Sporns Need to Serve NS, Be Bilingual. No Need for FTrash. WHAT THE FCUK IS HAPPENING

[makapaaa]

<TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%"><TBODY><TR>S'poreans are expected to be bilingual, so why not the new arrivals from China?
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<!-- START OF : div id="storytext"--><DIV class=story_text><!-- more than 4 paragraphs -->I REFER to Monday's letter by Mr Teoh Kueh Liang ('No excessive emphasis on learning Mandarin'), in response to Ms Amy Loh's observations ('No motivation for Mandarin speakers to learn English') on July 11.
Firstly, I think Mr Teoh has missed Ms Loh's point. I admire her unchauvinistic, open-minded view as a Singaporean in stating that a very Chinese enclave has unwittingly been created by allowing more and more foreigners from China to settle down, squat or work in Geylang bringing with them the only language they know, Mandarin. They make no effort at all in responding in any other language and expect everyone else to speak Mandarin.
Geylang is now definitely a Chinese enclave unlike in the 1950s till the turn of the century where all races could live, eat and mix freely speaking either dialect, Malay or English. Nowadays, only one language is well understood there. A 'Chinatown' enclave will breed more evil than good as can be seen in most such 'towns' all over the world.
Ms Loh never mentioned anything about excessive emphasis on Mandarin. She merely pointed out that we are regressing from a fluent English-speaking multilingual society to a Mandarin-speaking one which is slowly but surely making it the de facto national language. Like Malay, I hope English will not take a back seat one day.
We acknowledge China's importance and might in the business world and everything else, but we are in Singapore, a sovereign state with its own Constitution, not a Chinese outpost in South-east Asia.
I hope all newcomers will try harder to integrate into our multilingual society so that Singaporeans will feel more at home in their own homeland.
Singaporeans are expected to be bilingual. Why not the new arrivals?
Shankar Pal Singh

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[makapaaa]

Re: Sporns Need to Serve NS, Be Bilingual. No Need for FTrash. WHAT THE FCUK IS HAPPE

U toking to me?​

 

[Char_Azn]

Re: Sporns Need to Serve NS, Be Bilingual. No Need for FTrash. WHAT THE FCUK IS HAPPE

The guy is talking cock. Just becoz SGreans are bilingual they expect everyone coming here to be bilingual. If all Bangalas needed to sweep the roads, wash our dishes or build our houses are restricted only to bilingual Bangala, I think we can give up trying to get them in.

 

[johnny333]

Re: Sporns Need to Serve NS, Be Bilingual. No Need for FTrash. WHAT THE FCUK IS HAPPE

The guy is talking cock. Just becoz SGreans are bilingual they expect everyone coming here to be bilingual. If all Bangalas needed to sweep the roads, wash our dishes or build our houses are restricted only to bilingual Bangala, I think we can give up trying to get them in.

Whats wrong with expecting FT to speak at least english
These foreigners have to function in a multi-cultural society & you already have cases where the PRC sales staff, bus drivers,..., can't even communicate with the customers.

If you want to STUDY in places like the US, Canada,..., you have some minimum language requirements like TOEFL.

If a bangala, PRC,Indian,..., wants to work in Spore whats wrong with expecting minimum communication skills If they can't meet these requirements then they obviously aren't qualified

 

[Ramseth]

Re: Sporns Need to Serve NS, Be Bilingual. No Need for FTrash. WHAT THE FCUK IS HAPPE

I think that to be fair, not all should be blamed on PRC Chinese in Singapore not making enough effort to communicate in English. Singapore is an ethnic Chinese majority country. Everywhere the go, they'll see ethnic Chinese. It's only natural reflex that they start off conversations with speaking Mandarin.

Just like when I was in San Francisco, I'd naturally speak Cantonese instead of English whenever I came across Chinese Americans.

Singapore is a small and peculiar enclave of Chinese majority, in which ethnic Chinese speaking English to each other is very common, even in private and non-work related conversations. However, PRC Chinese haven't experienced this before and aren't brought up in an environment where the teaching medium is English.

Even among most American Chinese, I noticed that they too speak Cantonese to each other in personal conversations, switching to English only in workplace.

When a PRC Chinese learns English, it's usually for academic or professional advancement purpose only, not so much as a medium for everyday communication.

 

[Char_Azn]

Re: Sporns Need to Serve NS, Be Bilingual. No Need for FTrash. WHAT THE FCUK IS HAPPE

Whats wrong with expecting FT to speak at least english
These foreigners have to function in a multi-cultural society & you already have cases where the PRC sales staff, bus drivers,..., can't even communicate with the customers.

If you want to STUDY in places like the US, Canada,..., you have some minimum language requirements like TOEFL.

If a bangala, PRC,Indian,..., wants to work in Spore whats wrong with expecting minimum communication skills If they can't meet these requirements then they obviously aren't qualified

Thats mainly becoz US generally speak only 1 language(I believe U can also make do with only knowing French in Canada).

Since we have 4 official language, what's wrong with FTs being able to speak at least 1 of the 4? I don't expect one to be able to do a lot of things in Australia speaking only Chinese for example but U can do a lot knowing only Malay, Chinese to some extend even Tamil here. My mum doesn't speak English, doesn't seem like its a problem for her. My aunt doesnt speak any english or too much mandarin, she speaks mainly cantonese and quite a bit of Malay, doesnt seem like it bothers her either

 

[blueblobster]

Re: Sporns Need to Serve NS, Be Bilingual. No Need for FTrash. WHAT THE FCUK IS HAPPE

Thats mainly becoz US generally speak only 1 language(I believe U can also make do with only knowing French in Canada).

Since we have 4 official language, what's wrong with FTs being able to speak at least 1 of the 4? I don't expect one to be able to do a lot of things in Australia speaking only Chinese for example but U can do a lot knowing only Malay, Chinese to some extend even Tamil here. My mum doesn't speak English, doesn't seem like its a problem for her. My aunt doesnt speak any english or too much mandarin, she speaks mainly cantonese and quite a bit of Malay, doesnt seem like it bothers her either

Your logic is flawed. Your aunt and mum are Singaporeans (I assumed). They have their roots here so the lack of English skill is not a problem.

The PRCs are here to WORK not to enjoy life as tourists. Don't compare them with the Blangas. The PRCs are mostly here in the service industry NOT construction. In the service industry, you are expected to speak the common language of the country you work in. This applies if you want to work in the service industry anywhere in the world.

On your example of Canada, I think it only applies to Montreal. I've yet to see a non- English speaking foreigner working in a food court or restaurant. Even Chinese working in Chinese restaurants can take orders in English. In foodcourts, Asian staff will also automatically speak to me in English.

Point is, if you want to work in the service industry, you ARE expected to speak the common language. Otherwise stay home or join the blangas on the construction site.

 

[JohnTT]

Re: Sporns Need to Serve NS, Be Bilingual. No Need for FTrash. WHAT THE FCUK IS HAPPE

Govt only wants $$$$.

 

[Char_Azn]

Re: Sporns Need to Serve NS, Be Bilingual. No Need for FTrash. WHAT THE FCUK IS HAPPE

Your logic is flawed. Your aunt and mum are Singaporeans (I assumed). They have their roots here so the lack of English skill is not a problem.

The PRCs are here to WORK not to enjoy life as tourists. Don't compare them with the Blangas. The PRCs are mostly here in the service industry NOT construction. In the service industry, you are expected to speak the common language of the country you work in. This applies if you want to work in the service industry anywhere in the world.

I don't understand how my logic is flawed. Last I checked, both my mum and aunt works here(yes both are locals). And neither of them works in the construction industry. And it so happens, both works in the service industry.

On your example of Canada, I think it only applies to Montreal. I've yet to see a non- English speaking foreigner working in a food court or restaurant. Even Chinese working in Chinese restaurants can take orders in English. In foodcourts, Asian staff will also automatically speak to me in English.

Isn't Montreal part of Canada? If that's the case, what's wrong with my example?

Point is, if you want to work in the service industry, you ARE expected to speak the common language. Otherwise stay home or join the blangas on the construction site.

Your view of the service industry seems to be a very narrow one

Other examples of service sector employment include:

* Franchising
* News media
* Education
* Hospitality industry (e.g. restaurants, hotels, casinos)
* Consulting
* Legal practice
* Healthcare/hospitals
* Waste disposal
* Real estate
* Personal services
* Business services
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Service_industries

I am fairly certain you do not need to know english if you are into Waste disposal. And since I was a kid, I've been to many Chinese restaurants with staff who doesn't know how to speak English, locals or FTs.

My point is that the idea of every freaking FTs having to be bilingual or at least be able to speak English isn't really necessary however they must be able to at least communicate with the pple whom they need to interact with within their jobscope.

Do we need all cleaners to speak English? Not really. My aunt is a an office cleaner, she doesnt speak a word of English. Does a waitress working at a Chinese Restaurant need to know how to speak English? Preferably, but not necessary I personally know a lot of older local waitresses working in Chinese restaurants who doesnt speak English. Does someone working at a Food Centre needs to know how to speak English? I don't think so, my mum doesn't speak English. But someone working in a Hotel or maybe a sales girl at a local shopping mall probably needs to be able to communicate in English.

Like I said, if the job requires it, yes please get an FT who speaks the language. But to demand that all FTs needs to be able to communicate in English or be bilingual, I don't think its necessary.

 

[blueblobster]

Re: Sporns Need to Serve NS, Be Bilingual. No Need for FTrash. WHAT THE FCUK IS HAPPE

I don't understand how my logic is flawed. Last I checked, both my mum and aunt works here(yes both are locals). And neither of them works in the construction industry. And it so happens, both works in the service industry.



Isn't Montreal part of Canada? If that's the case, what's wrong with my example?



Your view of the service industry seems to be a very narrow one



I am fairly certain you do not need to know english if you are into Waste disposal. And since I was a kid, I've been to many Chinese restaurants with staff who doesn't know how to speak English, locals or FTs.

My point is that the idea of every freaking FTs having to be bilingual or at least be able to speak English isn't really necessary however they must be able to at least communicate with the pple whom they need to interact with within their jobscope.

Do we need all cleaners to speak English? Not really. My aunt is a an office cleaner, she doesnt speak a word of English. Does a waitress working at a Chinese Restaurant need to know how to speak English? Preferably, but not necessary I personally know a lot of older local waitresses working in Chinese restaurants who doesnt speak English. Does someone working at a Food Centre needs to know how to speak English? I don't think so, my mum doesn't speak English. But someone working in a Hotel or maybe a sales girl at a local shopping mall probably needs to be able to communicate in English.

Like I said, if the job requires it, yes please get an FT who speaks the language. But to demand that all FTs needs to be able to communicate in English or be bilingual, I don't think its necessary.

Your mother lives in Singapore but a PRC chooses to come to SG to work in the service industry. Your mother does not have a choice but the PRC does. If you choose to work in the service industry in an English speaking country, then you better know how to speak the language. Don't you find it absurd that a PRC can go to a foreign land and expects the people there to speak his language?

I didn't say your example was wrong. I said it only applies to certain parts of Canada. You chose to ignore that. Point is, I've yet to see an eating place with non- English speaking staff, including those staffed entirely by Asians. There may be some who can't speak English but there will always be others who can to cater to the non- Chinese customers. And this is the critical difference between Canada and SG. In SG, it is not uncommon to have small eating joints staffed by 1 or 2 PRCs who are clueless about English. I doubt you can survive very long working in a restaurant in Vancouver (as an FT) if you speak only French.

From the long list you show me, it would appear that only waste disposal does not require English skills and that is still dependent on the position. But I will not nitpick on that because I know what you are trying to say.

But tell me, how many PRCs in SG are in the waste industry compared to F&B? In the SG context, you should know which industry is more relevant. English is therefore very necessary.

 

[johnny333]

Re: Sporns Need to Serve NS, Be Bilingual. No Need for FTrash. WHAT THE FCUK IS HAPPE

Thats mainly becoz US generally speak only 1 language(I believe U can also make do with only knowing French in Canada).

Since we have 4 official language, what's wrong with FTs being able to speak at least 1 of the 4? ....

In Canada, if you speak only French you would find it hard to function outside places like Quebec or Montreal. However as native Canadians are bilingual l, even the Quebecois understand english. New immigrants are expected to have a functional level of english or French. You do have dependants(e.g. parents, grand parents) who don't understand the language, but there are plenty of language courses available

In the case of Spore although there are 4 offical languages, lets be realistic what kind of good paying jobs are there if you only speak indian, malay, or chinese :confused

The flood of cheap labor is just that, cheap labor. What the gov't is doing is wage dumping. With such policies Its not surprising that many citizens are leaving Spore

 

[Char_Azn]

Re: Sporns Need to Serve NS, Be Bilingual. No Need for FTrash. WHAT THE FCUK IS HAPPE

Your mother lives in Singapore but a PRC chooses to come to SG to work in the service industry. Your mother does not have a choice but the PRC does. If you choose to work in the service industry in an English speaking country, then you better know how to speak the language. Don't you find it absurd that a PRC can go to a foreign land and expects the people there to speak his language?

No, like I said earlier

My point is that the idea of every freaking FTs having to be bilingual or at least be able to speak English isn't really necessary however they must be able to at least communicate with the pple whom they need to interact with within their jobscope.

Do we need all cleaners to speak English? Not really. My aunt is a an office cleaner, she doesnt speak a word of English. Does a waitress working at a Chinese Restaurant need to know how to speak English? Preferably, but not necessary I personally know a lot of older local waitresses working in Chinese restaurants who doesnt speak English. Does someone working at a Food Centre needs to know how to speak English? I don't think so, my mum doesn't speak English. But someone working in a Hotel or maybe a sales girl at a local shopping mall probably needs to be able to communicate in English.

Like I said, if the job requires it, yes please get an FT who speaks the language. But to demand that all FTs needs to be able to communicate in English or be bilingual, I don't think its necessary.

I didn't say your example was wrong. I said it only applies to certain parts of Canada. You chose to ignore that. Point is, I've yet to see an eating place with non- English speaking staff, including those staffed entirely by Asians. There may be some who can't speak English but there will always be others who can to cater to the non- Chinese customers. And this is the critical difference between Canada and SG. In SG, it is not uncommon to have small eating joints staffed by 1 or 2 PRCs who are clueless about English. I doubt you can survive very long working in a restaurant in Vancouver (as an FT) if you speak only French.

Yeah but the guy probably doesn't have any problems working in Montreal any other french speaking parts of Canada. Like I point out earlier,

My point is that the idea of every freaking FTs having to be bilingual or at least be able to speak English isn't really necessary however they must be able to at least communicate with the pple whom they need to interact with within their jobscope.

From the long list you show me, it would appear that only waste disposal does not require English skills and that is still dependent on the position. But I will not nitpick on that because I know what you are trying to say.

But tell me, how many PRCs in SG are in the waste industry compared to F&B? In the SG context, you should know which industry is more relevant. English is therefore very necessary.

My family owns a stall in Chinatown selling food and my mum can't speak english to save her life. Doesn't seem to have stopped them from doing business for the last 4 decades or so. I'm pretty sure we consider that F&B and not waste disposal

Quite a number of my parent's friends doesn't speak english, some barely speak mandarin, doesn't seem to stop them from working in various positions in restaurant. Ur view of a jobs available in restaurant seems only limited to waiters/waitresses. Restaurant jobs can include chefs, cooks, cleaners, dish washers, waiter/waiteress, etc. The only pple among all these who needs to know english are the managers and those in charge of taking orders(bigger more traditional Chinese restaurants have seperate pple taking orders), the rest doesnt. Which brings me back to my point

Like I said, if the job requires it, yes please get an FT who speaks the language. But to demand that all FTs needs to be able to communicate in English or be bilingual, I don't think its necessary.

 

[SamuelStalin]

Re: Sporns Need to Serve NS, Be Bilingual. No Need for FTrash. WHAT THE FCUK IS HAPPE

Yes. But I think even in Canada, in Quebec, if you try French and speak it badly you would be ridiculed, unlike English. The French are extremely proud of their language, though its practical use is limited (even Alain Delon when traveling out of France to attend talk shows had to speak English hahaha)

So are the Japanese. I feel Chinese must also be very proud of their language. And the Chinese language is unique. Simplified and Traditional. The truly educated would know most of both, not just one, as you know, it has become political as well. If you know only the former, the other side would say you are a communist, and if you know only the latter, you would be called a renegade and an anti-China traitor.

And I see many Chinese nationals here speak English pretty well, be they counter staff, supermarket staff. Sometimes they speak to me first in Mandarin when they don't need to, and I respond in kind. Why speak a foreign language over our mother tongue?

And it seems to them that on arrival they do know that Singaporean Chinese are notoriously laughable failures in the native language, so they speak to local Chinese in English which I think, is out of part-professionalism and part-mockery ("charity" for the bananas). It is kind of disgusting when even in the 90s a Chinese national when asking me for directions would first ask me "ni hui jiang hua yu ma?" It was not mockery - he just wanted to make sure.

And when I speak to them in Mandarin, they would respond in the same language. So far I tried with one, so I can't say all. But some local Chinese I notice (the sample size for this is larger), even though almost all are literal rubbish in speaking English, but when I speak to them in Chinese in considering their situation they would actually speak back to me in English. And I had to endure their mispronunciations and grammatical errors before nodding and moving on to what I had to do next.

So much for the local banana mentality.

In Canada, if you speak only French you would find it hard to function outside places like Quebec or Montreal. However as native Canadians are bilingual l, even the Quebecois understand english. New immigrants are expected to have a functional level of english or French. You do have dependants(e.g. parents, grand parents) who don't understand the language, but there are plenty of language courses available

In the case of Spore although there are 4 offical languages, lets be realistic what kind of good paying jobs are there if you only speak indian, malay, or chinese :confused

The flood of cheap labor is just that, cheap labor. What the gov't is doing is wage dumping. With such policies Its not surprising that many citizens are leaving Spore

 

[blueblobster]

Re: Sporns Need to Serve NS, Be Bilingual. No Need for FTrash. WHAT THE FCUK IS HAPPE

No, like I said earlier







Yeah but the guy probably doesn't have any problems working in Montreal any other french speaking parts of Canada. Like I point out earlier,







My family owns a stall in Chinatown selling food and my mum can't speak english to save her life. Doesn't seem to have stopped them from doing business for the last 4 decades or so. I'm pretty sure we consider that F&B and not waste disposal

Quite a number of my parent's friends doesn't speak english, some barely speak mandarin, doesn't seem to stop them from working in various positions in restaurant. Ur view of a jobs available in restaurant seems only limited to waiters/waitresses. Restaurant jobs can include chefs, cooks, cleaners, dish washers, waiter/waiteress, etc. The only pple among all these who needs to know english are the managers and those in charge of taking orders(bigger more traditional Chinese restaurants have seperate pple taking orders), the rest doesnt. Which brings me back to my point

Your argument revolves almost entirely around your non- English speaking SINGAPOREAN relatives. The issue here is NOT about locals (which I have already explained the difference in a previous reply to you) but whether or not an FT should learn the MOST common language of the country he wants to work in. Bringing up Singaporeans in your argument is irrelevant which was why I said your logic is flawed in the first place.

BUT... if you think that there is nothing wrong with an FT going to another country (by choice, mind you) and expecting the host to adapt to him and not the other way round, then I have nothing more to say to you.

 

[motuiti]

Re: Sporns Need to Serve NS, Be Bilingual. No Need for FTrash. WHAT THE FCUK IS HAPPE

The PAP government needs to offer all PRC's a mandatory 6 week course in English before they can get their visas.

 

[blueblobster]

Re: Sporns Need to Serve NS, Be Bilingual. No Need for FTrash. WHAT THE FCUK IS HAPPE

In Canada, if you speak only French you would find it hard to function outside places like Quebec or Montreal. However as native Canadians are bilingual l, even the Quebecois understand english. New immigrants are expected to have a functional level of english or French. You do have dependants(e.g. parents, grand parents) who don't understand the language, but there are plenty of language courses available

In the case of Spore although there are 4 offical languages, lets be realistic what kind of good paying jobs are there if you only speak indian, malay, or chinese :confused

The flood of cheap labor is just that, cheap labor. What the gov't is doing is wage dumping. With such policies Its not surprising that many citizens are leaving Spore

In Canada, new immigrants are given lots of opportunities to learn English, sometimes even for free. The government there recognizes that to thrive in Canada, you need to adapt rather than expect the Canadians to adapt to you.

In Singapore, everything is profit oriented which allows businessmen to hire low quality FTs by the truck load to take up jobs a normal Singaporean is willing to do. Employers do not care if an FT cannot speak English. The thinking is that the majority of Singaporeans are Chinese anyway and should be able to communicate with the FTs in Chinese. They can afford to lose some business from the minorities as long as labour is cheap. Everything boils down to money in SG and they are just following the example set by the government.

 

[johnny333]

Re: Sporns Need to Serve NS, Be Bilingual. No Need for FTrash. WHAT THE FCUK IS HAPPE

In Canada, new immigrants are given lots of opportunities to learn English, sometimes even for free. The government there recognizes that to thrive in Canada, you need to adapt rather than expect the Canadians to adapt to you.

.....

Mustn't forget about the many training options avaliable for adults in Canada. I know many who've used it to do a career change/an upgrade/ or a simply take a break .

Any adult can attend & its not exclusive to only the young or expensive. Even have senior citizens who are attending courses for FREE

A few years from now, when there is a post mortem on the failures of the PAP, discarding our older citizens will be added to the other "honest mistakes" like "Stop at Two"

 

[jim007jimmyboy]

Re: Sporns Need to Serve NS, Be Bilingual. No Need for FTrash. WHAT THE FCUK IS HAPPE

here in sinkaPoor we are expected to adapt to FTrash culture

 

[SamuelStalin]

Re: Sporns Need to Serve NS, Be Bilingual. No Need for FTrash. WHAT THE FCUK IS HAPPE

Anyhow, whether the host has adapted to the Chinese guests (let us keep in mind that the host has ALWAYS done so for Japanese and Western guests since the 60s when he gained independence) this time (and they are employees, not employers!) it is evident that from the state of development China has indeed emerged as a rising force and now is able to command some respect on the world stage.

Chinese are Chinese whether they are born within or without China, so, should Chinese not use their mother tongue instead of English? This is also the opportunity for the local Chinese to improve their command of the language, (标准华语), and stop being the laughing stocks of the world.

People here, especially the Chinese, should stop being bananas and be proud of their own language and heritage. Even the indigenous Malays and some Indians have more dignity in this aspect, yet the average among them without even a high school education can speak better English than most of you.

Living the debased Westernized lifestyle is one thing, but think of how more enraged your ancestors will be if they knew your English is good, but your Chinese is not even up to par.

We could care about what the other people think of China's rise. Also, it would do best as well for them to understand that many of these Asean countries wouldn't be get to where they are economically without the presence of the hardworking and industrious Chinese communities.

 

[dysentry]

Re: Sporns Need to Serve NS, Be Bilingual. No Need for FTrash. WHAT THE FCUK IS HAPPE

The pinoys have a skill for imitation, they can say "walau eh" like a local.

No wonder many cover bands are pinoy.