Singapore - a Nation or an Economy?

[zhihau]

... Get the picture ...

we can't really just depend on the tourism dollar, can we? unless Singapore is the heaven on earth? :p

 

[scroobal]

On the other hand, people talk about PRs not staying. Question would be, do they feel welcome in the first place? Moving a family to another country is a big pain. Was it a push factor or a pull factor?

I think its a combination of push and pull factors. I know that migrants are offered a host of amenities in the first 2 years such as subsidised rentals, PIPs progarm etc. I am also aware that grassroots organisation are given directives on these things.

As I mentioned earlier that a 20 yr vet expat feels that Singapore quality of life has deteriorated and wonders if we can afford the space to accmmodate.

It will be good if others could throw light on the issues faced by new migrants.

 

[zhihau]

... On the other hand, people talk about PRs not staying. Question would be, do they feel welcome in the first place? Moving a family to another country is a big pain. Was it a push factor or a pull factor? ...

last noted, humans have a tendency to congregate and stick to something familiar... adaptation would take time, and it's like a light bulb switch, it has to cross the threshold for them to feel at home.

we can't really attribute their decision to stay strictly to a push or pull, and at most times, it is a combination of both.

 

[scroobal]

we can't really just depend on the tourism dollar, can we? unless Singapore is the heaven on earth? :p

I think its much more than that. There is also the issue of managing expectations of locals and FTs. The government should be more transparent and engage the locals and FTs. There should be debates and discussions. If at the end of the day, all roads point to the current policy as it is implemented, there will be less anguish, pain and a lot more understanding.

Its like your dad telling you that you have to go to NTU, but not SMU or NUS. He does not tell you why, he does not involve you in his decision, he does not seek your views and once a year at the family gathering he tells everyone that he made the decision on NTU, its hard on him to make such a decision, the burden is his, it might not be popular and he ends by saying he knows best.

As a man of science, does it not insult your intelligence and training that citizenship numbers are not revealed but tourism numbers are?

 

[zhihau]

... It will be good if others could throw light on the issues faced by new migrants ...

perhaps i could share this true account.

previously, my ex-neighbors was from India, and they are a great bunch of friendly folks, initially PR, and later got their Citizenship if i recall correctly, and they eventually got their own flat.

they are vegetarians by the way and they took the effort to mingle around with the locals and i gladly shared table with them at the kopitiam for meals.

the good bloke is so impressed with the cleanliness and orderliness he said he wanted to repay by doing social/grassroots works, perhaps even help out in politics/policy making. a pity i've lost such friendly folks as neighbors but we kept in contact.

currently, my new neighbors from China seemed to be a lil' more on the reserved side, and i haven't even got to catch their names. there's the usual hi's and bye's but nothing deeper than that.

perhaps they're new here and still adapting to the sudden changes... we'll see ;p

 

[scroobal]

perhaps i could share this true account.

Thanks for sharing bro. Generally people who migrate are prepared to put the hard yards and acknowledge the hospitality of the host country. They will add to our gene pool (you are the expert here) but make this a better country.

I am more concerned with those that are allowed in so liberally. The fact that we have streetwalkers from nearly every SEA country and best of all, controlling their distinct patch of territory ie Vietnamese in Joo Chiat etc is a poor sign of management. Its a common sight in HDB coffeeshops to see Ah Peks getting targetted by you know who.

The family from Indian and PRC will start wondering if Singapore is the right place to make a home when you have activities like these at your front door.

I am not sure if you are aware, the expats are very well presented in the corridors of power. A phone call and any attempt to street walk in Holland Village will see immediate action. You ever wonder who is the citizen and who is not.

ps. You are too nice a person. Your neighbours are very lucky to have you. It creates a wonderful impression of Singaporeans for new arrivals.

 

[KKC007]

If the sentiments on the ground towards "FT" is the same as that of the kopitiam in delphi, no FT will feel welcome.

When my family first landed in our new city, we were shown to a separate processing area for new migrants in the airport. The immigration officers were axxholes as usual, but there was a volunteer (maybe a paid employee) from a NGO greeting all new migrants and giving out phamplets on where they can get help, what our rights are, how to apply for various identifications and what free monies we were entitled to from the government! THAT was a big "WELCOME to your new country".

 

[lockeliberal]

Dear Scroobal

Excessive analyzing the situation and not enough talent in situating the analysis or situating myself with the people who know people who know more people etc etc etc.

I believe that there is an inherent tendency in policy makers to take safe options. One can write a twenty page paper summarizing the need for dual citizenship but it all boils down to an admittance that instead of making a Singapore Citizenship more attractive we would rather make dual citizenship viable because it does not entail any more effort apart from writing papers, the manufactured support of the ST, the usual cheer leaders in the ST and parliament.

I hanker for the days of the sixties where policy makers had imangination and drive because well Singapore had nothing and was nothing. It was literally seat of the pants decision making which was in my view highly entrepernarial and imanginative. Defying economic orthodoxy in the sixties and looking at FDI stands out in my mind.

Locke

 

[scroobal]

Dear Scroobal

I hanker for the days of the sixties where policy makers had imangination and drive because well Singapore had nothing and was nothing. It was literally seat of the pants decision making which was in my view highly entrepernarial and imanginative. Defying economic orthodoxy in the sixties and looking at FDI stands out in my mind. Locke

Even in the 70s and 80s, you could sense the minds of some great characters when they were formulating policies. Pillay was one even though he was reticent. Bogaars was another and he made sure everyone knew about it. Sim Kee Boon walking out of London about the airport access was another.

Now you have no clue about who was an architect or author of what policy. Which goes to your point of taking safe options. Why bother as remuneration is so high that one would be taking risks foolishly.

 

[NgEjay]

the pluses from the migrants must be tapped upon, whilst not causing much detrimental effects of the host's genome

The same should be true for every govt policy, not just the FT policy.

if the elite truly engineered the migrants to come, they merely made this place more attractive to them

Yes, they have certainly made Singapore attractive to foreigners, but have they made SG a better *home* for our own citizens? I venture "no".

If they are truly interested in what they term "sustainable growth", and not just sustainable in terms of the physical environment, why the lop-sided policies?

E-Jay

 

[zhihau]

... Thanks for sharing bro ...

just to share another account:

i was just having my cuppa at Parkway Parade earlier, and i see a colorful display of folks of all shapes and sizes... Koreans, Americans, and some Africans as well... a sincere smile and a nod, it is usually reciprocated...

i see a chance in creating a miracle here in this metropolitan Singapore, as long as we truly believe that everyone is equal and no preferential treatment is given just to anyone.

ps: nothing beats my S.Korean ex-neighbors last time, they trust my family so much we had each others' house keys, not just for my S.Korean neighbors, i held the keys to 3 neighbors' house... really missed those days where the kampung spirit is strong ;p

 

[zhihau]

... have they made SG a better *home* for our own citizens? ...

certainly, the lobe-sided policies would yield some damage and i agree and i advocate that Citizens must come first. it is not a question of why their policies are lobe-sided now, but formulating alternatives and suggesting feasible solutions to aid this ailing nation.

we don't need free loaders milking our Nation, especially when the free loaders would eventually head back to their own motherland, we need folks who would gladly contribute and of course we ain't asking them to contribute for free.

our Citizens should wake up now, they had better learn to start taking calculated risks, for they've been too prudent in their daily takings... question now is, how to gently arouse them from their slumber?

 

[scroobal]

just to share another account:

really missed those days where the kampung spirit is strong ;p

I know what you mean. I hope we can find a way to get that spirit back. In a way, we are a lucky lot.

 

[angry_one]

i was just having my cuppa at Parkway Parade earlier, and i see a colorful display of folks of all shapes and sizes... Koreans, Americans, and some Africans as well... a sincere smile and a nod, it is usually reciprocated...

I don't know what cuntry you're living in - the foreigners i meet are always contemptuous or rude. The ang mors may be polite but deep down they see themselves as superior to us. Not all of them, yes. The Koreans and Chinese are downright crass people. Sinkeeland can only attract 2nd-rate immigrants.

 

[zhihau]

... The ang mors may be polite but deep down they see themselves as superior to us ... The Koreans and Chinese are downright crass people ...

take a chill pill bro :p

 

[NgEjay]

our Citizens should wake up now, they had better learn to start taking calculated risks, for they've been too prudent in their daily takings... question now is, how to gently arouse them from their slumber?

We need to have good people taking the lead. Singaporeans need to see good people coming forward with initiative.

Taking the lead can mean joining an opposition party and starting groundwork, speaking up using all channels available, etc. What we need are articulate and presentable individuals coming forward and taking the plunge themselves.

The first ones taking the plunge will invariably be those who make the greatest sacrifices. Because in the initial stages, it is easier for the govt to clamp down on opposition. And also, it is easy for people to ridicule and cast aspersions on someone who dares step out of the *collective* comfort zone and do something different.

But this will be the ultimate test of leadership -- whether a person can persevere despite the odds, despite the heaps of disdain and skepticism dumped onto him/her by fellow Singaporeans who are still comfortable with their own comfort zone.

A true leader will be one who can endure the initial trials and tribulations, and eventually gain enough clout and social muscle to rally others to join his/her cause.

Singapore needs such people to come forward and take the initial plunge, although the initial plunge is *always* the hardest.

E-Jay

 

[neddy]

>>>Planning is done so that the National Psyche is not bruised. Their citizens are not treated in a secondary manner and their needs are met without turning society topsy turvy. The final result is that their national identity remains intact while they progress as a nation.<<<

This is where PAP failed miserably.

On the other hand, people talk about PRs not staying. Question would be, do they feel welcome in the first place? Moving a family to another country is a big pain. Was it a push factor or a pull factor?

I am ex-Sg.

One day, after looking at the stupid ministers talking rubbish at a serious meeting, I have enough. These MIW are just normal human beings, why do they deserve such high pay, Singaporeans have been hoodwink by the propaganda and the lies created by the entire political machinary consisting of the mass media to the police to the justice system.

The founder of Singapore has squandered its opportunity to create a Singaporean identity. It has basically destroyed the existing institutions and started a post-1965 Singapore on a clean sheet of paper and a series of social-altering campaigns.

What we have now is a people who are petty and paranoid. Looking at the postings, I realised how naive Singaporeans are when it comes to world matters.

LKY must have noticed the mistakes he made in making himself a nanny of Singaporeans. He created a society that allowed him to rule without opposition in return for a good life. He must have thought --- these people are no talent, they are just good at paper chase and doing textbook jobs and think the PAP owe them a living. He has to bring in FTs to create a diversity Singapore need to survive in the 21st century.

Living in a real country and working in its public sector, I see a big difference in the way Australia and Singapore work.

Singaporeans may want to think that they are better than the Aussies. In a way, yes, Singapore is richer per capita compared to Australia. But in terms of diversity of services to its people, SG is still third world. A SG public servant will find it hard to use his/her skills in a government department in Australia.

I do not see Singapore improving for the next 5 or 10 years. The society is holding back itself. This is the failure of the government, which is masked by the specticular economic progress from 1973-1994 and its luck during the 1997 asian financial crisis.

 

[zack123]

I am ex-Sg.

One day, after looking at the stupid ministers talking rubbish at a serious meeting, I have enough. These MIW are just normal human beings, why do they deserve such high pay, Singaporeans have been hoodwink by the propaganda and the lies created by the entire political machinary consisting of the mass media to the police to the justice system.

The founder of Singapore has squandered its opportunity to create a Singaporean identity. It has basically destroyed the existing institutions and started a post-1965 Singapore on a clean sheet of paper and a series of social-altering campaigns.

What we have now is a people who are petty and paranoid. Looking at the postings, I realised how naive Singaporeans are when it comes to world matters.

LKY must have noticed the mistakes he made in making himself a nanny of Singaporeans. He created a society that allowed him to rule without opposition in return for a good life. He must have thought --- these people are no talent, they are just good at paper chase and doing textbook jobs and think the PAP owe them a living. He has to bring in FTs to create a diversity Singapore need to survive in the 21st century.

Living in a real country and working in its public sector, I see a big difference in the way Australia and Singapore work.

Singaporeans may want to think that they are better than the Aussies. In a way, yes, Singapore is richer per capita compared to Australia. But in terms of diversity of services to its people, SG is still third world. A SG public servant will find it hard to use his/her skills in a government department in Australia.

I do not see Singapore improving for the next 5 or 10 years. The society is holding back itself. This is the failure of the government, which is masked by the specticular economic progress from 1973-1994 and its luck during the 1997 asian financial crisis.

Unfortunately for Singapore, those who think that they would make a difference decides to leave the country for greener pasture. In this case, when one decides to abscond our national duties in making Singapore a better place to live in with or without the Lees, one should just shut one's crap.

Yes the adopted country will be superior in one's sense as it fills one's dream of what living should be. However one should also give credit to those who stayed behind to fight our own dreams of a more civil society.

Belittling Sporeans as incompetent fools who can't fit living in a other country (especially Australia???) is surely a misnomer.

 

[zhihau]

... This is the failure of the government ...

ooo... did they make it in here???

 

[zhihau]

... We need to have good people taking the lead. Singaporeans need to see good people coming forward with initiative ... Singapore needs such people to come forward and take the initial plunge, although the initial plunge is *always* the hardest ...

bro, your words reminded me of our exchange a while back...