no need to reinvent the wheel....

 

[wizard]

<<<With the effectiveness of the NS and the white horse system....>>>

It was raised in parliment. The white horse scheme is suppose to prevent sons of ministers to have better treatment.

<<Pulau tekong grow grapes and has penguins swiming around the island.>>

 

[Papsmearer]

I've seen the training materials for both the US Army's CQC and SAF's FIBUA and quite frankly there isn't much difference.

However, it is noted that CQC emphasizes possible hostages/civilians intermingled with the enemy while most FIBUA I've came across seem to assume a totally hostile environment without the possibilities of a neutral party.

BTW, most CQC operators are equipped with a sidearm and a carbine. The SAR21 or M16/AR15 are going to have problems in such an environment especially when the latter is famous for jamming.

Don`t know what the fuck u are talking about, I have fired the entire family of M16s, including CAR-15, AR-15, M-16, and M4, and never had a jam problem. By the way, a small lenght weapon like the SAR-21 is probably the best suited for FIBUA, unless the Sterling is available.

The reason that the CQC and FIBUA is the same in both armies, and indeed in most armies, is that there are only so many ways u can fight in a build up arae. Its not rocket science, and the principals of FIBUA have remained largely unchanged since WW2.

The US FIBUA doctrine is based on their experience where a civilian population is likely to be mixed in with the combatants. So, when they clear a town like Fallujah, they are careful of collateral damage, because it results in negative press for them. The SAF FIBUA is adopted from the Israeli army, where everyone is assumed to be hostile when they break a door down and enter the house. Its modified with some S`porean features like firing single shots to save ammo. Fuck that shit, I go in FULL AUTO.

 

[Yoshitei]

Don`t know what the fuck u are talking about, I have fired the entire family of M16s, including CAR-15, AR-15, M-16, and M4, and never had a jam problem. By the way, a small lenght weapon like the SAR-21 is probably the best suited for FIBUA, unless the Sterling is available.

M16s tend to jam when the conditions are less then perfect. In a range, when firing one or two magazines, they rarely jam unless your magazine's springs are faulty but in the field, with a bit of rain and sand, it jams way too easy. It's a known and accepted issue, mostly attributed to the upper receiver.

Needless to say, SAF's M16s and AR-15s jams easily due to poor maintenance and worn magazine springs. Rarely would you find an SAF magazine loaded full but still the gun jams.

Personally, I would prefer the HK 416 or an M4 with a HK upper receiver. HK jams lesser the the bolt assembly can be held in your hand even after you emptied a 30-round clip on auto. Besides, the M16 and SAR-21's barrels are just too long for real CQC or FIBUA. The 416 has a 10 inch barrel while the M4 have a 14 inch barrel. Both SAR-21 and M16 have 20 inch barrels. For me, the shorter the better.

Personally, Sterlings are only good if you can't shoot for nuts. My experience with them - they're fun, not not something I want as my primary. Do they still heat up easily?

Its modified with some S`porean features like firing single shots to save ammo. Fuck that shit, I go in FULL AUTO.

An experienced operator would usually prefer to go either semi or burst. Auto is just a waste of ammunition plus you put friendlies and neutrals at risk.

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

I personally prefer SAR21 to M16.

There is a trade off for shorter barrel and for a conventional army that goes on all environment warfare, a short barrel gun is not ideal. Shorter barrel will tend to compromise for longer range engagement. Unless we are talking about Fibua fighting all the way, SAR 21 is still the best of both worlds.

In terms of stability, M16 tends to jam a lot in comparison to SAR 21. I have not tried out triggering auto on both weapons but it seems that the bolt design for SAR 21 is much better than M16.

Goh Meng Seng

M16s tend to jam when the conditions are less then perfect. In a range, when firing one or two magazines, they rarely jam unless your magazine's springs are faulty but in the field, with a bit of rain and sand, it jams way too easy. It's a known and accepted issue, mostly attributed to the upper receiver.

Needless to say, SAF's M16s and AR-15s jams easily due to poor maintenance and worn magazine springs. Rarely would you find an SAF magazine loaded full but still the gun jams.

Personally, I would prefer the HK 416 or an M4 with a HK upper receiver. HK jams lesser the the bolt assembly can be held in your hand even after you emptied a 30-round clip on auto. Besides, the M16 and SAR-21's barrels are just too long for real CQC or FIBUA. The 416 has a 10 inch barrel while the M4 have a 14 inch barrel. Both SAR-21 and M16 have 20 inch barrels. For me, the shorter the better.

Personally, Sterlings are only good if you can't shoot for nuts. My experience with them - they're fun, not not something I want as my primary. Do they still heat up easily?



An experienced operator would usually prefer to go either semi or burst. Auto is just a waste of ammunition plus you put friendlies and neutrals at risk.

 

[TeeKee]

Personally, I would prefer the HK 416 or an M4 with a HK upper receiver. HK jams lesser the the bolt assembly can be held in your hand even after you emptied a 30-round clip on auto. Besides, the M16 and SAR-21's barrels are just too long for real CQC or FIBUA. The 416 has a 10 inch barrel while the M4 have a 14 inch barrel. Both SAR-21 and M16 have 20 inch barrels. For me, the shorter the better.

what wants a HK416/M4? Bloody Cheap....

http://www.sheridanarms.com/store/index.php?cPath=33 they are selling a hk416 for $2300
http://www.mtm-mfg.com/MTM_title2-2.html they are selling a m4 for $1500

 

[Yoshitei]

I personally prefer SAR21 to M16.

There is a trade off for shorter barrel and for a conventional army that goes on all environment warfare, a short barrel gun is not ideal. Shorter barrel will tend to compromise for longer range engagement. Unless we are talking about Fibua fighting all the way, SAR 21 is still the best of both worlds.

In terms of stability, M16 tends to jam a lot in comparison to SAR 21. I have not tried out triggering auto on both weapons but it seems that the bolt design for SAR 21 is much better than M16.

Goh Meng Seng

Most of the engagements I've had so far are in build up environments where a HK 416 with an EOTech should be good enough. It's not easy getting in and out of a car with too long a barrel and I'm prepared to accept a trade off. Besides, there's usually a PSG1 in the trunk. 5.56mm NATO rounds aren't too stable in flight to make a bull's eye for anything distant even with match grade ammunition. If I'm operating in an open area, a HK417 would be preferred.

As for the SAF's SAR21, I'm sure it's a matter of time before it starts jamming.

 

[Yoshitei]

what wants a HK416/M4? Bloody Cheap....

http://www.sheridanarms.com/store/index.php?cPath=33 they are selling a hk416 for $2300
http://www.mtm-mfg.com/MTM_title2-2.html they are selling a m4 for $1500

Not everyone can afford the difference.

Besides, for most operators with stipends, it makes senses to use your standard issue lower receiver instead of purchasing a brand new rifle.

 

[Papsmearer]

M16s tend to jam when the conditions are less then perfect. In a range, when firing one or two magazines, they rarely jam unless your magazine's springs are faulty but in the field, with a bit of rain and sand, it jams way too easy. It's a known and accepted issue, mostly attributed to the upper receiver.

Needless to say, SAF's M16s and AR-15s jams easily due to poor maintenance and worn magazine springs. Rarely would you find an SAF magazine loaded full but still the gun jams.

Personally, I would prefer the HK 416 or an M4 with a HK upper receiver. HK jams lesser the the bolt assembly can be held in your hand even after you emptied a 30-round clip on auto. Besides, the M16 and SAR-21's barrels are just too long for real CQC or FIBUA. The 416 has a 10 inch barrel while the M4 have a 14 inch barrel. Both SAR-21 and M16 have 20 inch barrels. For me, the shorter the better.

Personally, Sterlings are only good if you can't shoot for nuts. My experience with them - they're fun, not not something I want as my primary. Do they still heat up easily?



An experienced operator would usually prefer to go either semi or burst. Auto is just a waste of ammunition plus you put friendlies and neutrals at risk.

Have you fired the HK 416? Do you know what you are talking about? U talk like you have fired hundreds of rounds from a HK 416. If you want the most reliable weapon out there, than hands down its the AK. Like I said, I have fired hundreds of rounds, maybe even thousands from the M16 family. And no problem. I have had m&d and sand in my mags, and still fired the M16 no problem. Mag problems are not attributable to problems with the upper receiver group. If the mag springs are bad, than its bad. Nothing to do with any upper receiver. Do you even know what is an upper receiver? If you know anything about FIBUA, you will know that barrel lenght has nothing to with FIBUA. Its the lenght of the whole weapon, not the barrel alone. U can have a short barrel, but if the rest of the weapon is long, than its useless. The SAR-21 is a bullpup design, that makes it short, much shorter than most other weapons out there and therefore, more maneuvrable in a building. The standard HK 416 is 941mm with the stock collapsed, whereas, the SAR-21 is 805mm only. The shortest SAR-21 you can get is 640mm, and the shortest HK416 u can get 701mm. Go back to your armchair schoolboy.

 

[Papsmearer]

Dear Scroobal,

I know it is damn difficult for people to stand back and take a second look at the assumptions or rather, the presumptions of National Security Threats that has been deeply rooted for past decades.

We are just too used to the argument that we are a Chinese based city state surrounded by Muslim countries and thus the threat of war or security risk is real and thus, National Service is a must ..etc etc.

Or that we are a small country and that is why we need everyone to be in the army etc etc.

If you think that there are nobody interested in joining the army, why would you presume that when the war comes, there would be anyone interested to go to the war front? Even so with a conscripted army?

War is fought not by merely numbers anymore. The US successful military campaign in Iraq has demonstrated that. But ironically, US military campaign also shows that War could not be won in the long term by simply beating enormous army by equipment superiority. No one should have the fantasy that we could ever win a war even if we beat our enemies with numbers and superior equipment. The war is merely a deterrence of further hardship. There is no way Singapore could conquer anyone even if it wins the initial battles. Wars are no longer fought in the conventional ways anymore. Iraq and Afghanistan have shown that clearly to us.

If we ever go to war, there are only two possibilities. It is for buying time to have a negotiated peace. Anyone that think we could win anything would be hallucinating at best. The second possibility is fighting an Asian super power that aimed to destroy our role as the logistic base for the American Navy. Could we win that war or even the initial battle? No sir.

The cost of maintaining this huge conscript army is hardly justifiable for such limited use. Put it this way, even for reservist training, the "drop out rate" is unimaginably high, so do you think you will get more than 50% of the people going to the battle front as conscripts when the button is pressed?

I am just being realistic in assessment. Most probably if my plan is adopted, the same number in Volunteer Corp would be the same number of people that would stay and fight when the button is pressed with the present system. People who are mindful, responsible and upright enough to join the Volunteer Corp are the ones who the Nation could really depend on during war time. There might be some others in the Paramilitary regiment that would stay on to fight depending on the nature of the war and whether we are standing on a moral high ground but with that, it is then a REAL gauge on how effective our National education is with regards to Patriotism.

If we cannot get enough people to form 2 Divisions of regular professional army, then we are not going to be successful in maintaining proficiency with the conscript army anyway. I believe, with the present strength we have in the army as regulars now, we could well have enough people to form up two divisions of fighting force.

Goh Meng Seng

Goh, u are way off base here. The whole of S'pore can be effectively defended with a professional full time army of no more than 50,000, of which 10,000 can be Gurkha mercenaries. Our entire defence budget should no more than 25% of what it is today, or no more than say $500 million to $700milion. We do not need a lot of the useless toy crap that we have now. The subs and stealth frigates can go. The CH-47s, KC-135s, and the F-15Gs can go. That's a savings of $1 billion a year right there.

So, how do we defend S'pore? Easy. For an initial outlay of USD$500 million, we buy a intermediate range ballistic missiles (Scuds) from the Russians, Chinese, or whoever will sell them to us. Many of these will have multiple warheads. More than half will be mobile, and will roam the streets of S'pore at night, or hide in warehouses, hangars, etc. The rest will be fixed in hardened silos. The missiles will be tipped with chemical, biological and maybe even nuclear warheads. Whether we actually have these warheads or not, it does not matter. We will make it known that we are buying them, or have possession of them. Lots of countries will be more than happy to sell you the chemical and biological warheads, the nukes are more difficult.

The S'pore Scuds will have the range to reach the capitals of all the ASEAN countries nearest to us, ie KL, Jakarta, Bangkok, etc. An enemy surprise attack will not be able to take out all the missiles. Our retaliation will make their major cities inhabitable. The cost of a first strike on us will be so costly to them. U need no more than 1000 men to operate this missile system. This deterrent strategy is a true and tried strategy and it worked during the cold war. The Isrealis, Indians, Pakis, China, etc use this too.

Will the PAP do it? No, they are getting too much kickbacks from all these expensive weapons they are buying.

 

[Papsmearer]

Thank god he is not the GM of the MNC.

War is a numbers and technology game. You can't get the numbers running a volunteer army. The fact that NS was reduced from 2.5 to 2 in view of the falling birth rate is telling. SAF acts as a deterrent force outnumbering the Malaysians by many fold.

The reason the GM storeman has to attend and we are willing to pay his salary for 3 weeks is to ensure that its an obligation that all people undertake. Unless he comes out with another solution such as paying the employer a storeman's vocation wage, its not going anywhere.

So far it is not a good article. One worries when an Officer who is 39 yrs of age and had undergo years of military training does not know the basis of NS, why a voluntary army won't do and the mechanics of singapore security situation. He also assumed that Singaporeans will join the army in numbers. Movinga way from a military vocation is a trend for the last 50 years all over the world except in the african nations where decent board and lodging is ahead of a country's national mean.

The issue at hand is budget given to the SAF and if it could be better used for nation building with a serious debate in parliament. For instance, even old man felt that submarines serve no strategic or tactical purpose and considered them toys.

U don't get the real reason, and this officer has been less than open. Firstly, a few clues. He mentions Exercise Wallaby. That means that he is an armour officer. In a good year, the School of Armour graduates no more than 18 officers. That's even less than other units like the elite Commandoes. In my batch, there were only 12 of us. Currently, of the 12, only 3 are reporting for reservist training. The rest have been excused in some way or other due to studies overseas, migration, medical condition, etc. There is such a shortage of armour officer and armour crew in general that it makes the ones in the system serve as long as possible. Things will get even worse in the future when they switch completely from AMX-13 (3 man crew) to Leo 2 (4 man crew). Unlike many vocations, if you put on too much weight, you will not be able to use the tank escape hatch, which means you will out of the tank crew. Its little things like this that makes armour one of the most used and forced to be the longest serving.

By the way, read my reply to Goh with regards to deterrent. Outnumberring the Malaysians to deter them is a dumb strategy, We will never outnumber them. They can send people to the front with one day worth iof weapons training. Better to use to an IRBM missile umbrella over the island.

 

[Papsmearer]

Dear Makapa,

Citizens First, yes, but I am not ready to go for total abolishment of NS yet.

A small country is difficult to amass big armies in a short frame of time to defend itself when there is war eminent. If you read my article carefully, I did not assert that we could abolish NS altogether. I am merely proposing a middle path solution to balance up the cost and benefits of maintain a huge conscript army during peace time.

I believe a basic military training of 1.5 yr to 2 yr in the foundation years is still a necessary. But what goes there after will have to be modified from the present system. That is what I am asking for.

Goh Meng Seng

If you need basic training, 3 months is more than enough, not 1.5 to 2 years. The German's basic training was only 3 months even at the peak of the Cold war.

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

Err....This article is written by me who is not an Armour officer.

Ex Wallaby is no longer an exercise specially designed for the Armour battalions. I cannot tell you which unit I belong to because it is supposed to be classified. Else they will definitely use this "leak" as the excuse to go after my arse.

Goh Meng Seng

U don't get the real reason, and this officer has been less than open. Firstly, a few clues. He mentions Exercise Wallaby. That means that he is an armour officer. In a good year, the School of Armour graduates no more than 18 officers. That's even less than other units like the elite Commandoes. In my batch, there were only 12 of us. Currently, of the 12, only 3 are reporting for reservist training. The rest have been excused in some way or other due to studies overseas, migration, medical condition, etc. There is such a shortage of armour officer and armour crew in general that it makes the ones in the system serve as long as possible. Things will get even worse in the future when they switch completely from AMX-13 (3 man crew) to Leo 2 (4 man crew). Unlike many vocations, if you put on too much weight, you will not be able to use the tank escape hatch, which means you will out of the tank crew. Its little things like this that makes armour one of the most used and forced to be the longest serving.

By the way, read my reply to Goh with regards to deterrent. Outnumberring the Malaysians to deter them is a dumb strategy, We will never outnumber them. They can send people to the front with one day worth iof weapons training. Better to use to an IRBM missile umbrella over the island.

 

[Yoshitei]

Have you fired the HK 416? Do you know what you are talking about? U talk like you have fired hundreds of rounds from a HK 416. If you want the most reliable weapon out there, than hands down its the AK. Like I said, I have fired hundreds of rounds, maybe even thousands from the M16 family. And no problem. I have had m&d and sand in my mags, and still fired the M16 no problem.

I don't count the number of rounds I've fired on HK's range of weapons, but I would like to think I've enough experiences with them, and I stand firm on my preferences and comments on them.

As for the AK, I've used it a couple of times, simple and reliable but didn't like it much, sure there are people who swear by it, but not me. And this would be because [FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]optics require special adapters[/FONT][/FONT] and I don't like the safety [FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]mechanism.[/FONT][/FONT]

M16s are great out of the box and in a range, most civilian owners would not have any issues with them, especially for the later versions.

However, my experience with them in the field are less then desirable. Mostly due to issues with feeding, failure to extract, rim-sheer and choking of the gas tube but this could be due partly to the environments where I was deployed and the rounds I was getting for them.

Mag problems are not attributable to problems with the upper receiver group. If the mag springs are bad, than its bad. Nothing to do with any upper receiver. Do you even know what is an upper receiver?

It would be interesting to think that mag springs play no part in feeding the weapon. Weak springs could cause a jam.

If you know anything about FIBUA, you will know that barrel lenght has nothing to with FIBUA. Its the lenght of the whole weapon, not the barrel alone. U can have a short barrel, but if the rest of the weapon is long, than its useless. The SAR-21 is a bullpup design, that makes it short, much shorter than most other weapons out there and therefore, more maneuvrable in a building. The standard HK 416 is 941mm with the stock collapsed, whereas, the SAR-21 is 805mm only. The shortest SAR-21 you can get is 640mm, and the shortest HK416 u can get 701mm. Go back to your armchair schoolboy.

If barrel length has nothing to do with FIBUA, try bringing a Barrett into a building next time. However, you're right to say the length of the whole weapon plays a part.

I don't have the measurements of all 3 weapons at the back of my head and my experiences with the SAR-21 has been limited to the range. Didn't know the had a 640mm version, didn't see it back then and certainly didn't have the chance to use it.

But having said that, there is only that much of length you can trim from your butt stock before the weapon starts to feel funny in your hands. Ultimately, there is a length on your butt stock you need - or are used to - which helps you operate your weapon with greater efficiency and accuracy.

I'm tall with long arms, and would prefer my butt stock fully extended mostly, hence a shorter barrel is my option and preference.