Shanmugam response to Dominique's death. WTF!

[PTADER]

Training of soldiers always carries a high risk of injury, no different from police or fireman training. SAF can implement all the safety measures they want and death will still inevitably occur. What SAF can do is minimise death as much as possible to the best of their ability.

Deaths have occured and will continue to occur, either through willful incidents, unforeseen accidents or unacceptable negligence.

The issue in this case is no longer about the death which has already occurred and cannot be remedied, he cannot be brought back to life. It is the deceitful actions that have arisen after the soldiers death that has caused public disquiet, the PR spins, the evasiveness, the dishonesty, the slithering about to evade liability and what must take the cake, that particularly disgraceful and sneaky attempt by BG Chan Wing Kai to put the blame on the dead soldier.

 

[Leongsam]

As matter of fact, there is a system in place where if the weather status hits or is forecasted to hit what is known as a “CAT-1” category (pointing to lightning threats as Singapore "has one of the highest occurrences of lightning activity in the world"), training has to be postponed or cancelled.

I am sure you will mock this. But it is based on the sound principle of training safety and keeping soldiers alive during training. This is so that they can be alive to fight in real operations for what they have been trained for.

And before you go on, once again this is for peace time training, not operations. I don't believe anyone will give a toss if lightning is striking every second in an actual operation.

Since Singapore has such a high occurrence of lightning strikes, I suggest that MINDEF conduct all training indoors in a building fully protected with lighting conductors.

We can't let our precious sons risk being BBQd.

If war breaks out we can get the Boys Brigade to fight for us instead.

 

[PTADER]

Since Singapore has such a high occurrence of lightning strikes, I suggest that MINDEF conduct all training indoors in a building fully protected with lighting conductors.

We can't let our precious sons risk being BBQd.

If war breaks out we can get the Boys Brigade to fight for us instead.

The Army of the World's "Superpower" has a similar, if not more elaborate safety measures for their equivalent "Cat-1" and other type categories for lightning. It's not just Singapore.

http://lightningsafety.com/nlsi_pls/US-Army-Lightning-Protection-Safety-Guide.pdf

U.S. Army Training and Doctrine Command Guide for Lightning Protective Measures for Personnel

"3.3.1.2 During Deployment – Activity Curtailment If lightning activity threatens during the deployment, a number of incremental steps to minimize personnel exposure are necessary.

1) Criteria: Lightning at 30 miles.

Actions:

a) Notify personnel of increased lightning hazard.
b) Prepare to cease unnecessary outdoor activity.
c) Have nonessential personnel find shelter.


2) Criteria: Lightning at 15 miles. Or thunder heard by personnel, but no lightning flash observed.

Actions:

a) Secure outdoor equipment.
b) Cease outdoor activity other than securing equipment and critical tasks.
c) Personnel not occupied due to activity curtailment should move to designated lightning shelter.


3) Criteria: Lightning at 8 miles or lightning observed.

Actions:

a) Immediate cessation of outdoor activity. Abandon efforts to secure equipment if not completed.
b) All personnel take cover in designated shelter. If no other shelter is available, personnel can move to hardtop automobiles for shelter. Personnel on foot should find low risk locations and disperse if no other options are available."

 

[Leongsam]

The Army of the World's "Superpower" has a similar, if not more elaborate safety measures for their equivalent "Cat-1" and other type categories for lightning. It's not just Singapore.

That's why the US has one of the most fucked up fighting forces in the whole world. America relies on remote technology to deal with the enemy. Whenever they send in personnel, the result is always a major disaster.

 

[PTADER]

That's why the US has one of the most fucked up fighting forces in the whole world. America relies on remote technology to deal with the enemy. Whenever they send in personnel, the result is always a major disaster.

Except for fictional Rambos in fictional armies in fictional movies, the sobering reality is that every military in the world have in place, Training Safety Regulations, for the training of their troops.

 

[Leongsam]

Except for fictional Rambos in fictional armies in fictional movies, the sobering reality is that every military in the world have in place, Training Safety Regulations, for the training of their troops.

Training safety is important. I never said it wasn't .

However if the population expect military training to be made safer than girl scout camp then something is seriously wrong.

 

[Papsmearer]

the trainers had breached safety regulations resulting in excessive build up of smoke to lethal levels. the TSR limit of 2 smoke grenades within defined space was developed because the SAF cannot afford to test every soldier for chemical allergies.

You are right!! Regulars in the SAF will tell you the TSR is written in blood. This is true. many aspects of the TSR were written from prior experience of the same situation. I know personally of at least one other smoke grenade incident resulting in a collapsed lung for an OCT. So, the TSR is not something that can be ignored regardless of the prior condition of the soldier.

 

[PTADER]

Training safety is important. I never said it wasn't .

However if the population expect military training to be made safer than girl scout camp then something is seriously wrong.

You are way off the mark. No one is arguing for training to be "made safer". The argument is on why training safety has not been observed which, because it has not been observed, has led to an unnecessary death.

If you now agree that "training safety" is important, what exactly is your beef about the SAF Training Safety Regulations which specify the conditions to be observed for safe training???

 

[halsey02]

If that Capt was GMS, i wonder how wud MID and all the MIW react?

They will place him under arrest with the RP & they will make him do hentap kaki first....then DB, then they will forget that, there is section in the law inherited from QEII that you can't sue the SAF personnel & allow the parents to sue him...if possible, they will 'crucify' him even there is no easter....

 

[frenchbriefs]

this shows the disappointing standards of excellence and care in the SAF,if any of these so called officers or professional soldiers took the organisation and their jobs seriously at all they would have apologized and resigned.what happened to the words honor,integrity and care for soldiers in the military?if u treat ur men's lives with such nonchalance,u expect them to place their trust and lives 100 percent in you in times of war?

SAF is nothing but a organisation of bureaucracy and hypocrisy,national security my ass.national security is probably at the bottom of their list of their concern,in times of war i probably expect sinkie civilians at the frontlines being used as meatshields and cannon fodder.

how much i wish ISIS will attack this country and expose these bunch of hypocrites cowards for the pussies they are,i bet half of the so called officers are only in it for the paychecks and will bail at the first sign of danger.

 

[Papsmearer]

Training safety is important. I never said it wasn't .

However if the population expect military training to be made safer than girl scout camp then something is seriously wrong.

The population is asking that the SAF follow the safety rules that it wrote for itself. Is that too hard for you to understand? They are not asking for NS to be a long stay at Club Med. Go and get a brain and come back here.

 

[Papsmearer]

this shows the disappointing standards of excellence and care in the SAF,if any of these so called officers or professional soldiers took the organisation and their jobs seriously at all they would have apologized and resigned.what happened to the words honor,integrity and care for soldiers in the military?if u treat ur men's lives with such nonchalance,u expect them to place their trust and lives 100 percent in you in times of war?

SAF is nothing but a organisation of bureaucracy and hypocrisy,national security my ass.national security is probably at the bottom of their list of their concern,in times of war i probably expect sinkie civilians at the frontlines being used as meatshields and cannon fodder.

how much i wish ISIS will attack this country and expose these bunch of hypocrites cowards for the pussies they are,i bet half of the so called officers are only in it for the paychecks and will bail at the first sign of danger.

Honour, integrity and the professionalism of the SAF was deliberately ended by Old Fart when his son Gay Loong was pushed thru the SAF as a scholar general. In a professional army with integrity and honour, no one's son got special treatment. Not George Bush's son GW, not Prince Charles in the RAF, not his sons in the British armed forces. Charles never got special treatment in the RAF or HM's Navy. He earned his fast jet wings just like the other pilots and was not sped up and fast tracked. When his brother Edward could not take it in the Royal Marines, he was washed out after one year of OCT there. Would such a thing happen for Gay Loong? The moment he got special treatment and fast tracking, followed by his brother and then a legion of Scholar Generals and Colonels, you have lost all semblance of professionalism in the SAF. After seeing that, then where is the honour and integrity in such an Army?

 

[yahoo55]

You are way off the mark. No one is arguing for training to be "made safer". The argument is on why training safety has not been observed which, because it has not been observed, has led to an unnecessary death.

If you now agree that "training safety" is important, what exactly is your beef about the SAF Training Safety Regulations which specify the conditions to be observed for safe training???

He's making a straw man argument just like the PAP defense minister. The issue is that the officers wilfully disobeyed a SAF training safety regulation and their negligence lead to a death of a NSF, but he's arguing other stuff. That's what PAP politicians do, confuse the issue in their "debates".

 

[enterprise2]

All of u missed the point! Sigh!
Mindef already admitted they r wrong, so no argument there. Public is outragedi by the light punishment and also the minuscule compensation. Also cannot use civil law to get redress. Let's keep to these points and Mindef got no leg to stand on. Light punishment and promotion?? Over a death! The laughable compensation .. Life is really cheap in the most expensive city in the world!

 

[Leongsam]

All of u missed the point! Sigh!
Mindef already admitted they r wrong, so no argument there. Public is outragedi by the light punishment and also the minuscule compensation. Also cannot use civil law to get redress. Let's keep to these points and Mindef got no leg to stand on. Light punishment and promotion?? Over a death! The laughable compensation .. Life is really cheap in the most expensive city in the world!

The punishment is appropriate because the death was caused by the soldier's undisclosed allergy and not a direct consequence of the trainer's actions.

How on earth would the trainers know that there is a defective soldier in their midst. Had the soldier been "excused smoke" by a medical board or doctor I am 100% positive the soldier would have been told to stay away from this particular training exercise.

I would like to commend MINDEF for being fair to those who have chosen the honorable career of defending their country. Instead of offering a sacrificial lamb to the baying mob, they have approached the whole issue in a calm and reasonable manner.

It is these sorts of episodes that heighten my respect for the Singapore government.

 

[enterprise2]

The punishment is appropriate because the death was caused by the soldier's undisclosed allergy and not a direct consequence of the trainer's actions.

Think if u r in that situation, we'll let go more than 100 smoke grenades!

 

[Narong Wongwan]

Shamu wants to talk big like Donald trump.....
He's basically saying fuck you to the dead boy's family.....
Well done you guys voted for this arsehole

 

[Leongsam]

Think if u r in that situation, we'll let go more than 100 smoke grenades!

If 100 grenades is what it takes to simulate real battle, I would be most happy to immerse myself in the thick cloud in order to be sure that when it comes to the real thing, I am both physically and mentally prepared to fight for my country.

 

[Narong Wongwan]

Shamugan: I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Dominique, and you curse the SAF. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know -- that Dominique's death, while tragic, probably saved lives; and my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives.

 

[Leongsam]

Shamu wants to talk big like Donald trump.....
He's basically saying fuck you to the dead boy's family.....
Well done you guys voted for this arsehole

I also say "fuck you" to the boy's family. Being grief stricken is not a license to exhibit irrational behavior. Where is their dignity?

I have known families who have made far bigger sacrifices and who have accepted the death of loved ones as being part and parcel of the passage of life.