PAP stands alone on the ship naming issue

[neddy]

PAP is alone on this as LKY has lay a wreath on their graves and honour them. BUt since Old Fart is a traitor anyway...its no big deal for him doing treasonous acts. So why should others make noise when PAP is the biggest traitor of all?

Is Lee invited to the ' break Bintang Beer bottle' christening celemony?

 

[bic_cherry]

Singapore hopes that Indonesia will not let peace and morality down.

From an adjacent forum...
Singapore hopes that Indonesia will not let peace and morality down.

Thread source (a1forum): Singapore concerned over naming of Indonesian navy ship after executed commandos
Correction - no one wanted this until some smart aleck in Jakarta or TNI decided that one of their 3 second-hand made-in-UK frigates need to be christened with the names of Terrorists whose actions took 3 life and injured many others.
The point of all there diplomatic row and calling off meetings is to register protest and unhappiness - what is wrong with that ?
And to assume that this can lead to conflict goes to show some has little idea that Singapore still place great importance in its relation in ASEAN.
Beyond this, I suspect Mindef will not participate future bilateral military exercises what may involved the frigate KRI Usman Harun.

Agree that Singapore did the right thing to cancel the invite to Indonesian generals: cannot accept their glorification of terrorist: will only lead young Indonesian children to follow the same path, killing innocent folk for an unworthy cause, very bad precedence for SE Asia and increases suspicion between countries in ASEAN. Indonesian Government must overrule military and their poorly educated Generals. Indonesian Government should vet ship and other official christianing names to ensure deserving honor and international respect.

Singapore's LKY already placed flowers on the graves of the 2 fallen commandoes signifying forgiveness and closure of the episode with the commandoes having received their just desserts. No oil was added to the fire (e.g. Naming a toilet/ zoo animal after their names/ dragging their bodies through Singapore streets/ burning the bodies/ disfiguring them as lynch mobs commonly do); to my knowledge, as convicts, there was no ill-treatment of the commandoes in prison pending their death sentence , honorable treatment of the convicted Indonesians in prison and there after should be reciprocated with continued respect for the innocent civilians who died in the cowardly bombing, by accepting the episode as a terrorist act. The current decision to name the frigate after misled commandoes who killed innocent civilians is as misguided as it is wrong.

By glorifying the convicted murderers of innocent civilians, Indonesia has inadvertently diminished the glory of the other heroes (BungTomo and JohnLie) whose names are now being equally mentioned in the occasioned frigate christening scheme.

Singaporeans should mount an information campaign (blogs and other means) to inform Indonesian citizens about the historical significance of real Indonesian history/ heroes: that way, the Indonesian generals' ignorance of SE Asian history and lack of responsibility and human morals will be thoroughly exposed.

In the mean time, Indonesian military generals should be excluded from all Singapore trade shows. The cursed frigate ship should also be denied entry to Singapore waters and banned from participation in any bilateral military exercise forever.

 

[Qantas]

Why should we be sucked into this stupid issue. Look at it this way, this matter is almost 50 yr old. I like to question why PAP is making such a big hoo ha over such mundane issue ? Is there other issue or they are fast losing support and needed a matter to "unite" everyone ?

Lets look at it this way. Somebody very ambitious wanted to become the Prime Minister of Malaysia at the time. So he "tweaked" the questions on the referundum on merger so that no matter how you vote, we would end up in Malaysia. That was when the problem started as Sukarno buay song with the Federation so start attacking Sinkieland. Make sense? In the end, also kena booted out of Malaysia

 

[laksaboy]

Re: Singapore hopes that Indonesia will not let peace and morality down.

From an adjacent forum...
Singapore hopes that Indonesia will not let peace and morality down.
Agree that Singapore did the right thing to cancel the invite to Indonesian generals: cannot accept their glorification of terrorist: will only lead young Indonesian children to follow the same path, killing innocent folk for an unworthy cause, very bad precedence for SE Asia and increases suspicion between countries in ASEAN. Indonesian Government must overrule military and their poorly educated Generals. Indonesian Government should vet ship and other official christianing names to ensure deserving honor and international respect.

Singapore's LKY already placed flowers on the graves of the 2 fallen commandoes signifying forgiveness and closure of the episode with the commandoes having received their just desserts. No oil was added to the fire (e.g. Naming a toilet/ zoo animal after their names/ dragging their bodies through Singapore streets/ burning the bodies/ disfiguring them as lynch mobs commonly do); to my knowledge, as convicts, there was no ill-treatment of the commandoes in prison pending their death sentence , honorable treatment of the convicted Indonesians in prison and there after should be reciprocated with continued respect for the innocent civilians who died in the cowardly bombing, by accepting the episode as a terrorist act. The current decision to name the frigate after misled commandoes who killed innocent civilians is as misguided as it is wrong.

By glorifying the convicted murderers of innocent civilians, Indonesia has inadvertently diminished the glory of the other heroes (BungTomo and JohnLie) whose names are now being equally mentioned in the occasioned frigate christening scheme.

Singaporeans should mount an information campaign (blogs and other means) to inform Indonesian citizens about the historical significance of real Indonesian history/ heroes: that way, the Indonesian generals' ignorance of SE Asian history and lack of responsibility and human morals will be thoroughly exposed.

In the mean time, Indonesian military generals should be excluded from all Singapore trade shows. The cursed frigate ship should also be denied entry to Singapore waters and banned from participation in any bilateral military exercise forever.

Too much knee-jerk patriotic bullshit. Then again, it's the AsiaOne forum, so it is hardly surprising.

Let's put it this way: Singapore could disappear from the face of the map overnight and the rest of the world would still go about its business pretty nicely.

However, if the entire Indonesian archipelago disappeared, the world would mourn the loss of natural resources, ancient cultural heritage sites, unique flora and fauna etc.

A small, insignificant city-state country should practise meekness in diplomatic relations. You're only allowed to talk smack, express displeasure or dish out snarky back-handed remarks when you're a bigger country and/or you possess nuclear weapons.

Singapore is nothing. Its sovereignty and so-called dignity are also nothing. All Singapore is good at is being a money laundering hub, that niche role can be easily made redundant.

 

[bic_cherry]

Re: Singapore hopes that Indonesia will not let peace and morality down.

The relevance of red-dot to SE Asia.

Too much knee-jerk patriotic bullshit. Then again, it's the AsiaOne forum, so it is hardly surprising.
Let's put it this way: Singapore could disappear from the face of the map overnight and the rest of the world would still go about its business pretty nicely.
However, if the entire Indonesian archipelago disappeared, the world would mourn the loss of natural resources, ancient cultural heritage sites, unique flora and fauna etc.
A small, insignificant city-state country should practise meekness in diplomatic relations. You're only allowed to talk smack, express displeasure or dish out snarky back-handed remarks when you're a bigger country and/or you possess nuclear weapons.
Singapore is nothing. Its sovereignty and so-called dignity are also nothing. All Singapore is good at is being a money laundering hub, that niche role can be easily made redundant.

For Singapore to survive in SE Asia, it's ministers have to be respected as the conscience of ASEAN and this incident will determine if our leaders are actually worth their salt. We created national service to defend our physical terrain. As for national/ moral terrain- guess much depends on the leadership of our current government. Now that moral terrain has been encroached (and that of the larger world in Indonesia honoring cowardly 'commandoes'/ criminals who murdered innocent people), guess the ball is now in CCS foot (he seems much more qualified/ measured than the useless big discount boob-butcher: (the full minister))- let CCS do his mojo in defending the moral values of Singapore/ this world.

Without successfully being the unwavering moral conscience of SE Asia, Singapore sinks into automatic oblivion/ irrelevance.

PM Lee has promised, in exchange for top/ premium salaries, a "first class political leadership"- now is his chance to deliver, by convincing the Indonesians to rescind their mistaken choice:

 

[gingerlyn]

Re: Singapore hopes that Indonesia will not let peace and morality down.

so the logic is simple:
PAP attract super rich foreigners to stay in Singapore and use them as Top earners benchmark.
In return this benchmark would help PAP to secure higher minister pay

 

[steffychun]

Re: Singapore hopes that Indonesia will not let peace and morality down.

So out of this, CCS will get a raise?

 

[bic_cherry]

No place for petty chauvinism

ST FORUM: Published on Feb 11, 2014
No place for petty chauvinism
INDONESIA'S decision to name a warship after two marines who bombed MacDonald House in 1965 is not merely insensitive to those who perished and suffered, but also clearly designed to be provocative ("Singapore urges Jakarta not to 'reopen old wounds'"; last Friday).
In the words of a Golkar MP, let Singapore shriek "like a chicken beaten by a stick".
Clearly, it is not good enough for some in Jakarta that Osman Mohamed Ali and Harun Said are already honoured in a cemetery for "heroes", the way Japanese Class-A war criminals who committed atrocities across East Asia during World War II are enshrined at Yasukuni.
Clearly, former prime minister Lee Kuan Yew's gracious act of sprinkling flowers on their graves - against his own principles - for the sake of bilateral ties 40 years ago matters little to the Indonesian government.
At a time when Indonesia is actively fighting Islamic extremism at home and abroad, this blunt tribute to state-sponsored terrorism does its international reputation more harm than good.
I am shocked that a nation of 250 million people has no other national heroes to celebrate, apart from two saboteurs.
Surely a vast and resource-rich archipelagic empire can afford to be bigger than petty chauvinism, and resolve any differences with a "little red dot" in a civilised way?
Toh Cheng Seong
Copyright © 2014 Singapore Press Holdings. All rights reserved.
http://www.straitstimes.com/premium/forum-letters/story/no-place-petty-chauvinism-20140211

 

[bic_cherry]

Re: Singapore hopes that Indonesia will not let peace and morality down.

So out of this, CCS will get a raise?

He gets to keep his job if he does well, otherwise, just vote him out lor.

 

[Lordshiva]

Please, this is not a case of my country vs your country. Loyalty is good, but not misplaced loyalty. And loyalty to country is not the same as loyalty to ruling party or government.

If the PAP is in the right, I'll support it all the way, the way I supported the caning of Michael Fay (even though I'm against caning per se, the law must be applied fairly).

But for the longest time I've been saying that the PAP has been screwing up its foreign policy, particularly with our neighbours Malaysia and Indonesia – the water issue, our excessive military budget, money laundering, extradition treaty, beggar-thy-neighbour economic policies, deforestation by Singaporean-controlled companies, etc. They are our closest neighbours – you exploit and treat them like shit, they treat you like shit.

How to support a govt when it's in the wrong?

'Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.'
~ Mark Twain

Thats why it is called civil disobedience ....

it assumes that the collective mind of the people are wiser than the government and is able to tell when a govt is fucking up and trying to pass "laws" which are unjust and downright unreasonable, and that the people are to be ruled by a higher and more moral and noble law which then entitles them to tell the government of the day to fuck off with whatever nonsense laws its seeking to promulgate....


the people of sinkapore had better wake up to this simple and powerful fact.... the government is not a fucking law to itself but a servant of the people. if it seeks to impose laws which just sidelines and oppresses the people, then it should be told to fuck off and change those laws....and if they dont then its time to change govt.....

 

[Clone]

Upcoming Indon Presidential Elections.

Singapore GE 2014 end.

^^^^

The Indons are the masters of wayang kulit. Nothing to see here.

 

[bic_cherry]

Terrorism in any form, is NOT OKAY in the world today.

Terrorism in any form, is NOT OKAY in the world today.

This is a National isue and not a PAP issue.
Hope that WP alsp condemn the naming.

Not just national, but INTERNATIONAL ISSUE since the naming of ship after terrorist will indicate Indonesia's support for the concept of terrorism: the killing of innocent civilians just to get one's way. This increases suspicions amongst nations to a whole new level and will even be destructive for the host nation as even it's own people discover that terrorism is now legitimized even on their own soil, not to mention an insult to the 2 other real heroes (BungTomo and JohnLie), whose names are now mentioned together in the same breath.

Naming the ship after 2 cowardly terrorist is as misplaced as it is misled. All citizens of the world should condemn all forms of terrorist activity, whether it is physical activity or on intellectual ground (e.g. hero worshiping terrorist).

 

[Kohliantye]

This ship naming exercise by the Indons have provoked a lot of discussion on this forum.

I enjoyed reading every bit of it and also weighed on the pros and cons of such an exercise (naming of ship) that would be beneficial to either Singapore or Indonesia.

Usman and Harun were captured in 1965, tried and executed in 1968.

In 1965 (during that incident) we, SINGAPORE was still part of MALAYSIA.

Should it not be for Malaysia to respond as Singapore was under it's control during that period. Those who perished in that subversive acts were "Malaysian citizens"

Why is Malaysia keeping so quiet now and Singapore (which was still then part of Malaysia) getting into such arguments.

 

[Jlokta]

Re: Terrorism in any form, is NOT OKAY in the world today.

Naming the ship after 2 cowardly terrorist is as misplaced as it is misled. All citizens of the world should condemn all forms of terrorist activity, whether it is physical activity or on intellectual ground (e.g. hero worshiping terrorist).

60.1% on this little red dot worships a WW2 汉奸 and a tyrant and they don't see anything wrong with that.

One person's meat is another man's poison, the indo's have already clarified the issue.

Stop harping on it like this is gonna escalate into a confrontation.

 

[Agoraphobic]

Haha. This thought also crossed my mind. Indonesia (then under Sukarno) attacked the Federation (which does not exist today), Singapore then became independent, and should have hanged them before independence, or sent the bombers back to Indonesia (or KL?). And the Sukarno era is long over for Indonesia, it is a democracy(?) now. Whatever it is, it is all overblown. A big show for just a bad page in history. Malaysia has a lot more bad blood with Indonesia to pick on things like this. It will be precarious of Malaysia to anger to Indonesia. But both should attend to their internal issues first before finding fault with outsiders.

Cheers!

....Should it not be for Malaysia to respond as Singapore was under it's control during that period....

 

[3_M]

Re: Terrorism in any form, is NOT OKAY in the world today.

Terrorism in any form, is NOT OKAY in the world today.

Not just national, but INTERNATIONAL ISSUE since the naming of ship after terrorist will indicate Indonesia's support for the concept of terrorism: the killing of innocent civilians just to get one's way. This increases suspicions amongst nations to a whole new level and will even be destructive for the host nation as even it's own people discover that terrorism is now legitimized even on their own soil, not to mention an insult to the 2 other real heroes (BungTomo and JohnLie), whose names are now mentioned together in the same breath.

Naming the ship after 2 cowardly terrorist is as misplaced as it is misled. All citizens of the world should condemn all forms of terrorist activity, whether it is physical activity or on intellectual ground (e.g. hero worshiping terrorist).

Time to bite the bullet. There is absolutely nothing you can do, even US who usually poke their nose into affairs of other countries is not saying anything (so much for your leaders who sucks up to them). UN got other more urgent matters to attend than to waste time on the childish banter of PAP.

Let this be a lesson to PAP and let move on.

 

[laksaboy]

Re: Terrorism in any form, is NOT OKAY in the world today.

Here's something for the patriotic grateful gong kias:

Patriotism Is a Mental Disorder
http://www.lewrockwell.com/2011/05/fred-reed/patriotism-is-a-mental-disorder/

No need to read the entire article if you find it too difficult; the first few paragraphs are enough.

Patriotism is everywhere thought to be a virtue rather than a mental disorder. I don’t get it.

If I told the Rotarians or an American Legion hall that “John is a patriot,” all would approve greatly of John. If I told them that patriotism was nothing more than the loyalty to each other of dogs in a pack, they would lynch me. Patriotism, they believe, is a Good Thing.

Of course the Japanese pilots who attacked Pearl Harbor were patriots, as were the German soldiers who murdered millions in the Second World War. The men who brought down the towers in New York were patriots, though of a religious sort. Do we admire their patriotism?

Of course not. When we say “John is a patriot,” we mean “John is a reliable member of our dog pack,” nothing more. The pack instinct seems more ancient, and certainly stronger, than morality or any form of human decency. Thus, once the pack – citizenry, I meant to say – have been properly roused to a pitch of patriotism, they will, under cover of the most diaphanous pretexts, rape Nanking, bomb Hiroshima, kill the Jews or, if they are Jews, Palestinians. We are animals of the pack. We don’t admire patriotism. We admire loyalty to ourselves.

Nothing better than starting with the impressionable youngsters, eh?

 

[tonychat]

Re: Terrorism in any form, is NOT OKAY in the world today.

Patriotism can also be considered as a sinkie disorder.. just look at those PAP fucks...

 

[bic_cherry]

KRI Osman Harun: re-floating the horror of Konfontasi era terrorism again in modernSG

Same topic, related thread...

KRI Osman Harun: re-floating the horror of Konfontasi era terrorism again in modern Singapore

Thread source (a1forum): Singapore concerned over naming of Indonesian navy ship after executed commandos
Indonesia is such a big nation, in term of both geographic size as well as population. (Some of their islands are still not named). Since the former Pres Suharto stepped down with Indonesia practising more democracy, the country is more fractious and with it different interest groups and power bases. There will be groups that are out to deliberately provoke. If Singapore protest in private, it is likely that this matter will be settled privately and the public is none wiser. This public protest in effect put groups that are deliberately out to provoke in the spotlight (even if we do not exactly know who they are) and on notice. The President's and central government's attention is drawn to this matter.
I saw snippet of the interview by their Foreign Minister on TV. SBY has continued to remain gracious.

Maybe can blame SAF officers and their counterparts in Indonesia: they do not really understand each other and have not managed to convince Indonesian generals to have moral courage in their work (rather than glorify terrorist/ people who kill innocent civilians/ use ignoble/ underhand tactics).

SBY should also have more control over the military. Any ship naming of size larger than just sampan must be certified by defense ministry and also perhaps ministry of national development and also history department to see of the so called 'heroes' in some outdated textbooks still stand up to modern day scrutiny and that the naming scheme does not get hijacked by extremist.

The 2 coward commandoes (Osman & Harun) might have been heroes during the time of Konfrontasi: no question about that; however, more than 40 years have passed since that tumultuous period, haven't the Indonesians grown up? Is the relationship between Indonesia and it's South East Asian neighbors still just so bad that it has to glorify terrorist so as to continue its Konfrontasi era culture of sabotaging Singapore and Malaysia?

The naming of the new a Indonesian frigate after Konfrontasi era cowards shows that Indonesian government still remenances fondly the time of bullying its neighbors and retains the ill will to perpetuate such misconduct.

The reason why the issue couldn't be resolved in private as U asked was because Singapore only got to know about the situation through Jakarta newspapers: by then, the sensitive issue would be published all over the blogosphere and too soon worldwide. In any case, the current public confrontation might have been after private appeal failed, truth of this fact, common people will not know. As always, Indonesia having publicized nationally the naming will in either case soon have to explain the decision. Where an issue is of moral significance, why discuss behind closed doors?

Unless a sounder Indonesian explanation for the naming can be proffered, SE Asia should be cautious, and very cautious about Indonesia germinating the old seeds of terrorism this modern day.

 

[bic_cherry]

Re: Terrorism in any form, is NOT OKAY in the world today.

Time to bite the bullet. There is absolutely nothing you can do, even US who usually poke their nose into affairs of other countries is not saying anything (so much for your leaders who sucks up to them). UN got other more urgent matters to attend than to waste time on the childish banter of PAP.
Let this be a lesson to PAP and let move on.

Unless it escalates out of hand, Singapore and Indonesia can handle it as private matter on their own, NO NEED TO INCONVENIENCE THE UN who has more important things to do such a Syrian conflict, Ukraine and Thailand.

In any case, we pay our leaders well due to their 'moral authority' to lead. This is their chance to see them perform and teach the Indonesian generals a thing or two about the psychology of terrorist and terrorism. We pay our leaders very well (like professionals), and in this regard, I hope they do not fail. Terrorism must not win.

When your moral compass is straight, U fight your own fight first, U do not ask mommy or daddy to do it for you. In this case, the fight will be moral/ verbal. Singapore must have the endurance to win...