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PAP vs WP's AHPETC Thread
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Re: WP makes PAP Minister looks like a fool
Agree with Uncle GD.. This CB Kia Lawrence wanted to score goals for PAP instead he now finds himself scoring own goals for his party.. Excellent rebuttal by Miss Sylvia Lim..
After this latest statement from her, I expect CB Kia Lawrence to do a follow up on this issue by further sprouting wild allegations against the AHPETC to make himself look good after being made a fool..
Agree with Uncle GD.. This CB Kia Lawrence wanted to score goals for PAP instead he now finds himself scoring own goals for his party.. Excellent rebuttal by Miss Sylvia Lim..
After this latest statement from her, I expect CB Kia Lawrence to do a follow up on this issue by further sprouting wild allegations against the AHPETC to make himself look good after being made a fool..
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Lawrence Wong & Desmond Lee should also ask for PAP TCs to be probed!
The past weeks have seen relentless ‘assaults’ on the so-called ‘mismanagement’ of the WP-run town councils (AHPETC) through the mainstream media by PAP Ministers and MPs alike. A recent one was by an ex-Minister Mr Lim Boon Heng, whilst attending a People’s Association (PA) grassroots event celebrating senior citizens in the Aljunied cluster. Then we have Minister of State for National Development Desmond Lee accusing the discourse in social media by concerned Singaporeans, as “friends, sympathisers and proxies of Workers Party (WP)” that are spreading falsehoods and half-truths online.
Much has been debated on the above issues and most of the pertinent issues have been covered by the many more learned writers from social media, and I will not expound on it. Rather I would like to bring readers back to the saga of PAP-run town councils that were left red-faced in their encounters with Lehman Brothers.
A total of 8 PAP-run Town Councils had invested in Lehman Brothers-related products. Besides the two key players, Holland-Bukit Panjang Town Council and Pasir Ris-Punggol Town Council, with $8 millions and $4 millions losses respectively, the other 6 TCs were: Aljunied, Ang Mo Kio-Yio Chu Kang, Hong Kah, Marine Parade, Tampines and Tanjong Pagar, which have an estimated combined loss of $4 millions.
At that time, none of the PAP MPs or mainstream media showed the same vigour and enthusiasm to pursue the cause of the losses of PAP Town Council’s fund during the Lehman Brothers saga. The affected Town Councils were able to wriggle out with so-called explanations in the form of letter addressed to its residents.
Nonetheless, comparing the letters issued by the Bishan-Toa Payoh Town Council that was unscathed in the saga and the two other main players namely, Pasir Ris-Punggol and Holland-Bt Panjang Town Councils that were ravaged by Lehman-linked financial products, some interesting facts are revealed as follows.....http://www.tremeritus.com/2014/12/11/pap-tcs-should-also-be-probed-for-managing-its-investments/
The past weeks have seen relentless ‘assaults’ on the so-called ‘mismanagement’ of the WP-run town councils (AHPETC) through the mainstream media by PAP Ministers and MPs alike. A recent one was by an ex-Minister Mr Lim Boon Heng, whilst attending a People’s Association (PA) grassroots event celebrating senior citizens in the Aljunied cluster. Then we have Minister of State for National Development Desmond Lee accusing the discourse in social media by concerned Singaporeans, as “friends, sympathisers and proxies of Workers Party (WP)” that are spreading falsehoods and half-truths online.
Much has been debated on the above issues and most of the pertinent issues have been covered by the many more learned writers from social media, and I will not expound on it. Rather I would like to bring readers back to the saga of PAP-run town councils that were left red-faced in their encounters with Lehman Brothers.
A total of 8 PAP-run Town Councils had invested in Lehman Brothers-related products. Besides the two key players, Holland-Bukit Panjang Town Council and Pasir Ris-Punggol Town Council, with $8 millions and $4 millions losses respectively, the other 6 TCs were: Aljunied, Ang Mo Kio-Yio Chu Kang, Hong Kah, Marine Parade, Tampines and Tanjong Pagar, which have an estimated combined loss of $4 millions.
At that time, none of the PAP MPs or mainstream media showed the same vigour and enthusiasm to pursue the cause of the losses of PAP Town Council’s fund during the Lehman Brothers saga. The affected Town Councils were able to wriggle out with so-called explanations in the form of letter addressed to its residents.
Nonetheless, comparing the letters issued by the Bishan-Toa Payoh Town Council that was unscathed in the saga and the two other main players namely, Pasir Ris-Punggol and Holland-Bt Panjang Town Councils that were ravaged by Lehman-linked financial products, some interesting facts are revealed as follows.....http://www.tremeritus.com/2014/12/11/pap-tcs-should-also-be-probed-for-managing-its-investments/
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Desmond Lee dismisses Sylvia Lim's 'series of excuses' on AHPETC
SINGAPORE: Minister of State for National Development Desmond Lee has rebutted the explanation by Workers' Party (WP) Chairman Sylvia Lim's on why the Aljunied-Hougang-Punggol East Town Council (AHPETC) has not sent its service and conservancy charges (S&CC) arrears report to his ministry for the past 18 months.
In a statement issued on Thursday (Dec 11), Mr Lee said the "series of excuses calls into question not only AHPETC's local competence, but also the WP leaders' integrity and national reputation".
Just the day before, Ms Lim had said the town council had explained to the Ministry of National Development (MND) that it had challenges in submitting arrears data in MND's format from mid-last year.
That same day, Minister for Culture, Community and Youth Lawrence Wong had said residents "deserve to know that their money is being properly managed and spent" in an op-ed in the Straits Times, and said the opposition-run town council's silence on its financial situation suggests "bigger problems lurking".
Minister of State Desmond Lee's response to Ms Lim is reproduced below.
"Ms Sylvia Lim said that her TC's inability over the past 18 months (since May 2013) to report its S&CC arrears was because of MND's reporting format. But this cannot be so.
The MND reporting format is not new. It has been in use for many years. All TCs have had no problem complying with it, including Mr Low Thia Khiang's Hougang TC. AHPETC itself was able to submit its arrears reports for nearly two years, until shocking arrears rate of 30% among HDB residents and 50% among commercial tenants cropped up. It then stopped its reporting abruptly.
What is important here is not just AHPETC's failure to submit required information on S&CC arrears - or other information for that matter. For it has also failed to submit its audited accounts for presentation to Parliament on time for three years in a row, or every year since the Workers' Party took over the running of the TC after GE 2011; and it has failed to submit other required reports to MND.
What is important is AHPETC's lack of transparency and Ms Lim's and her fellow MPs' failure to be accountable. They have yet to explain why their arrears are so high or disclose what their latest arrears rate is.
Ms Sylvia Lim herself has acknowledged that their high arrears rate was a matter of concern. In her responses to the Town Council Management Reports, she has assured both MND and the public that she would be looking into the problem. That was in 2012, and again in 2013. But her actions have not matched her words. When pressed for answers, she repeatedly says she will answer in "due course".
She must have the information MND and her residents are seeking. If AHPETC doesn't know who among its residents and tenants are in arrears, how can it be sending lawyers' letters of demand to them, as Ms Lim now tells us it has been doing. And if she does have such information, why can't she answer these two questions: Why are your arrears so high -- anywhere from 3 times to 30 times the national average? And what are your latest arrears?
But as her statement yesterday suggests, she sees no need to reply to such questions, and avoids providing the straightforward answers that she surely should be able to give.
Running the Town Council properly is the responsibility of the Workers' Party's elected Members of Parliament. Instead of answering important questions on the Town Council, they have sought to blame others. Hence, they say their failure was due to the MND reporting format. Then they blame their own software. Then they say it was the AGO's or their own Auditors' fault because they were busy having to entertain them. And as each new excuse is shown to be untrue, they have put forward new excuses.
Just last week, when reminded again by MND to submit the latest arrears report, Ms How Weng Fan, AHPETC's General Manager, replied to say that the reason why they have not been able to submit their arrears report was because they were no longer on the AIM system! But the AIM system had come to an end 19 months before AHPETC stopped submitting its monthly reports. Moreover, WP was able to submit its returns in Hougang for years since 2008 and for two years in AHPETC, without the AIM software.
This series of excuses calls into question not only AHPETC's local competence, but also the WP leaders' integrity and national reputation. Ms Sylvia Lim in her statement yesterday put the responsibility on the Government and the AGO to establish AHPETC's true state of affairs. This is a remarkable proposition: The elected MPs of Aljunied, Hougang and Punggol East, who pride themselves on checking the Government, are now relying on the Government to check them, instead of taking responsibility themselves for accounting to the public what they have done or have not done."
MND also released the following fact sheet on The Workers' Party responses on the issue of AHPETC's arrears reports.
Work in Progress: Workers' Party's Explanations of Why AHPETC Stopped Submitting Arrears Reports
"It is AGO's fault"
Lianhe Zaobao report on Nov 6 referring to WP Chief Low Thia Khiang: "He reiterated that he was not sure why the TC did not submit the relevant financial information to MND, but he guessed it could be because the TC needed to handle the AGO audit, and therefore did not have time to organise the information to give to MND".
Straits Times report on Nov 7 quoting Png Eng Huat : "From May last year, the council also stopped sending its monthly S&CC arrears report to the ministry despite reminders. Asked why, he said it had "prioritised resources for the Auditor-General's Office (AGO) audit"".
Lianhe Zaobao report quoting Ms Sylvia Lim on Nov 11: "The AHPETC has not been submitting its monthly S&CC arrears report after April last year, and also did not submit its FY13 financial statements and self-declared corporate governance checklist. The town council chairperson Sylvia Lim attributed these to the Auditor-General's audit over the past few months delaying the town council's internal audit workflow."
MND's response: AHPETC stopped submitting the monthly S&CC arrears reports from May 2013, 10 months before the AGO audit even began.
"It is the press' fault"
Ms Sylvia Lim in a media release on Dec 10: "When the mass media interviewed me on 10 November 2014 on the MND's Town Council Management Review (TCMR) results for Financial Year 2013, I was asked about the circumstances leading to AHPETC's non-submission of two sets of documents - the TC's audited financial statements for FY 13 as well as the arrears reports. I had told the media that the audit for FY 13 could not reasonably commence while the Auditor-General's Office (AGO) special audit was still in progress; as for the arrears reports, I told them that the finance team had been tied up with audits by our commercial auditors for FY 12 and then by the AGO.
Unfortunately, my responses to the two matters were conflated in certain media reports. At no time did I say that focusing on the AGO audit was the sole cause of the delay in submission of the arrears data to MND. In any case, MND should have known this from my earlier correspondence."
MND's response: Workers' Party MPs didn't offer Excuse 1 only once. They offered it on three separate occasions.
"It is MND's fault"
Ms Lim in a media statement on Dec 10: "Minister Wong may have not known that the TC had explained to MND its challenge in submitting arrears data in MND's format from mid-2013. I had explained that while the IT system being used at AHPETC could churn out arrears reports, manual counting and sorting was required to get the information into the format required by the MND. I had also informed MND that AHPETC had requested its software developers to enhance the system to churn out the reports in the required format, but this was work in progress. MND had been informed that AHPETC's Finance Team and its software developers had been involved in (two consecutive) audits, first by the TC's own auditors (commencing mid 2013) and then by the Auditor-General (commencing March 2014), and that this had led to a deferment of reporting requests, including MND's request for arrears data in its prescribed format. I had concurrently offered to submit to MND the arrears data the TC had as it was, but this was rejected by MND.
MND's response: The monthly S&CC arrears report template is a simple table, stating how many households owe S&CC and for how long. It has been used by all TCs -- including Hougang TC since 2008 when it was managed by the Workers' Party and the same General Manager, Ms How Weng Fan. It was also used by AHPETC itself till April 2013, when it stopped abruptly.
Also, in addition to blaming AGO for its own tardiness in 2014, Ms Lim now also blames AHPETC's own auditors for its own tardiness in 2013. However, AHPETC was audited by the same auditor, Foo Kon Tan Grant Thornton, in 2012. That did not prevent the TC from submitting its monthly S&CC arrears report until April 2013.
"It is the PAP's fault"
AHPETC General Manager How Weng Fan's reply to HDB TC Secretariat on Dec 3: "The Town Council's financial system that could generate the arrears report that HDB wants was terminated by the PAP-owned company, Action Information Management to whom the former Aljunied Town Council sold the system to. The arrears report that could be generated was terminated with the termination by AIM."
MND's response: AHPETC had been able to continue submitting its monthly S&CC arrears reports for 19 months after it had stopped using the AIM Town Council Management System. On Dec 14, 2012, the AHPETC stated publicly that it had "moved on to upscale and develop the Financial System which was in use at the former Hougang SMC". The Hougang Town Council was also able to submit its monthly S&CC arrears reports from April 2008 until it was merged with Aljunied, without the aid of AIM. Thereafter, AHPETC itself was able to do the same from August 2011 to April 2013.
- CNA/ly
SINGAPORE: Minister of State for National Development Desmond Lee has rebutted the explanation by Workers' Party (WP) Chairman Sylvia Lim's on why the Aljunied-Hougang-Punggol East Town Council (AHPETC) has not sent its service and conservancy charges (S&CC) arrears report to his ministry for the past 18 months.
In a statement issued on Thursday (Dec 11), Mr Lee said the "series of excuses calls into question not only AHPETC's local competence, but also the WP leaders' integrity and national reputation".
Just the day before, Ms Lim had said the town council had explained to the Ministry of National Development (MND) that it had challenges in submitting arrears data in MND's format from mid-last year.
That same day, Minister for Culture, Community and Youth Lawrence Wong had said residents "deserve to know that their money is being properly managed and spent" in an op-ed in the Straits Times, and said the opposition-run town council's silence on its financial situation suggests "bigger problems lurking".
Minister of State Desmond Lee's response to Ms Lim is reproduced below.
"Ms Sylvia Lim said that her TC's inability over the past 18 months (since May 2013) to report its S&CC arrears was because of MND's reporting format. But this cannot be so.
The MND reporting format is not new. It has been in use for many years. All TCs have had no problem complying with it, including Mr Low Thia Khiang's Hougang TC. AHPETC itself was able to submit its arrears reports for nearly two years, until shocking arrears rate of 30% among HDB residents and 50% among commercial tenants cropped up. It then stopped its reporting abruptly.
What is important here is not just AHPETC's failure to submit required information on S&CC arrears - or other information for that matter. For it has also failed to submit its audited accounts for presentation to Parliament on time for three years in a row, or every year since the Workers' Party took over the running of the TC after GE 2011; and it has failed to submit other required reports to MND.
What is important is AHPETC's lack of transparency and Ms Lim's and her fellow MPs' failure to be accountable. They have yet to explain why their arrears are so high or disclose what their latest arrears rate is.
Ms Sylvia Lim herself has acknowledged that their high arrears rate was a matter of concern. In her responses to the Town Council Management Reports, she has assured both MND and the public that she would be looking into the problem. That was in 2012, and again in 2013. But her actions have not matched her words. When pressed for answers, she repeatedly says she will answer in "due course".
She must have the information MND and her residents are seeking. If AHPETC doesn't know who among its residents and tenants are in arrears, how can it be sending lawyers' letters of demand to them, as Ms Lim now tells us it has been doing. And if she does have such information, why can't she answer these two questions: Why are your arrears so high -- anywhere from 3 times to 30 times the national average? And what are your latest arrears?
But as her statement yesterday suggests, she sees no need to reply to such questions, and avoids providing the straightforward answers that she surely should be able to give.
Running the Town Council properly is the responsibility of the Workers' Party's elected Members of Parliament. Instead of answering important questions on the Town Council, they have sought to blame others. Hence, they say their failure was due to the MND reporting format. Then they blame their own software. Then they say it was the AGO's or their own Auditors' fault because they were busy having to entertain them. And as each new excuse is shown to be untrue, they have put forward new excuses.
Just last week, when reminded again by MND to submit the latest arrears report, Ms How Weng Fan, AHPETC's General Manager, replied to say that the reason why they have not been able to submit their arrears report was because they were no longer on the AIM system! But the AIM system had come to an end 19 months before AHPETC stopped submitting its monthly reports. Moreover, WP was able to submit its returns in Hougang for years since 2008 and for two years in AHPETC, without the AIM software.
This series of excuses calls into question not only AHPETC's local competence, but also the WP leaders' integrity and national reputation. Ms Sylvia Lim in her statement yesterday put the responsibility on the Government and the AGO to establish AHPETC's true state of affairs. This is a remarkable proposition: The elected MPs of Aljunied, Hougang and Punggol East, who pride themselves on checking the Government, are now relying on the Government to check them, instead of taking responsibility themselves for accounting to the public what they have done or have not done."
MND also released the following fact sheet on The Workers' Party responses on the issue of AHPETC's arrears reports.
Work in Progress: Workers' Party's Explanations of Why AHPETC Stopped Submitting Arrears Reports
"It is AGO's fault"
Lianhe Zaobao report on Nov 6 referring to WP Chief Low Thia Khiang: "He reiterated that he was not sure why the TC did not submit the relevant financial information to MND, but he guessed it could be because the TC needed to handle the AGO audit, and therefore did not have time to organise the information to give to MND".
Straits Times report on Nov 7 quoting Png Eng Huat : "From May last year, the council also stopped sending its monthly S&CC arrears report to the ministry despite reminders. Asked why, he said it had "prioritised resources for the Auditor-General's Office (AGO) audit"".
Lianhe Zaobao report quoting Ms Sylvia Lim on Nov 11: "The AHPETC has not been submitting its monthly S&CC arrears report after April last year, and also did not submit its FY13 financial statements and self-declared corporate governance checklist. The town council chairperson Sylvia Lim attributed these to the Auditor-General's audit over the past few months delaying the town council's internal audit workflow."
MND's response: AHPETC stopped submitting the monthly S&CC arrears reports from May 2013, 10 months before the AGO audit even began.
"It is the press' fault"
Ms Sylvia Lim in a media release on Dec 10: "When the mass media interviewed me on 10 November 2014 on the MND's Town Council Management Review (TCMR) results for Financial Year 2013, I was asked about the circumstances leading to AHPETC's non-submission of two sets of documents - the TC's audited financial statements for FY 13 as well as the arrears reports. I had told the media that the audit for FY 13 could not reasonably commence while the Auditor-General's Office (AGO) special audit was still in progress; as for the arrears reports, I told them that the finance team had been tied up with audits by our commercial auditors for FY 12 and then by the AGO.
Unfortunately, my responses to the two matters were conflated in certain media reports. At no time did I say that focusing on the AGO audit was the sole cause of the delay in submission of the arrears data to MND. In any case, MND should have known this from my earlier correspondence."
MND's response: Workers' Party MPs didn't offer Excuse 1 only once. They offered it on three separate occasions.
"It is MND's fault"
Ms Lim in a media statement on Dec 10: "Minister Wong may have not known that the TC had explained to MND its challenge in submitting arrears data in MND's format from mid-2013. I had explained that while the IT system being used at AHPETC could churn out arrears reports, manual counting and sorting was required to get the information into the format required by the MND. I had also informed MND that AHPETC had requested its software developers to enhance the system to churn out the reports in the required format, but this was work in progress. MND had been informed that AHPETC's Finance Team and its software developers had been involved in (two consecutive) audits, first by the TC's own auditors (commencing mid 2013) and then by the Auditor-General (commencing March 2014), and that this had led to a deferment of reporting requests, including MND's request for arrears data in its prescribed format. I had concurrently offered to submit to MND the arrears data the TC had as it was, but this was rejected by MND.
MND's response: The monthly S&CC arrears report template is a simple table, stating how many households owe S&CC and for how long. It has been used by all TCs -- including Hougang TC since 2008 when it was managed by the Workers' Party and the same General Manager, Ms How Weng Fan. It was also used by AHPETC itself till April 2013, when it stopped abruptly.
Also, in addition to blaming AGO for its own tardiness in 2014, Ms Lim now also blames AHPETC's own auditors for its own tardiness in 2013. However, AHPETC was audited by the same auditor, Foo Kon Tan Grant Thornton, in 2012. That did not prevent the TC from submitting its monthly S&CC arrears report until April 2013.
"It is the PAP's fault"
AHPETC General Manager How Weng Fan's reply to HDB TC Secretariat on Dec 3: "The Town Council's financial system that could generate the arrears report that HDB wants was terminated by the PAP-owned company, Action Information Management to whom the former Aljunied Town Council sold the system to. The arrears report that could be generated was terminated with the termination by AIM."
MND's response: AHPETC had been able to continue submitting its monthly S&CC arrears reports for 19 months after it had stopped using the AIM Town Council Management System. On Dec 14, 2012, the AHPETC stated publicly that it had "moved on to upscale and develop the Financial System which was in use at the former Hougang SMC". The Hougang Town Council was also able to submit its monthly S&CC arrears reports from April 2008 until it was merged with Aljunied, without the aid of AIM. Thereafter, AHPETC itself was able to do the same from August 2011 to April 2013.
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Re: Lawrence Wong & Desmond Lee should also ask for PAP TCs to be probed!
PAPigs shud noe that bringing down WP will not stop the sgian hatred for them....... even if there is no WP, we will vote for other oppo.... CSJ if need be. Better to be cheated and deceived than by PAPigs
PAPigs shud noe that bringing down WP will not stop the sgian hatred for them....... even if there is no WP, we will vote for other oppo.... CSJ if need be. Better to be cheated and deceived than by PAPigs
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Re: Desmond Lee dismisses Sylvia Lim's 'series of excuses' on AHPETC
A sub-campaign/pre-campaign to soften the ground has been launched?
The erection may be due earlier than expected, with these appetisers being served so early.
A sub-campaign/pre-campaign to soften the ground has been launched?
The erection may be due earlier than expected, with these appetisers being served so early.
Re: Desmond Lee dismisses Sylvia Lim's 'series of excuses' on AHPETC
Does anybody bother to read the stuff from them anymore ? The problem with the half truths they put out is that you never know which half is true. Better not to contaminate your mind.
Does anybody bother to read the stuff from them anymore ? The problem with the half truths they put out is that you never know which half is true. Better not to contaminate your mind.
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Re: Desmond Lee dismisses Sylvia Lim's 'series of excuses' on AHPETC
PAP is trying to hide something, that's why two ministers are on the attack. Vivian was bashed up and looked like a fool. Now these two idiots want to out do Vivian.
The fact is that the WP are not ruthless, money-seeking politicians. They don't waste money sending legal warnings. They work with the poor to find a solution. The bigger question one should ask is why are people so poor that they can't afford to pay the bills. It is time to point the big finger at the PAP government.
WP should just hold back and come election time, do a nuclear attack on the PAP. Get ready teams of volunteer to distribute information leaflets to every sinkee. Go for the kill. You can't fight the PAP with a glove ...use a parang to chop its head off.
PAP is trying to hide something, that's why two ministers are on the attack. Vivian was bashed up and looked like a fool. Now these two idiots want to out do Vivian.
The fact is that the WP are not ruthless, money-seeking politicians. They don't waste money sending legal warnings. They work with the poor to find a solution. The bigger question one should ask is why are people so poor that they can't afford to pay the bills. It is time to point the big finger at the PAP government.
WP should just hold back and come election time, do a nuclear attack on the PAP. Get ready teams of volunteer to distribute information leaflets to every sinkee. Go for the kill. You can't fight the PAP with a glove ...use a parang to chop its head off.
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Re: Desmond Lee dismisses Sylvia Lim's 'series of excuses' on AHPETC
This is PAP's last battle.
This is PAP's last battle.
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Re: Desmond Lee dismisses Sylvia Lim's 'series of excuses' on AHPETC
The more they attack, the more they are going to lose. Aljunied voters arent blind.
The more they attack, the more they are going to lose. Aljunied voters arent blind.
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Re: Desmond Lee dismisses Sylvia Lim's 'series of excuses' on AHPETC
This makes Sinkies hate em to the Core, this round more GRC will go to
Oppositions.
This makes Sinkies hate em to the Core, this round more GRC will go to
Oppositions.
Re: Desmond Lee dismisses Sylvia Lim's 'series of excuses' on AHPETC
Our ruthless mercenaries at work and at their best again, town council reserve as of 2010 at $2B still wanna increase conservancy & keep harping on bad recovery like blood-suckering loansharks. So free go dig deeper why pple not paying instead of being another parrot here.
Our ruthless mercenaries at work and at their best again, town council reserve as of 2010 at $2B still wanna increase conservancy & keep harping on bad recovery like blood-suckering loansharks. So free go dig deeper why pple not paying instead of being another parrot here.
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Re: Desmond Lee dismisses Sylvia Lim's 'series of excuses' on AHPETC
There is nothing wrong with reading. What's more important is to not believe everything you read without discernment.
There is nothing wrong with reading. What's more important is to not believe everything you read without discernment.
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Re: Desmond Lee dismisses Sylvia Lim's 'series of excuses' on AHPETC
Wasn't it reported that some of those who didn't pay the S&CC are the PAP supporters who refused to pay because they didn't vote for WP? Sibey chao ka...
Wasn't it reported that some of those who didn't pay the S&CC are the PAP supporters who refused to pay because they didn't vote for WP? Sibey chao ka...
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