Note: 24 Races in India!

[makapaaa]

Jan 19, 2010

Nationality and race are different

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I REFER to Mr Ramesh Niedu's letter, "As long as our ancestors originated from the Indian subcontinent, we are all Indian by race", last Saturday. This was in response to my letter, "Indian' anomaly", last Friday.
Cantonese, Hokkien or Hakka are all dialects, while Malayalam, like Tamil, is a Dravidian language and is one of the 24 official languages of India.
By Mr Niedu's simple definition, all persons from the Indian subcontinent are deemed Indian by race. If that were the case, then all persons from the 13 states of Malaysia would be Malaysian by race.
Nationality should not be confused with race.
Brown Anthony Pereira

 

[Char_Azn]

Jan 19, 2010

Nationality and race are different

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I REFER to Mr Ramesh Niedu's letter, "As long as our ancestors originated from the Indian subcontinent, we are all Indian by race", last Saturday. This was in response to my letter, "Indian' anomaly", last Friday.
Cantonese, Hokkien or Hakka are all dialects, while Malayalam, like Tamil, is a Dravidian language and is one of the 24 official languages of India.
By Mr Niedu's simple definition, all persons from the Indian subcontinent are deemed Indian by race. If that were the case, then all persons from the 13 states of Malaysia would be Malaysian by race.
Nationality should not be confused with race.
Brown Anthony Pereira

India is a joke. He forgot to mention that an Indian from 1 state cannot understand another from another state, they end up speaking English, and that's assuming the guy has been to school before

In China there is only 1 official language, Standard Mandarin. Almost everyone can understand it to a certain extent

 

[scroobal]

The national language across all of India is Hindi just like Mandarin. It has similar role as Mandarin as integrating the country and widely spoken and understood like Mandarin. Its the official language of the country and the second official language is English.

India is a joke. He forgot to mention that an Indian from 1 state cannot understand another from another state, they end up speaking English, and that's assuming the guy has been to school before

In China there is only 1 official language, Standard Mandarin. Almost everyone can understand it to a certain extent

 

[Char_Azn]

The national language across all of India is Hindi just like Mandarin. It has similar role as Mandarin as integrating the country and widely spoken and understood like Mandarin. Its the official language of the country and the second official language is English.

Not really true, many from Tamil Nadu which happens to be where most of the local Indians come from doesn't speak Hindi. And although many know a bit of Hindi(more so in the northern states), the large part of the population cannot communicate well enough to claim that they know the language and end up speaking in English. The 2nd part is a bit hard to explain. U need to work there to understand what I mean. Just imagine an Ah Tiong trying to communicate with really lousy English with U then gives up and speak in Chinese instead same case when an Indian from Andhra Pradesh going to a Amritsar will probably have that issue

 

[dunbluffme]

It is very easy what...just adopt this RACE categorising system invented by me:-

1) SG-Chinese
2) SG-Malay
3) SG-Indian
4) SG-Sikh
5) SG-Other (If father unknown)
6) INT-Chinese (If mixed with Chinese Father from China)
7) INT-Malay (If mixed with Malaysian Father from Malaysia)
8) INT-Indian (If mixed with Indian Father from India)
9) INT-Sikh (If mixed with Bayee Father from India)
10) INT-Other (If born oversea without knowing who the father is)
11) SG-ChupCheng (If mixed with local AngMoGao or Eurasian Father)
12) INT-ChupCheng (If mixed in other country AngMoGao or Eurasian)

Not really true, many from Tamil Nadu which happens to be where most of the local Indians come from doesn't speak Hindi. And although many know a bit of Hindi, the large part of the population cannot communicate well enough to claim that they know the language and end up speaking in English. The 2nd part is a bit hard to explain. U need to work there to understand what I mean. Just imagine an Ah Tiong trying to communicate with really lousy English with U then gives up and speak in Chinese instead same case when an Indian from Andhra Pradesh going to a Amritsar will probably have that issue

 

[Highfalutin]

Not really true, many from Tamil Nadu which happens to be where most of the local Indians come from doesn't speak Hindi. And although many know a bit of Hindi(more so in the northern states), the large part of the population cannot communicate well enough to claim that they know the language and end up speaking in English. The 2nd part is a bit hard to explain. U need to work there to understand what I mean. Just imagine an Ah Tiong trying to communicate with really lousy English with U then gives up and speak in Chinese instead same case when an Indian from Andhra Pradesh going to a Amritsar will probably have that issue

Frenchie Armenian. You know what you are talking about or not? You want to get deride, bemock, ridicule, insult, taunt, sneer, jeer, disparage again? People like you and me are mere mortals. Not infallible unlike Knights of the Know It All Square Table with Three Legs. We may have friends from large areas of India who don't understand, let alone speak Hindi but that's irrelevant. The One had spoken. We can use wikipedia to support our position on the subject. But of course that does not mitigate the risk of being deride, bemock, ridicule, insult, taunt, sneer, jeer, disparage. Would you go against Lee Kuan Yew and expect not to be challenged to meet in a cul de sac?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindi

 

[khunking]

Is Hindi viewed as a higher caste language hence it's role as India's national language? Frankly, most southerners can hardly speak the language.

The national language across all of India is Hindi just like Mandarin. It has similar role as Mandarin as integrating the country and widely spoken and understood like Mandarin. Its the official language of the country and the second official language is English.

 

[kunkin]

Is Hindi viewed as a higher caste language hence it's role as India's national language? Frankly, most southerners can hardly speak the language.

unlike you hokkiens..hainanese..etc.. who have least regard for your mother tongue (u call it as dialect!!) , the different races in india view their mother tongue in high regard..

 

[scroobal]

Largest language by mother tongue by far is Hindi thus they have the numbers to make it the Official Language. To keep the states from going separate, they have made English the second language. India is a democracy unlike China. All students learn Hindi and English so after after more than half a century, anyone who is around 50 years or younger will know Hindi and English

India operates a coalition govt unlike Communist Party in China, thus people cannot be threatened to abandon their mother tongue or there will be separatist movement emerging.

A chat between 2 tamils from Tamil Nadu will take place in Tamil. A chat between a Tamil and Gujarati in local enterprise will take place in Hindi. A chat between 2 tamils in an MNC workplace will be done in English as it considered the language for career advancement. The moment a foreigner such as Ang Mo, Japanese, Chinese is present, everyone will default to English.

Its no different from 2 Malaysian Hokkein Peng who will converse in Hokkein but in the workplace will likely chat in English or in the presence of others will chat in English or Malay. The moment an angmo or even a Singaporean is there, they will default to English.

Is Hindi viewed as a higher caste language hence it's role as India's national language? Frankly, most southerners can hardly speak the language.

 

[Char_Azn]

Largest language by mother tongue by far is Hindi thus they have the numbers to make it the Official Language. To keep the states from going separate, they have made English the second language. India is a democracy unlike China. All students learn Hindi and English so after after more than half a century, anyone who is around 50 years or younger will know Hindi and English

India operates a coalition govt unlike Communist Party in China, thus people cannot be threatened to abandon their mother tongue or there will be separatist movement emerging.

A chat between 2 tamils from Tamil Nadu will take place in Tamil. A chat between a Tamil and Gujarati in local enterprise will take place in Hindi. A chat between 2 tamils in an MNC workplace will be done in English as it considered the language for career advancement. The moment a foreigner such as Ang Mo, Japanese, Chinese is present, everyone will default to English.

Its no different from 2 Malaysian Hokkein Peng who will converse in Hokkein but in the workplace will likely chat in English or in the presence of others will chat in English or Malay. The moment an angmo or even a Singaporean is there, they will default to English.

Now I am fairly certain you probably have never worked in India. Chances of having someone from from Tamil Nadu or Gujarat chatting in Hindi is not going to be too high. Pple in Tamil Nadu have 2 choices of schooling, the totally non-Hindi type or the public schools which teaches Hindi(go ask any Indian from Tamil Nadu). Chances of a native from Tamil Nadu knowing how to speak Hindi is as good as one that doesnt know how to speak Hindi. When that happens, English is more commonly used when 2 different person from different states meet. Just to give U an idea of how messy the place is U can look at the table here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Official_languages_of_India#States

Interstate officials probably deal with each other in Hindi or English but once it goes down to the state level, to the public, its more local languages then Hindi and in most instances more English then Hindi. From what I've been told, Hindi is still common mostly in the northern regions but not so much in the south.

 

[khunking]

Your answer is politically correct but it still doesn't answer my caste related question.

India has a hierarchical caste system in the society. Within Indian culture, whether in the north or the south, Hindu or Muslim, urban or village, virtually all things, people, and groups of people are ranked according to various essential qualities. If one is attuned to the theme of hierarchy in India, one can discern it everywhere. Although India is a political democracy, in daily life there is little advocacy of or adherence to notions of equality.

Throughout India, individuals are also ranked according to their wealth and power. For example, there are "big men" (bare admi , in Hindi) and "little men" (chhote admi ) everywhere. "Big men" sit confidently on chairs, while "little men" come before them to make requests, either standing or crouching down on their haunches, certainly not presuming to sit beside a man of high status as an equal. Even men of nearly equal status who might share a string cot to sit on take their places carefully--the higher-ranking man at the head of the cot, the lower-ranking man at the foot.

http://www.indianchild.com/caste_system_in_india.htm

 

[Char_Azn]

Your answer is politically correct but it still doesn't answer my caste related question.

India has a hierarchical caste system in the society. Within Indian culture, whether in the north or the south, Hindu or Muslim, urban or village, virtually all things, people, and groups of people are ranked according to various essential qualities. If one is attuned to the theme of hierarchy in India, one can discern it everywhere. Although India is a political democracy, in daily life there is little advocacy of or adherence to notions of equality.

Throughout India, individuals are also ranked according to their wealth and power. For example, there are "big men" (bare admi , in Hindi) and "little men" (chhote admi ) everywhere. "Big men" sit confidently on chairs, while "little men" come before them to make requests, either standing or crouching down on their haunches, certainly not presuming to sit beside a man of high status as an equal. Even men of nearly equal status who might share a string cot to sit on take their places carefully--the higher-ranking man at the head of the cot, the lower-ranking man at the foot.

http://www.indianchild.com/caste_system_in_india.htm

The caste thing has nothing to do with languages, its the family background. I still can't figure it out properly. Most of my Indian colleagues are, well, less then enthusiastic in the topic. From what little I have been told, its more to do with the family, most of them would be able to tell what caste you are from your name.

It has a lot to do with the job traditionally associated with your family linage so you are pretty much screwed the moment you are born to a particular family of lower caste. Even if you work your way up to being fairly successful, some will still look down on you base on your caste status.

It's probably hard for outsiders to try and figure this out and my colleagues have not been very open about the subject so most of what I just posted are still speculations from what I've been told so don't quote me on this. We probably need a real Indian to come in and explain it

 

[khunking]

The lower caste will play down the impact of their status and the higher caste will stamp their superiority. What's the point of having an Indian here to explain about the caste status? There's no fine line between two opposite extremes in India now.

The caste thing has nothing to do with languages, its the family background. I still can't figure it out properly. Most of my Indian colleagues are, well, less then enthusiastic in the topic. From what little I have been told, its more to do with the family, most of them would be able to tell what caste you are from your name.

It has a lot to do with the job traditionally associated with your family linage so you are pretty much screwed the moment you are born to a particular family of lower caste. Even if you work your way up to being fairly successful, some will still look down on you base on your caste status.

It's probably hard for outsiders to try and figure this out and my colleagues have not been very open about the subject so most of what I just posted are still speculations from what I've been told so don't quote me on this. We probably need a real Indian to come in and explain it

 

[scroobal]

Sorry, language has nothing to do with caste.

The caste system is very much alive in India.

Your answer is politically correct but it still doesn't answer my caste related question.

India has a hierarchical caste system in the society. Within Indian culture, whether in the north or the south, Hindu or Muslim, urban or village, virtually all things, people, and groups of people are ranked according to various essential qualities. If one is attuned to the theme of hierarchy in India, one can discern it everywhere. Although India is a political democracy, in daily life there is little advocacy of or adherence to notions of equality.

Throughout India, individuals are also ranked according to their wealth and power. For example, there are "big men" (bare admi , in Hindi) and "little men" (chhote admi ) everywhere. "Big men" sit confidently on chairs, while "little men" come before them to make requests, either standing or crouching down on their haunches, certainly not presuming to sit beside a man of high status as an equal. Even men of nearly equal status who might share a string cot to sit on take their places carefully--the higher-ranking man at the head of the cot, the lower-ranking man at the foot.

http://www.indianchild.com/caste_system_in_india.htm

 

[tanwahtiu]

Not really, Hokkien and Canto are still spoken today despite Leegrime trying to mutate Sinkies into POMEs.

 

[jonlatio]

I think is that the Tamils and other South indian States resisted the imposition of Hindi as the national language in their states. They felt the Northerners in Delhi were forcing this on them. It had nothing to do with caste, it's more of a language superiority thing they felt was coming from Delhi.. There were riots and all that during the 60s. Till now, many south Indians who studied Hindi will try to refuse to speak hindi as much as possible.
This was told to me by a North Indian guy from Mumbai.

 

[Char_Azn]

I think is that the Tamils and other South indian States resisted the imposition of Hindi as the national language in their states. They felt the Northerners in Delhi were forcing this on them. It had nothing to do with caste, it's more of a language superiority thing they felt was coming from Delhi.. There were riots and all that during the 60s. Till now, many south Indians who studied Hindi will try to refuse to speak hindi as much as possible.
This was told to me by a North Indian guy from Mumbai.

U are right

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Hindi_agitations_of_Tamil_Nadu

Which is why the country remains pretty much a mess. I've even came across an Urdu speaker(from Hyderabad) which is supposedly very similar to Hindi end up speaking English to a Hindi speaker(from Calcutta)

Of coz like Highfalutin mentioned, I fully expect to be "deride, bemock, ridicule, insult, taunt, sneer, jeer, disparage" for being out of point again

 

[longbow]

Speak Hindi if you want to talk to those in power. Hindi is the respected language. Tamil will get you nowhere in the corridors of power. Or speak English to communicate. However, if you can speak Hindi you become kar ke lang.

You are correct about the problems with communication. Been there done that.

 

[zuoom]

is there still a huge divide between the guys from North India n South India?

one thing for sure is the buge divide between the rich n poor.

 

[Char_Azn]

is there still a huge divide between the guys from North India n South India?

one thing for sure is the buge divide between the rich n poor.

Indian culture, language and food is very diverse. I used to put China and India together and judge them using China as a standard. Which cannot be more different.

The Chinese have been ruled as a single country for centuries, breaking off only for short periods. The vast majority of population are Han Chinese and for centuries were ruled using confusionistic teachings.

Many of our culture is pretty similar, the north and south Chinese shares little difference between the festivals they celebrate and there isn't not a lot of difference between local customs. Food is of coz different due to local availability of local livestock. Even in terms of languages, mandarin has already been widely used in Northern China and was actively promoted during and after the Qing Dynasty as a common language. And just as important, written words were more or less unified 2000 yrs ago

Of coz there are very different cultures when we look deeper at the minorities like the Xiongnu, the mongols or Hui, but those are in the minority, numbers are too small to make a differnce and even then many have already assimilated into Han society

India on the other hand is basically pretty much a ruled as separate country throughout most of it's history, being unified for short periods which is the opposite of China. It wasn't until the British came in that the country was unified as what we know it today.

Every state have their own language and culture. And although they mostly share the same religion(Hinduism), the nature of that religion is such that everyone worships pretty much different gods and celebrate different festival. The food is also different at different parts of the country, at least that's what I've been told, frankly speaking I can't tell the freaking difference. So yeah there will always be a huge difference. It will probably take centuries to make them similar