Ptader, LTK, WP & Racism

[yellowarse]

Forget it man. This guy will keep on twisting your words. I've had it with him also.

Ok, dude. Leave it at that.

 

[billisnotathome]

When a person accuses someone he knows well of racism, he obviously has evidence of it.

Seriously bro. If I know somebody really well, we have a bitter fall out and I start calling him a fucking pedophile all of a sudden, it doesn't mean I actually have any evidence that he is. Especially if when I am called upon to produce said evidence the best I can muster is "I heard him say he likes fucking kids".

I have a friend who will not employ Indians because of certain traits he associates with them. I know him to be a racist. But I don't have black and white evidence.

The fact that his company doesn't employ Indians despite some of them being better qualified than the Chinese incumbents of the same job they applied for would be the evidence right? Are you trying to be funny or what?

 

[Fook Seng]

That's a joke.

You counter free speech with free speech.

Calling an infraction free speech is like saying that PAP is practising free speech by threatening to sue bloggers unless they remove their posts.

Then again, WP supporters have strange notions of free speech.

If you say non-WP supporters have the sole right to free speech, then your statement is right. Then it doesn't matter whether what you say is true or false, with that free speech you can say anything without having to produce proof. WP supporters can also choose to follow the example and spread lies without showing proof but instead of doing they infract, like what they do to trolls.

 

[Fook Seng]

How do you come to that conclusion? If there are more people joining WP from other parties or from minorities at the same time? Then how? One sparrow does not a summer make.

Just like TJS left SDP, would you say "see SDP got brain-drain, now left brain-dead"?

Yes and if that is proof that WP has a big problem and as a result losing people, then they would not have expanded and gained more ground like today.

 

[Fook Seng]

Racism is a belief which may or may not express itself in discriminatory action of some sort. The evidence is not like taking a snapshot of your wife in a Geylang brothel.

Example: if my friend tells me he thinks Indians are two-headed snakes, he's a racist. I don't have a tape recording to prove it. But I'll tell you he's a racist because I know him and I know his opinions.

Likewise someone who knows LKY well might say he's a racist but not have a tape recording to prove it. Is he wrong to air his opinion? Do you have to kill 6 million Jew to prove you're a racist?

Very easy to determine if you have a right to make this remark. Go to MSM, make this same statement with your name on it and see what the response is, instead of doing it in an anonymous forum.

 

[yellowarse]

The fact that his company doesn't employ Indians despite some of them being better qualified than the Chinese incumbents of the same job they applied for would be the evidence right? Are you trying to be funny or what?

He tells me in confidence he doesn't hire Indians. I don't have hard evidence. I only have his word. If he goes to court, he could always say that the Indians he interviewed were inferior to the Chinese ones.

In addition, he disparages Indians in our conversations. I don't have a tape recorder. I can't produce it in court. His word against mine.

But I know he's a racist. Not from hearsay, but from he says to me.

 

[billisnotathome]

I don't have a tape recorder.

Buy one for 30 dollars, talk to him about Indians and voila there's your fucking evidence. Continuing this is just a waste of fucking time, no offence.

 

[Fook Seng]

If you're talking about 'vague trail' then any number of facts might qualify, including the failure of WP to induct many capable minority candidates. The JBJ ouster. Or the Fazli and Sajeev resignations.

A man with Low's political shrewdness will not be so stupid as to leave a black and white trail. Rather evidence of racism would have to come from his inner circle who are privy to his thoughts, philosophy and worldview; cadres and CEC members who have worked closely with him; minorities who have suffered the brunt of racist discrimination. Why don't you ask these people?

I don't know the man; so I can't say whether he's racist or not. But when someone who knows him well enough says he's a racist, I'm not going to diss it right away. And PTader isn't the first guy to mention racism in regard to LTK. It's just notable because he's Chinese, and a member of the old guard.

Ever wonder, this constant harping accusation of racism, whether true or lie, could be the very reason why it is so difficult for them to recruit people from the minority. It doesn't help that some minorities feel that they deserve to be nominated when in fact they are not. Not every one is like Pritam Singh and a good leader has to take the hard decision to maximize party's chances.

In BE PE, for instance, LLL was chosen ahead of others considered better candidates than her. Hard decision here to select someone with the ground experience and can possibly just win the ward (with the risk of also failing in the mission) and leave other strong candidates to lead teams in future GRC. Party politics have gone beyond just thinking of individual interest. Party interest must come first and it cannot be compromised. So the really good cadets are those who can bide their time for their chance to represent the party in the interest of the party. Here you have a guy who set this as a guiding principle and has led his party with some success and that is because of this party first principle.

Anyway this Nantah episode is a very old story. Whatever sorrow people directly involved have would have expired by now. Today even non-Chinese educated, like myself, also feel that this has been overdone, with a whole generation, those who are in their late forties and early fifties poorer off as far as their mandarin proficiency is concerned. In this present time, when China has not only become a preferred place for investment but also a growing market, there is no Chinese chauvinism in realising this, just pure practicality, as will India also join China's party 25 years further down the road.

 

[Fook Seng]

Don't put words in my mouth. My words exactly:

"I don't know the man; so I can't say whether he's racist or not. But when someone who knows him well enough says he's a racist, I'm not going to diss it right away."

All I said is if PTader knows the man well, he's entitled to give his opinion without getting infracted by the WP mobsters here.

I never once said LTK is a racist, though I know people - mainly minorities - who say so.

We also know PTader left with great unhappiness. We cannot just accept one side of the story. That is why we demand proof. Without that we have to assume he is spreading lies or at least showing frustration after having to leave with animosity.

 

[SgParent]

Don't twist my words. That's dishonest.

It's like: "Yellowarse said Ah Low is a racist. But, billisnotathome, because I'm not acquainted with Ah Low, but yellowarse is, I can only say that yellowarse is entitled to his opinion. I myself do not know whether Ah Low is racist or not."


Which part don't you understand?

Why you so defensive? Again?

I made up that analogy while yours is what happened (though you switched the names).

Anyway what I'm trying to say is, when you go repeat something, you can't then excuse yourself from any consequence by claiming someone else told that to you. The fact that PTader's words cast doubt over Ah Low's character in your mind is already considered defamation. For you, without verify PTader's words, you then go spread it and make others have similar doubt is equally liable. So stop it.

And it's not just me. billisnotathome, Fook Seng, wwwabbit, etc, etc, are all of similar opinion.

 

[yellowarse]

The fact that PTader's words cast doubt over Ah Low's character in your mind is already considered defamation.

Come again? Having doubts in my mind is defamation? Sheesh ... it's Nazi-esque supporters like you that give WP a bad name. To begin with, I never even said I had doubts. I simply said I didn't know the man, not in a position to judge.

And when did I spread rumours? I simply said that WP supporters should not be infracting someone who knows LTK for a long time and airs his opinion about him. Just wonder, are you going to infract me if I say my ex-boss is a slave-driving bastard?

If this is the kind of democracy that WP supporters are angling for, I'll have none of it.

Anyway, as I've promised metalmickey, this will be my last reply to you on the subject.

 

[SgParent]

Come again? Having doubts in my mind is defamation? .... To begin with, I never even said I had doubts. I simply said I didn't know the man, not in a position to judge..

Ok I'll be generous and walk you through this.

You never suspected Ah Low is a racist => PTader made an unsubstantiated claim about Ah Low => You are not sure now => Ah Low's integrity, character is damaged => defamation.

Got it?

...Sheesh ... it's Nazi-esque supporters like you that give WP a bad name. ...

And when did I spread rumours? I simply said that WP supporters should not be infracting someone who knows LTK for a long time and airs his opinion about him. ....

If this is the kind of democracy that WP supporters are angling for, I'll have none of it.

You see? Because PTader made a baseless accusation on WP that planted a seed of doubt in your mind, now anyone who think otherwise is a WP IB.

That itself is another proof that Ah Low/WP standing has been damaged in your mind.

... airs his opinion about him. Just wonder, are you going to infract me if I say my ex-boss is a slave-driving bastard?

You still dun get it, do you?

Mixing "opinion" and "accusation" again. Either you are confused or in self denial or something worse.

Anyway, as I've promised metalmickey, this will be my last reply to you on the subject.

Not sure why you brought this up. Am I supposed to feel sad?

You can go ask/tell metalmickey the same.

 

[mojito]

I can't believe an unsubstantiated opinion garnered 4 pages worth of comments. People, I think you are all missing the point. It is LLL standing for elections in Ponggol East under the WP, not LTK. Why waste bandwidth discussing about LTK? Is WP a racist party? Is the WP candidate LLL racist? Let us know if you have anecdotal evidence which points to the conclusion ok?

We should instead focus on the by-election. LLL is contesting under the WP banner. How do you feel about the WP's parliamentary performance so far? Voters of Ponggol East SMC, this is my plea to you. 2016 is not that far off. This coming by-election in 2013, show the WP you are not happy with their parliamentary performance. Teach them a lesson they will never forget! Give them a black eye they will remember for the next 3 years! Let them feel the wrath of a people spurned by false messiahs. Make your vote count this coming election!

 

[billisnotathome]

I can't believe an unsubstantiated opinion garnered 4 pages worth of comments. People, I think you are all missing the point. It is LLL standing for elections in Ponggol East under the WP, not LTK. Why waste bandwidth discussing about LTK? Is WP a racist party? Is the WP candidate LLL racist? Let us know if you have anecdotal evidence which points to the conclusion ok?

We should instead focus on the by-election. LLL is contesting under the WP banner. How do you feel about the WP's parliamentary performance so far? Voters of Ponggol East SMC, this is my plea to you. 2016 is not that far off. This coming by-election in 2013, show the WP you are not happy with their parliamentary performance. Teach them a lesson they will never forget! Give them a black eye they will remember for the next 3 years! Let them feel the wrath of a people spurned by false messiahs. Make your vote count this coming election!

Yes, it's more important to teach the false messiahs a lesson and give the incumbent a resounding victory, so they can take that as justification to really take the gloves off and fuck this country up the shitter with impunity for the next 3 years eh?

One fucking despairs reading this site sometimes.

 

[mojito]

Yes, it's more important to teach the false messiahs a lesson and give the incumbent a resounding victory, so they can take that as justification to really take the gloves off and fuck this country up the shitter with impunity for the next 3 years eh?

One fucking despairs reading this site sometimes.

3 years is not a long wait. Plus the WP is going to lose anyway, so let's take the opportunity to kick some spurs into their hides.

 

[billisnotathome]

3 years is not a long wait. Plus the WP is going to lose anyway, so let's take the opportunity to kick some spurs into their hides.

Jesus wept.

 

[Fook Seng]

I can't believe an unsubstantiated opinion garnered 4 pages worth of comments. People, I think you are all missing the point. It is LLL standing for elections in Ponggol East under the WP, not LTK. Why waste bandwidth discussing about LTK? Is WP a racist party? Is the WP candidate LLL racist? Let us know if you have anecdotal evidence which points to the conclusion ok?

We should instead focus on the by-election. LLL is contesting under the WP banner. How do you feel about the WP's parliamentary performance so far? Voters of Ponggol East SMC, this is my plea to you. 2016 is not that far off. This coming by-election in 2013, show the WP you are not happy with their parliamentary performance. Teach them a lesson they will never forget! Give them a black eye they will remember for the next 3 years! Let them feel the wrath of a people spurned by false messiahs. Make your vote count this coming election!

So you are very happy with PAP's performance to want them win the seat? Are you PAP IB or pseudo-opposition supporter?

 

[Fook Seng]

3 years is not a long wait. Plus the WP is going to lose anyway, so let's take the opportunity to kick some spurs into their hides.

If that is the case why not wait another 50 years?

 

[mojito]

So you are very happy with PAP's performance to want them win the seat? Are you PAP IB or pseudo-opposition supporter?

Very happy? Non. Appeased? Oui! Voters contented with the policy measures implemented by the PAP over the last 6 months would adopt a wait and see approach to see if it pans out. Since the WP offers nothing new to the table, while the PAP have so much more to offer. If they backpedal on the issues of the day, we can always vote the WP then. They are not going to disappear! They will still be there for us to register our unhappiness for the ruling government. That is why the PAP allowed WP to exist. Surely you are not blind to see that, are you?

I could ask you the same question myself. Are you very happy with the WP's performance?

 

[PTADER]

The issue in the fall out with JBJ in WP cannot to attributed to intrigues of LTK but a direct result of JBJ failing as an editor and leader and allowing one moron to bring down an entire party with a article written in Tamil. The fact that it was an Indian cultural group that sued and won made it even worse. The irony is that this Indian group showed mercy to WP by withdrawing the writ and only going after JBJ and the moron. Someone had to step in and most capable people would have done just that. In this case LTK did. So lets not ignore the true reasons.

The article appeared in The Hammer in August 1995 on the first Tamil Language Week.

PAP's Jayakumar, Shanmugam, Vasoo, Sinnakaruppan and Chadra Das sued in 1996.

Contrary to Low's convenient and heroic "I-save-the-party" narrative, his whispering campaigns and his backstabbing of JBJ predated the 1995 article and the 1996 lawsuit. His one-man campaign to destabiise the leadership of JBJ, his whispering campaigns and his badmouthing started when JBJ was in prison in 1986. That's 9 years before the article and 10 years before the lawsuit.

Low was using the then mullticulturalist WP which was committed to multiculturalism as a Trojan Horse and a convenient cover to pursue his chauvinistic agenda.