Singapore owes its success to LKY, do you agree? Why?

[iFARKurMADER]

Had a heated debate with my friends a few days ago about this issue.

to me, i disagree but my friend's main point FOR this argument is

1) without LKY, singapore would be like malaysia
2) Singapore has affordable and minimum standard education, unlike some countries with little or no education
3) Singaporeans have a useful passport
4) Singapore is more modern than malaysia (comparing because LKY took the leadership after malaysia break away)
5) LKY did a good job when compared to some of the very unfortunate countries in the world
6) singapore public transport is still cheaper than other developed countries/cities like new york, tokyo, LA etc

although they do agree that

1) singapore need more oppositions in parliament
2) singapore needs to open books of temasek and GIC


my friends are engineers and bankers and probably earn about 7-8k per month but NOT working in singapore. they would fall under the "middle income group" i guess.

what are your thoughts? please make this a constructive and well debated thread available for all to come back and read and participate rather than a flaming thread.

please restrict this discussion to the times in singapore before GCT took over

 

[valiant20]

Main Argument against this would be:

Not just LKY, but his entire team of government. LKY by himself would be useless without the rest of them..

 

[saratogas]

There is alot if IFs here... If LKY isn't that aggressive he may have ruled the whole if Malaysia...

 

[neddy]

LKY is a lucky man. He is the right man, enough charisma, leadership, foresight and excellent at delegating dirty business to royal dogs to pave the way for him. And behind him is an even more formidable power and life partner at that time. Gecko.

Right time
- He has a united team who kicked the Brit out.
- Trouble maker Indonesia was stable, US and USSR wan cold war means Singapore reaped the benefits of working with USA. No sure why his son has to study Russian - the other superpower at that time.
- Europe is coming together in a community, after getting rid of the facist dictatorship in southern Europe. This means economic benefits for Singapore and other asian tigers.
- Trading was taking place at the time of post war baby boom

Right place
- The Brit did a wonderful job with the crown colony
- Singapore is at the trading crossroad of 2 parts of the world, each raising in economic status with economic growth.
- M'sia kick Singapore out, this motivate the people behind him.
- Surrounding Singapore are countries who do not have the infrastructures which the Brit and Admiralty left behind.
- China had the cultural revolution, Indo-China at war, etc So, Singapore became blessed, along with the other 3 tiger economies.
- Among the 4 tiger economies, Singapore was the best placed because HK was Brit, Taiwan was in martial laws, S Korea was official at war with the North.


If LKY had came to power in 2010, everything will be different.

It is difficult to argue that Singapore economic success is NOT due to LKY. Economic only.

 

[iFARKurMADER]

[Main Argument against this would be:

Not just LKY, but his entire team of government. LKY by himself would be useless without the rest of them.. }

i said that too, but my friends said if it wasn't LKY and someone esle, he might not allow the government to do what was been done. eg, another prime minister other than LKY, with the same people in the government, may order singapore to abolish education altogether (just an example of a drastic decision)

 

[Nobody888]

"my friends are engineers and bankers and probably earn about 7-8k per month but NOT working in singapore. they would fall under the "middle income group" i guess."

If Singapore is so good for them, then why the need to base overseas? Also, if they spend most of their time at overseas, then it shows they cannot really feel/understand the real problems shared by most Singaporean.

 

[batman1]

1st genaration pap leaders like ong pang boon,goh keng swee,hon sui sen,lim kim san,toh chin chye and all singaporeans work hard to achieve what we are today,a collective effort,nothing to do with the old fart who is only a
demagogue gangster who is quick to claim credit and play out his comrades for his personal career and ambitions.In short,he is a mad dog crazy for power and money.

 

[hairylee]

Without his 1st generation cabinet colleagues he goes nowhere. This can be seen as once he retires his comrades he went haywire.

 

[po2wq]

...
1) ...
6) ...

ur frens were merely parroting wat dey read in dat 154th ... dey r excellen eg's of brainwashed sinkies ...

wif tings betta dan msia or any less developed cuntries, compare sinkielan wif dem ... if tings r worser dan msia, den compare sinkielan wif other worseror developed cuntries ...


if sinkielan owes iz success 2 ah u, ah u's success owes 2 who? ... sinkies? ... ah u wil never admit dat ...

 

[Fook Seng]

Had a heated debate with my friends a few days ago about this issue.

to me, i disagree but my friend's main point FOR this argument is

1) without LKY, singapore would be like malaysia
2) Singapore has affordable and minimum standard education, unlike some countries with little or no education
3) Singaporeans have a useful passport
4) Singapore is more modern than malaysia (comparing because LKY took the leadership after malaysia break away)
5) LKY did a good job when compared to some of the very unfortunate countries in the world
6) singapore public transport is still cheaper than other developed countries/cities like new york, tokyo, LA etc

1) Without LKY, Singapore will be like Switzerland.
2) Other countries do not have artificial restrictions on the number of students who can enter university. Although they may not be smarter or better students than Singapore kids, more are able to enter the university. Compare this with similarly developed economies.
3) The passport means that a lot of work has been done to arrive at reciprocal arrangement with other countries. It does not mean that other countries' passports wouldn't allow them to enter other countries. They only need to apply for Visa.
4) Malaysia had the world's tallest building at one time. Singapore did not. Today, in addition to the KLCC towers, there are a few other buildings taller than Singapore's tallest.
5) Even Malaysia, when compared with the unfortunate countries, they are better.
6) Malaysia's public transport is cheaper than Singapore's and so is the cost of living. It is easier to own a house or a car in Malaysia and many middle class people do.

 

[iFARKurMADER]

hi Nobody888,

they did not say LKY is DOING A JOB NOW.

what they were arguing is LKY DID A GOOD JOB before GCT took over. 1965 - late 1980's

please keep your argument to that time period

If Singapore is so good for them, then why the need to base overseas? Also, if they spend most of their time at overseas, then it shows they cannot really feel/understand the real problems shared by most Singaporean.

 

[iFARKurMADER]

please see what my friends said to me, i said very similar things as what you did and they replied similar to answers below in red

1) Without LKY, Singapore will be like Switzerland. how can you prove it? singapore could be like Iraq too, how do you prove? the truth now is singapore is a developed country
2) Other countries do not have artificial restrictions on the number of students who can enter university. Although they may not be smarter or better students than Singapore kids, more are able to enter the university. Compare this with similarly developed economies. of course all countries' education has flaws, but singaporeans are famed as one of the most efficient workers in the world, the fact that we are all sitting here in debating about this and not fighting some war against america says something right?
3) The passport means that a lot of work has been done to arrive at reciprocal arrangement with other countries. It does not mean that other countries' passports wouldn't allow them to enter other countries. They only need to apply for Visa. they asked me to talk to a few PRC's about getting visa just for a short visit to many countries
4) Malaysia had the world's tallest building at one time. Singapore did not. Today, in addition to the KLCC towers, there are a few other buildings taller than Singapore's tallest. this wasn't in our argument and i think all of us does not care either
5) Even Malaysia, when compared with the unfortunate countries, they are better. malaysia is not a developed country, its a developing country
6) Malaysia's public transport is cheaper than Singapore's and so is the cost of living. It is easier to own a house or a car in Malaysia and many middle class people do.

they asked "so would you work and live in malaysia? send your kids to school in malaysia? i know i wouldn't" and they named many mutual friends that i know would not do that

 

[valiant20]

[Main Argument against this would be:

Not just LKY, but his entire team of government. LKY by himself would be useless without the rest of them.. }

i said that too, but my friends said if it wasn't LKY and someone esle, he might not allow the government to do what was been done. eg, another prime minister other than LKY, with the same people in the government, may order singapore to abolish education altogether (just an example of a drastic decision)

You can rebute your friends..

"Its also possible, Singapore would be a in a better position than it is now, if any one of his colleagues who may have had a better foresight than him, was the prime minister".

Perhaps we would not be having so many immigrant/foreign workers problems, overcrowding and Singaporeans would take up blue collar jobs, which would pay as much as white collar jobs, i.e. a real developed country. We are not there YET

We are just like dubai.. at the moment with so much heavy reliance on foreign workers and not giving them fair work conditions.

 

[chuckyworld]

Singapore owe it success to it citizens......

 

[hairylee]

Singapore owe it success to it citizens......

Yes, and now LKY and Family owed their living to 60% sinkies.

 

[po2wq]

... what they were arguing is LKY DID A GOOD JOB before GCT took over. 1965 - late 1980's
please keep your argument to that time period

u want 2 kip ze argumen 2 ze period btwin 1965 n late 1980's ... yet ur frens r not ...

u mentioned paspot ... during ah u's time, there were stil ze iron curtain countries ... was it e-z 2 travel wifin dose countries? ... dat time, prc's stil haf hell lot of difficulty trying 2 step out of prc lan ...

u mentioned chip public transpot compared 2 developed cuntries ... ya, it was very much chippa den ... dat time, sinkielan's mrt has oni 2 lines, hor! ... sbs bus fare max was $1.20 ... dey noe wat was ze transpot cost in msia or ze developed cuntries @ dat time? ...

---

... they asked "so would you work and live in malaysia? send your kids to school in malaysia? i know i wouldn't" and they named many mutual friends that i know would not do that

wud dey wok n live in prc? vietnam? ... wud dey send their kids 2 skool in prc or vietnam? ...

a lot on sinkies r working in prc/vietnam n send their kids 2 international skools there now ...

if dey say dun mind prc/vietnam, y not msia? ... msia crime-infested? so, r prc/vietnam ... if sinkies in prc/vietnam send their kids 2 international skools, dey oso can do ze same in msia ...


dey r juz havin ze typical sinkie mentality n brainwashed by dat 154th ...

 

[Kohliantye]

[/B]

1) Without LKY, Singapore will be like Switzerland.
Strongly agree with your point. Life would have been much better for a smal island city state with only 2 million. Easier to feed a small population then what it is now. However Switzerland still can. Truly admirable.

2) Other countries do not have artificial restrictions on the number of students who can enter university. Although they may not be smarter or better students than Singapore kids, more are able to enter the university. Compare this with similarly developed economies.
This is a fact. Why impose such stringent conditions on your own citizens. They are willing to take in outsiders but leave out their own. Charity Begins At Home.

3) The passport means that a lot of work has been done to arrive at reciprocal arrangement with other countries. It does not mean that other countries' passports wouldn't allow them to enter other countries. They only need to apply for Visa.
Yes there is nothing great about our passport. Infact the US passport is much more respected in all the World, including Communist China.

4) Malaysia had the world's tallest building at one time. Singapore did not. Today, in addition to the KLCC towers, there are a few other buildings taller than Singapore's tallest.
Height of buildings should not be a measure to gauge the quality of a country. What is needed is WELFARE of the people closest to our hearts. We were only 2 million then but still there wasn't welfare. Infact under the Brits we were much better off. Under-nourished school-kids were provided free milk in school. The Mobile Dispensary coming to the kampongs provided free medical attention. Even our chickens were given free jabs to remain healthy.

5) Even Malaysia, when compared with the unfortunate countries, they are better.
Yes off course Malaysia is better ioff. If only the Malaysian financial scandals can be contained and they treat all their citizens as bumiputeras, they will be on the road to greater wealth and happiness.

6) Malaysia's public transport is cheaper than Singapore's and so is the cost of living. It is easier to own a house or a car in Malaysia and many middle class people do.
Very true, Malaysia"s cost of living is still much lower then ours. Even their daily-rated workers employed in Singapore as tile-layers, small-time businessmen, security officers with Aetos and Certis Cisco owns landed properties in Malaysia. DO NOT BE FOOLED BY THE BROKEN-DOWN MOTORCYCLES that they ride into Singapore to work. They do this to pay lesser to LTA and hence earn high wages in Singapore. To them Singapore is just a good destination for making money. At one time the same was with Israel - they allowed Palestinians to work within Israel until the former started to let off bombs within Israel.

 

[MBSSLOTS]

Singapore owes its success to sinkies themselves. Why is there a need to always give credit to 1 person???

 

[tyudm]

Singapore owes its success to sinkies themselves. Why is there a need to always give credit to 1 person???

Sinkies owes Sg nothing!
CPF owes Sinkies billions!
LKY & son owes Sinkies a lot!
Fuck the the father & son!
and not forgetting the the useless and gambling President!

 

[Kohliantye]

These are the people who owes living Singaporeans a lot;

Those good folks who died in the defence of the Nation during the Japanese Occupation.

Those late members of the SIR who died while fighting the forces of the late Azahari and his Indonesian saboteurs (now called terrorists) in the Undeclared War or Brunei rebellion.

The many policemen (called running dogs of the government) who were systematically eliminated by the Communists under Chin Peng.

Those poor innocent local people who died when the Indonesian saboteurs bombed Macdonald House and Jalan Wangi (Sennet estate) at the height of the Indonesian Konfrontasi by Sukarno.

The many Singaporeans whose lives were snuffed out during the Maria Hertogh Riots and the other riots that followed.

The innocent young Singapore NSmen who lost their lives in the course of compulsory NS.

Those that truly deserve such accolades are those mentioned above along with the present and past civil servants and uniformed personnels along with the hundreds of unskilled Singaporeans and Kelantanese workers who died while building highrise flats in Queenstown, Persiaran Keliling (Circuit Road now), Bukit Ho Swee and Toa Payoh.

Pray, show me one Minister or Government Leader who died in the service of the Nation???? These are the well-protected ones always away from harms way.

So please do not say that LKY is the cause of the success of Singapore.