Suicide - An Honour?

[scroobal]

I came across this interesting post on suicide and thought it might be worth some discussion. All along I thought suicide was a way out for many reasons but this is second time that someone suggested it as an honour and to clear one's name. The first time I heard it was when old man suggested the same when cabinet minister Teh Cheng Wan took his own life and he was called an "honourable mandarin"

http://www.singsupplies.com/showpost.php?p=242240&postcount=41

24-05-2009, 09:18 PM
littlefish
Alfrescian Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 140
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Re: Breaking News Korean Ex-President Roh Jumped Mountain Suicided!

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Porfirio Rubirosa
don't come back with all this korean/jap/karate gee/sappuku BS ok...there is NO "honour" in taking the COWARD's way out by taking one's own life...you do the crime/wrong you pay for it by being properly ACCOUNTABLE and RESPONSIBLE...it is as simple as that...do not run away and leave it to the living...what you profess is warped twisted oriental cultural logic at best...

Really? Committing suicide when there is no other way to clear your name is cowardice? Only cowards who dare not take the ultimate responsibility would call others cowardly for committing suicide when they are at their wits' end. I am not talking about committing suicide because of economic woes or other difficulties. I am talking about committing suicide to take responsibility for bringing dishonour to himself, his family, his country, etc. He paid for whatever wrongdoing with his life and you say that is not being accountable and responsible. In this case, he did not cause hardship to others by ending his life. He did it to show that he is willing to pay the ultimate price and the fault is his alone.

Values like courage, honour and integrity are universally recognised and admired throughout the world, regardless of the culture. Check out this link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forty-seven_Ronin.

Before you so readily criticise someone for taking the easy way out by committing suicide, I would like to see you try doing that. I guess people like you will run away from the enemy when you are the last man standing because you will consider charging at the enemy as suicide and taking the easy way out.

 

[captainxerox]

ask al qaeda sucide bombers. they say it is honour privilege duty.

 

[littlefish]

Just to clarify something. For Roh's suicide, I do not consider it particularly honourable. Neither will I call someone who did that a coward. In this case, the redemption lies in Roh willing to pay such a heavy price to clear his name. He may not be a hero but to condemn him as a coward is just not right and cowardly behaviour. Much depends on whether he did that to clear his name or to escape more severe punishment. In his case, his punishment, if he is found guilty, cannot be worse than the fate he chose for himself (corrupt politicians are a dime a dozen, some do not even know they are corrupt). That is the reason for my post. By the same token, I will never call Teh a coward, corrupt maybe but not a coward.

For someone to take that step, he must be either extremely desperate or he holds himself to a very high standard. For me, the honour comes from pursuing a course of action that one truly believes in even if the end result will lead to death (not as in committing the act of suicide by itself). Of course, the action itself needs to be honourable in nature.

 

[scroobal]

I think people tend to mix up things in this space. Its like the Japanese Kamikaze pilot who cause maximum damage by using themselves as weapons of war, usually in times of desperation. Its a noble or considered noble by many.

In the case of Roh, Teh, these chaps were facing or going to face criminal charges. If they were remorseful, they would have paid back every single cent that was gained wrongfully. Both Roh and Teh did not pay back a cent. As far as I know the government did not seek any return of illgotten gains either. Clearly no remorse has been shown.

ask al qaeda sucide bombers. they say it is honour privilege duty.

 

[scroobal]

He did not clear his name. No money was returned and his kids actually acquired property in the US with the money. The note he wrote expressed the grief he caused his family.

If he had an ounce of honour, he would have returned the money. If he wanted to clear his name on the basis that the allegation was false, then it would have been right to fight the charges in court.

If Teh is not a coward, he is neither a hero nor honourable. Nor was he attempting to clear his name. Again not a penny was returned and the family went overseas for period of time to live off the proceeds and to avoid the shame. More an expression of guilt Generally people kill themselves when they do not want to face the consequences. An act that resembles cowardice - unable to face the music or fear facing the music.

Society tends to accept suicide as closure when it involves criminals not because he did the ultimate act but more on the basis of "an eye for eye" and one cannot get blood from stone. Basically he paid the price for his sins. That however does not mean he did the right thing, the noble thing or anything remotely resembling an act of courage. More so cowardice or was confused.

I frankly have no clue why you thought he was clearing his name or even contemplated that. More bizarre is your comment that it might be that he holds himself to high standards.

Just to clarify something. For Roh's suicide, I do not consider it particularly honourable. Neither will I call someone who did that a coward. In this case, the redemption lies in Roh willing to pay such a heavy price to clear his name. He may not be a hero but to condemn him as a coward is just not right and cowardly behaviour. Much depends on whether he did that to clear his name or to escape more severe punishment. In his case, his punishment, if he is found guilty, cannot be worse than the fate he chose for himself (corrupt politicians are a dime a dozen, some do not even know they are corrupt). That is the reason for my post. By the same token, I will never call Teh a coward, corrupt maybe but not a coward.

For someone to take that step, he must be either extremely desperate or he holds himself to a very high standard. For me, the honour comes from pursuing a course of action that one truly believes in even if the end result will lead to death (not as in committing the act of suicide by itself). Of course, the action itself needs to be honourable in nature.

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

to me i guess it all boils down to what you mean by "escape more severe punishment"...as an ex president, is Roh's 'face and skin' too thin to bear the shame of standing trial and thereafter going to prison and thereafter having to live with a criminal record?...you assume that to Roh his act of suicide is a "more severe punishment" to him...is that really the case?...

to me the same question is also applicable to Teh's case...

Just to clarify something. For Roh's suicide, I do not consider it particularly honourable. Neither will I call someone who did that a coward. In this case, the redemption lies in Roh willing to pay such a heavy price to clear his name. He may not be a hero but to condemn him as a coward is just not right and cowardly behaviour. Much depends on whether he did that to clear his name or to escape more severe punishment. In his case, his punishment, if he is found guilty, cannot be worse than the fate he chose for himself (corrupt politicians are a dime a dozen, some do not even know they are corrupt). That is the reason for my post. By the same token, I will never call Teh a coward, corrupt maybe but not a coward.

For someone to take that step, he must be either extremely desperate or he holds himself to a very high standard. For me, the honour comes from pursuing a course of action that one truly believes in even if the end result will lead to death (not as in committing the act of suicide by itself). Of course, the action itself needs to be honourable in nature.

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

i really feel for those kamikaze pilots and their families...to me they were tricked by their king/royals and their military government into believing that what they were doing was an honourable and spiritual thing...which was plainly hogwash as the jap elites knew that this was lost cause...if i were a kamikaze pilot i would first ask the generals and the royals to fly kamikaze before even considering such ludicrous suicidal action...

I think people tend to mix up things in this space. Its like the Japanese Kamikaze pilot who cause maximum damage by using themselves as weapons of war, usually in times of desperation. Its a noble or considered noble by many..

can't comment much on Roh's case because it was still in prelim stages when he committed suicide...but in Teh's case his son never returned to s'pore not even for his father's funeral...dirty blood money falls on the son's head and hands...in fact his wife and doctor daughter were not much better, quickly hiked off to canada...like i say all this honour thinggy is pure BS...you want to talk of honour...then show real true genuine remorse & humility for the wrongdoings and illegal acts...followed up by truly giving back something to society...

i give an eg...in the 60s in the UK there was the infamous Profumo case that rocked the Macmillan government...Profumo an aristocrat and minister in the government was caught having an affair with a showgirl who was also having an affair with a russian spy at the sametime...Profumo lied in parliament when first questioned about such matters but later on had to resign in disgrace...more importantly he retreated from public life, after taking full responsibility and accountability for actions and then spent the better part of the rest of his life quietly doing community work...

In the case of Roh, Teh, these chaps were facing or going to face criminal charges. If they were remorseful, they would have paid back every single cent that was gained wrongfully. Both Roh and Teh did not pay back a cent. As far as I know the government did not seek any return of illgotten gains either. Clearly no remorse has been shown.

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

yes very well said...

Society tends to accept suicide as closure when it involves criminals not because he did the ultimate act but more on the basis of "an eye for eye" and one cannot get blood from stone. Basically he paid the price for his sins. That however does not mean he did the right thing, the noble thing or anything remotely resembling an act of courage. More so cowardice or was confused. .

exactly...from what i recall Teh was desperately trying to get in touch with harry to get the CPIB off his back...i think evan yeo was the director at that time...when Teh realised that his 'old friend' who had even proudly told parliament that he would go into biz with him had dumped him...Teh probably knew it was curtains for him...in fact i recall Tay Kheng Soon once saying that the old architect's fraternity knew that Teh was a greedy bad egg as far back when Teh was chief of HDB in the 60s...so much for harry and his 'great' ability to judge character and integrity

I frankly have no clue why you thought he was clearing his name or even contemplated that. More bizarre is your comment that it might be that he holds himself to high standards.

 

[scroobal]

Though not exactly the same, we do have soldiers that have drawn fire away from their platoon in acts that is nothing but suicidal. In both these cases, the cause was quite noble. However I have no doubt that the Jap pilots were misled. No different from the crackpots that we see in the middle east and in Sri Lanka with the LTTEs.

i really feel for those kamikaze pilots and their families...to me they were tricked by their king/royals and their military government into believing that what they were doing was an honourable and spiritual thing...which was plainly hogwash as the jap elites knew that this was lost cause...if i were a kamikaze pilot i would first ask the generals and the royals to fly kamikaze before even considering such ludicrous suicidal action...
...

 

[scroobal]

Suicide is an interesting phenomenon. I actually raised this thread because I noticed that people have difficulty interpreting the motives. I am always dumbstruck when they associate it with courage.

can't comment much on Roh's case because it was still in prelim stages when he committed suicide...but in Teh's case his son never returned to s'pore not even for his father's funeral...dirty blood money falls on the son's head and hands...in fact his wife and doctor daughter were not much better, quickly hiked off to canada...like i say all this honour thinggy is pure BS...you want to talk of honour...then show real true genuine remorse & humility for the wrongdoings and illegal acts...followed up by truly giving back something to society...

i give an eg...in the 60s in the UK there was the infamous Profumo case that rocked the Macmillan government...Profumo an aristocrat and minister in the government was caught having an affair with a showgirl who was also having an affair with a russian spy at the sametime...Profumo lied in parliament when first questioned about such matters but later on had to resign in disgrace...more importantly he retreated from public life, after taking full responsibility and accountability for actions and then spent the better part of the rest of his life quietly doing community work...

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

i saw an interesting documentary on this very issue on the history channel...the emperor and his military government have alot to answer for to those poor sod kamikaze pilots and their families...even though all of them are probably also dead by now...

However I have no doubt that the Jap pilots were misled. .

 

[scroobal]

Yes, it was Tay Kheng Soon, Chan Heng Chee's ex. that confirmed it was well known in the industry and for many years. Old man quickly distanced himself and did not offer Teh the option that he offered Wee Toon Boon, a cabinet minister then because Teh's was so bad. Wee on the other hand foolishly turned down the High Commissioner of UK and fought the case.

JBJ knew full well about Teh and thats the reason why old man pursued him to the bitter end for raising it during the hustings.

Old man was so relieved that dirty linen was not going to be washed, that he called him an honourable mandarin. Though the prevention of corruption act has the powers to recover ill gotten gains, nothing was done.

yes very well said...



exactly...from what i recall Teh was desperately trying to get in touch with harry to get the CPIB off his back...i think evan yeo was the director at that time...when Teh realised that his 'old friend' who had even proudly told parliament that he would go into biz with him had dumped him...Teh probably knew it was curtains for him...in fact i recall Tay Kheng Soon once saying that the old architect's fraternity knew that Teh was a greedy bad egg as far back when Teh was chief of HDB in the 60s...so much for harry and his 'great' ability to judge character and integrity

 

[Naturefarm2]

In Korean or Japanese society, the " PM " is usually not the one in power or make decision. that why you can see they change PM like changing cloth.
They are just chess control by the " King maker " in each political parties, these are usually a group of Old man that is called the " chang lao". These people usually do not come out of the lime light and show themselves as they are connected thru a network between goverment and Business community.
If the investigation is to carry on, it will expose too many issue and might lead to massive shake up in the core of the political network.
Thus, usually to " repay" those that put him to the high office, the only way is to end this with a suicide. Its very common in japan, esp in the business world

 

[Lee5604]

Quote: Old man was so relieved that dirty linen was not going to be washed, that he called him an honourable mandarin. Though the prevention of corruption act has the powers to recover ill gotten gains, nothing was done.

I remember correctly Teh Chang Wan was charged with receiveing $800,000 from (one)the HDB's main contractor(s).

Anyway, his daughter and son both had S$1 million dollars in their POSB Account!

Imagine the son and daughter had that much money in their private savings during the early 1980s.

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

the original peanut

Teh's lavish palatial mansion in Bukit Tunggal Rd off chancery lane should have alone set off alarm bells...

I remember correctly Teh Chang Wan was charged with receiveing $800,000 from (one)the HDB's main contractor(s).

Anyway, his daughter and son both had S$1 million dollars in their POSB Account!

Imagine the son and daughter had that much money in their private savings during the early 1980s.

 

[Lestat]

No matter what the reasons, suicide is always the coward way out. Furthermore, it leaves no problems solved but instead leads to more problems.

 

[scroobal]

You do have a point in that the pressure to kill oneself usually comes from those close to you. In fact, the beneficiaries ( for want of better word) of a suicide are usually those that are close associated such family and business and political associates. Inferential pressure mounts to save further embarrassment to those who are closely associated or to secure th ill gotten gains for those who are close.

In Korean or Japanese society, the " PM " is usually not the one in power or make decision. that why you can see they change PM like changing cloth.
They are just chess control by the " King maker " in each political parties, these are usually a group of Old man that is called the " chang lao". These people usually do not come out of the lime light and show themselves as they are connected thru a network between goverment and Business community.
If the investigation is to carry on, it will expose too many issue and might lead to massive shake up in the core of the political network.
Thus, usually to " repay" those that put him to the high office, the only way is to end this with a suicide. Its very common in japan, esp in the business world

 

[Sideswipe]

No matter what the reasons, suicide is always the coward way out. Furthermore, it leaves no problems solved but instead leads to more problems.

It take courage to commit suicide


but it is courageous to continue living too.

Life is really either ways.

 

[boundThunter]

Suicide is never an honour no matter how romanticised the version is, be it Bushido code or Masada or Al Qaida. It is a cowardly way of terminating one's life due to selfishness; inability to face the future.

Suicidal victims that has my respect are those who chose euthanasia because they are wasting away themselves and those around them.

Those afflicted with mental diseases and killed themselves will have my compassion.

 

[Sideswipe]

Suicide is never an honour no matter how romanticised the version is, be it Bushido code or Masada or Al Qaida. It is a cowardly way of terminating one's life due to selfishness; inability to face the future.

Xiang Yu committed suicide even though he could have escaped.

Xīchǔ Bàwáng is def not a coward.

But I guess everyone had their breaking point, he reached his.