PAP's New Strategy - will it work?

[SgParent]

bro,
first rid the PAP of their 2/3 majority in the Parliament :p:p:p

Finally someone else who appreciates the fact that we need competition that always, always benefits the consumers.

Because once the monopoly is no more, then we will have competition to talk about.

 

[zhihau]

Because once the monopoly is no more, then we will have competition to talk about.

diversity is the driving force for life itself, there had been one too many cases of political incest in our local scene. as any life form would, we are seeing the negative impacts now. systemic failures in the long run will spell the end not only for the PAP, but ultimately Singapore.

 

[captainxerox]

Finally someone else who appreciates the fact that we need competition that always, always benefits the consumers.

Because once the monopoly is no more, then we will have competition to talk about.

competition and choices are important. as long as people can discern politicians who are populist, scare-mongering or just fork tongue.

 

[zhihau]

In fact the salary review was a farce

let's admit it, bro, the crux of the problem wasn't addressed at all, only perception of the public was managed.

 

[Dreamer1]

It is time for dear Dr Tan Cheng Bock to wake up,the choice is clear to the new Singaporeans-either PAP change-(yesterday or NOW) or be sacked,there is absolutely no in between, hope he makes the right choice.

 

[aurvandil]

Heard a bit of gossip which might explain the decision to have a full timer in West Coast GRC. Below is the listing of who is in West Coast GRC. I am hearing that it is likely that there will be a "surprise" Lim Boon Heng type event in West Coast GRC.

Arthur Jen Fong
S Iswaran
Lim Hng Kiang
Foo Mee Har
Lawrance Wong Shyun Tsai

Now West Coast GRC where Foo Mee Har is is considered PAP territory to the core having had walk-overs in the past and with poor showing by RP and KJ in the last GE. Does the Govt know something about West Coast. Have their listening posts picked up signals of a new opposition party perhaps with credible professionals. As this is Tan Cheng Bock's hunting ground after Ayer Rajah was dismantled as an SMc, is the man behind something. Remember when he was MP for Ayer Rajah, his winning margin was impressive . Did he retire recently to do something more full time.

 

[Thick Face Black Heart]

I suspect that PAP and the PM has resigned to the fact that more seats will be lost but it won't be one third. It will be a question of accommodation. I had already mentioned that sometime back that they are not prepared to retake Aljunied with quality candidates.

Interesting point. That raises the natural question -- why is the PAP so unwilling to change if it knows that it is losing ground, votes and possibly seats fast? The standard response from the pro PAP camp (that they're in it for the long term good of SG) doesn't gel, doesn't make any sense whatsoever, utter non-sequitur. The effects of bad policies and decades of unmitigated arrogance is plain & obvious, only a pro PAP person would choose to be blind to it.

Why the apology 2 days before the polls, all the big upheavals in getting people to be fuller time MPs, and yet the great unwillingness to see the need to overhaul the policies themselves?

 

[watchman8]

Interesting point. That raises the natural question -- why is the PAP so unwilling to change if it knows that it is losing ground, votes and possibly seats fast? The standard response from the pro PAP camp (that they're in it for the long term good of SG) doesn't gel, doesn't make any sense whatsoever, utter non-sequitur. The effects of bad policies and decades of unmitigated arrogance is plain & obvious, only a pro PAP person would choose to be blind to it.

Why the apology 2 days before the polls, all the big upheavals in getting people to be fuller time MPs, and yet the great unwillingness to see the need to overhaul the policies themselves?

A big influence is probably from within PAP, where most of their key players and supporters are now very dependent on the pro FW policies to continue making outsized profits. They know that the opposition will not be ready for at least another decade or so, hence might as well make hay while the sun still shines? Afterall, the old man's attitude that sinkieland probably would not prosper forever has rubbed off many.

Thereafter, PAP will be positioned as the Conservative party, and continue to be a big player in Singapore politics, if sinkieland is worth the effort at that time.

 

[metalmickey]

Which part of "competition that always, always benefits the consumers" do you not understand?

How do you know the Oppo do not have any solutions? Because the Braddell Road Brothel printed so? Or your White Scum MP said so?

All you need to know now is, stick with the same White Scums and you will only get the same screwing like in the past decades.

The competition does not always always benefit the consumers. You can see with your own eyes what is happening in America. Nobody gets anything done in parliament because there is too much competition. Nobody wants to budge. Or even if there is competition, it is competition in the form of "I'll cut your taxes" or "I'll spend more". Either way, the budget gets fucked. That's why the US is in a shithole of debt. So no, you are not right. Competition is not always a good thing.

Yes it is true that monopoly got us where we are today. But removing that monopoly is not good enough.

I don't know if the oppo does not have any solutions. But when I see their solutions, I will know that they have solutions. They don't have anything to hide. Their solutions can be scrutinised. Unfortunately they will be criticised unfairly - doesn't matter. I want to see them. To me, seeing them is better than not seeing them. What do they have to hide? If I don't see a grand plan, either they are hiding it, which is bad, or they don't have one, which is equally bad. Why is it so difficult?

This is not an either or. You don't have to say either we cut the PAP down to size, or we scrutinise the opposition. If you were to ask me, I want both. I don't want to have to choose. What we have so far, I think they can tell us that things are going from bad to worse. The solutions? In a real democracy, people are always talking about solutions. In the US elections, Obama was talking about concrete solutions, Romney was talking cock. So Romney won. Democracy should be a debate about policy making not m&d slinging. People talk about the real business of government. We don't talk about politics, like who's seeing who, who's getting paid too much. We want to see good policies, and debate the merits of those policies.

We are not going to be hands off about kicking out the PAP. But if we vote in opposition, are we going to be hands off about them either? Are they going to get a free pass because we like them more? Are we going to be saying to them, "you're the smart guys, we sit back and relax, you do all the thinking for us".

I want the opposition to start thinking about the big issues. Not small small things like "MRT is too crowded" or "water is not going down the drains properly" or "too many stinky foreigners". Issues that even your grandmother can understand. But the real big issues like what to do with GIC / Temasek. How to run an economy. What is economic competition. Foreign policy. Which sectors to back. Constitutional amendment. Freedom of Information act. All your problems can basically be solved with money. But where is the money going to come from? I've yet to hear the answer to that one. Cut a multimillion dollar salary - OK, you feel damn song, you have $1M more to play with. Do you realise that the gahment just pumped $1B into SBS / SMRT for buses? So - very easy. You do the math - where is the rest of the $999M going to come from?

I don't want the opposition to start getting their shit together only after entering parliament, that's like looking for the bathroom when the liquid is pouring down your legs.

What if they are lousy solutions? What if we put in another party who is equally fucked up as PAP? Then it's lagi worse, now we have to get rid of two fucked up parties. Then where's your competition going to come from? No thanks man!!! Getting rid of one fucked up party is difficult enough as it is!

Or what if one party gets 30 seats, and perform so badly that PAP wins everything back in the next election cycle? How much time have we wasted? What if the opposition gets into a situation that they're not ready for?

 

[metalmickey]

Interesting point. That raises the natural question -- why is the PAP so unwilling to change if it knows that it is losing ground, votes and possibly seats fast? The standard response from the pro PAP camp (that they're in it for the long term good of SG) doesn't gel, doesn't make any sense whatsoever, utter non-sequitur. The effects of bad policies and decades of unmitigated arrogance is plain & obvious, only a pro PAP person would choose to be blind to it.

Why the apology 2 days before the polls, all the big upheavals in getting people to be fuller time MPs, and yet the great unwillingness to see the need to overhaul the policies themselves?

Well that's why I choose to be hard on the opposition. The PAP may have solutions, but probably not. Maybe their patronage system is too entrenched, they can't do shit. Maybe they know what to do, but they just can't see themselves doing it.

The other possibility is probably something that hasn't occurred to many of you. The government is not as powerful as you think it is. It was very very powerful in the 70s and 80s. Not now. All that talk about "we can't do this because if we do this the MNCs will screw our backsides and leave Singapore". Maybe it is true. Maybe they are helpless. In that case, why are we talking about fucking the government instead of fucking the MNCs?

You can talk about competition all you want, but right now you already have the ability to compete for ideas. I am still waiting to see the competition for real ideas take place. Things do not have to be said inside of parliament in order to count. Every policy they make, you can make another policy to counterpropose. Don't wait until you get into parliament to do that. All that talk about being scared that they "steal your ideas" is total bullshit. First, they are smart enough that they don't need to steal your ideas.

 

[Thick Face Black Heart]

Don't jump so many steps ahead and confuse all the issues. Gridlocked parliament totally non-sequitur at this stage. You haven't acknowledged once in all your posts that the most pressing, urgent, and desperate need is to break one party dominance.

There is filth and waste in every democracy but surely you can't possibly think that a single party holding on to 93% of the goddamn seats is healthier than all of the alternatives.

The opposition has solutions if you read their various press releases and manifestos. The solutions is not what will get the votes though. That's not how politics in SG works. You and I want to see solutions. The voters don't. They want to see people connecting with them in the heartlands. You want deeper solutions, you need to have ministerial resources. As I said when LKY got into power did he even have one single day of British admiin service experience.

The competition does not always always benefit the consumers. You can see with your own eyes what is happening in America. Nobody gets anything done in parliament because there is too much competition. Nobody wants to budge. Or even if there is competition, it is competition in the form of "I'll cut your taxes" or "I'll spend more". Either way, the budget gets fucked. That's why the US is in a shithole of debt. So no, you are not right. Competition is not always a good thing.

Yes it is true that monopoly got us where we are today. But removing that monopoly is not good enough.

I don't know if the oppo does not have any solutions. But when I see their solutions, I will know that they have solutions. They don't have anything to hide. Their solutions can be scrutinised. Unfortunately they will be criticised unfairly - doesn't matter. I want to see them. To me, seeing them is better than not seeing them. What do they have to hide? If I don't see a grand plan, either they are hiding it, which is bad, or they don't have one, which is equally bad. Why is it so difficult?

 

[metalmickey]

I'll say again. I want both tracks. We want to kick out the PAP, and we want to see with our eyes wide open what we're voting in. Otherwise it'll just be like China welcoming the communist party with open arms after they kicked out the nationalists. The communists won the hearts and minds of the people. And we know how that went.

I want both tracks because also I am not happy with the people of Singapore for the reasons that you mentioned. They are sheep. They used to be pro-PAP sheep, now they are anti-PAP sheep. Either way they are sheep. We have competition for ideas. People are starting to debate and think. The opposition is starting to get more sophisticated - at least I hope they are because in the last half year since by-elections most of the news is coming from PAP. Both the people and the opposition have a long way to go. If the opposition talks about ideas and policy, how is this going to retard their progress? It's going to make them less electable if they actually have substance? This is not either or.

If we do not have transparency in opposition ranks today, we will not have it when they come into power. They'll just be like New Labour, sweep everybody off their feet, and not making the country better. If you say, the ends justify the means, important thing is that we are the right people, the important thing is to get the right people into power, that is exactly the same thing the PAP has said to us over the years.

Ministerial resources - speaking of that I also want the civil servants, the former civil servants to either speak up, or supply clandestine aid to the opposition.

 

[metalmickey]

As I said when LKY got into power did he even have one single day of British admiin service experience.

LKY had plenty of meetings at his home. (Remember when TJS said that he was going to set up a policy discussion group? there was a distinct echo of that.) He had a bunch of friends, they talked politics all the time. He articulated what he wanted while in parliament as the leader of the opposition. I'm going to kick out corruption. I'm going to join hands with the communists (well he didn't exactly do that) I'm going to build this, I'm going to build that. Colonial internal security laws? He articulated that in parliament too, although we know that he was a little hypocritical about it.

Let's face it, the PAP were all policy wonks at that time. They were highly educated, went to Cambridge / LSE whatever. They had heads full of ideas. It wasn't only about the gut feeling.

 

[scroobal]

Bro, you really need to calm down.

Why do think that one senior cabinet minister and 2 Ministers of States in one GRC lost in 2011. Are the people in Aljunied mad? Maybe they are not as smart or intelligent. Maybe they do not understand the consequences of their action.

Why are all the first world countries without exception not dominated by a single party in Parliament. Maybe they did not have the good fortune of having the PAP?

I don't want the opposition to start getting their shit together only after entering parliament, that's like looking for the bathroom when the liquid is pouring down your legs.

What if they are lousy solutions? What if we put in another party who is equally fucked up as PAP? Then it's lagi worse, now we have to get rid of two fucked up parties. Then where's your competition going to come from? No thanks man!!! Getting rid of one fucked up party is difficult enough as it is!

Or what if one party gets 30 seats, and perform so badly that PAP wins everything back in the next election cycle? How much time have we wasted? What if the opposition gets into a situation that they're not ready for?

 

[wikiphile]

Bro, you really need to calm down.

Why do think that one senior cabinet minister and 2 Ministers of States in one GRC lost in 2011. Are the people in Aljunied mad? Maybe they are not as smart or intelligent. Maybe they do not understand the consequences of their action.

Why are all the first world countries without exception not dominated by a single party in Parliament. Maybe they did not have the good fortune of having the PAP?

It must be the water that the residents in Aljunied GRC drank, 72,829 of us despite loving PAP to the fullest somehow were affected by the opposition malaise and voted in an opposition party. We shall not make the same mistake again and just stick to the WP in 2016 as repentance for kicking out a highly qualified PAP team. I believe we deserved to be stuck with a highly unqualified team till all of us breath our last

 

[watchman8]

It must be the water that the residents in Aljunied GRC drank, 72,829 of us despite loving PAP to the fullest somehow were affected by the opposition malaise and voted in an opposition party. We shall not make the same mistake again and just stick to the WP in 2016 as repentance for kicking out a highly qualified PAP team. I believe we deserved to be stuck with a highly unqualified team till all of us breath our last

It's bedok reservoir. No wonder so many people committed suicide there too.

Luckily Ong Ye Kung did not win. Look at the mess he left behind in smrt. NTUC big wig some more. Pui! So much for PAP talent.

 

[zhihau]

I believe we deserved to be stuck with a highly unqualified team till all of us breath our last

me is proud to be a part of the mad folks who voted the PAP out of Aljunied GRC, me shall continue to keep them out

 

[metalmickey]

Bro, you really need to calm down.

Why do think that one senior cabinet minister and 2 Ministers of States in one GRC lost in 2011. Are the people in Aljunied mad? Maybe they are not as smart or intelligent. Maybe they do not understand the consequences of their action.

Why are all the first world countries without exception not dominated by a single party in Parliament. Maybe they did not have the good fortune of having the PAP?

One cycle, two cycles, I think we should give the opposition a free pass. They deserve a few free passes to bootstrap themselves. What happened at Aljunied was correct. Pritam Singh, Chen Show Mao, Sylvia Lim had good campaigns. Except that senior cabinet minister should not have been the one to go, he was easily the least bad egg in the cabinet. Maybe this is more evidence that they're losing their grip, except that the alternative of moving George Yeo away would have been seen as raising a white flag.

You can give the opposition up to 20 seats in parliament without caring too much about their quality, because it doesn't really matter - life goes on as before. It's like somebody in the supermarket gives you a free sample of brand Y when you're a brand X customer. There is no downside. After that, the quality of the opposition will matter. If we don't see more quality from the worker's party after we've given them enough chances, let's try somebody else. I know that it's hard for them but they must realise that there is a race going on. I hope that I'm not too impatient or negative. Whatever we achieved in 2011 could have been achieved back in 1997.

My feeling is that Aljunied was about two things: giving them a real shot at things, and seeing what they're made of. We are right now in the "seeing what they're made of" stage. This is crucial, it is equivalent to the time 20 years ago when we had 3 SDP people and 1 WP person in parliament.

Also you might think that Japan is not a first world country? Japan was dominated by LDP for very long until quite recently.

The PAP ruled for many many years, and why? Because they were ruling over sheep. We thought, well they had the vision, we'll sit back and let them take care of things. In certain respects, we had the PAP more or less because we deserved them. The real answer to the question, "what do I want for Singapore" is not "I want somebody else to be my leader so that I can be a sheep under that somebody else". It sounds more like, "we'll restructure our economy so that we can incentivise blah blah blah behaviour blah blah blah". So many people today are as educated as LKY was back in the day. There is very little excuse.

Yes, voting out your masters is a sign that you are not a sheep but that doesn't go far enough.

 

[mojito]

I'll say again. I want both tracks. We want to kick out the PAP, and we want to see with our eyes wide open what we're voting in.

Yes I see it now. It is clear you are the one who will make a difference! Please stand for elections in 2016 so that these opposition neophytes can learn how to wrestle with the PAP machinery.

 

[wikiphile]

One cycle, two cycles, I think we should give the opposition a free pass. .

I was beginning to enjoy your debates as it keep this forum healthy until you kept insinuating that the people of Aljunied who voted in the WP did this out of spite. I voted for them in 06 and 11 because i want a change in how things are being runned and not because i am not a sheep. What exactly is your message for us here