No Basis for S'pore Opposition Parties to Mimic M'sian Opposition Coalition

[metalmickey]

Well, "Peasants, despite their inferior stock, do not like "elites" from on high, or sages on stages, preaching to them" is exactly the point I was trying to make.

As for SDP / Chee is not going to solve your problems, people haven't really been following what the SDP has been saying in the last couple of years about reforms to health care, or reforms to housing. It just goes in one ear and out the other. You can put out the best policies, best papers in the world, and people will only see the hunger strike that Chee made 20 years ago. Logic - not really important. what's really important is your gut reactions to the SDP. Meet the people session - you know that if you were to reform the economy, a lot of people will have their money problems solved at one stroke, you wouldn't ever have to go to the meet the people session, begging bowl in hand, and have politicians hold you hand, look you in the eye and make you empty promises.

Jufrie - he shouldn't have said that. I agree with him 100% but he shouldn't have said that.

 

[kingrant]

As in the coalition proposal to WP? If WP wins, they got to manage the TC and SDP got to sit in parliament and TCSS?

Thta's what is unpalatable about you guys. Why dont you come to grips with reality and do some hard work on the ground and soil your hands and grow some calluses to show where and how theory meets practical, and where the rubber meets the road?

Even Dr Goh Keng Swee an eminent economist has to show results to gain a folowership; LKY made Lim Kim San build cheap mass housing so that his Party could get elected with an overwhelming victory. There is no shortcut. Even if Chee has far superior brains than LKY, he still has to show that he can produce results. So far, there hasnt been any.

if you were to reform the economy, a lot of people will have their money problems solved at one stroke, you wouldn't ever have to go to the meet the people session, begging bowl in hand, and have politicians hold you hand, look you in the eye and make you empty promises.

 

[metalmickey]

You'll have to ask the SDP that. Not everybody who wants to vote for the SDP is the SDP.

 

[aurvandil]

The loss in Holland Bukit Timah had nothing to do with CSJ. It was because of VW. Study after study shows that while Singaporeans are tolerant of gay people, they are not able to accept them in positions of leadership. They will therefore not vote for a team with a gay candidate regardless of how talented the person might be. If they had fielded someone like PT, there is a good chance SDP might have won Holland Bukit Timah.

That being said, CSJ and VW are important symbols of SDP. Love him or hate him, Singaporeans feel sorry and disgusted at the way PAP destroyed CSJ and his family. VW on the other hand is a symbol of all in Singapore who have suffered because they do not fit into the PAP's model of an ideal family as enshrined in their HDB policy. The optimum strategy would therefore to keep them in key SDP leadership positions but NOT field them as candidates.The Not In My Backyard mentality of most Singaporeans will mean SDP will be able to win many middle ground votes. At the same time, they will also retain the support of their traditional supporters.

SDP had its chance in GE2011 when it put up a team comprising VW, TJS, AYG and Michelle, yet it still lost with nearly 40% of votes garnered. The team fought in Holland-Bkt Timah in a straight fight with PAP. The ward consists of richer middle class whose stomachs are full, and if anything, idealogy ought to have appealed to the voters there. But it did not. What does that tell you? Team was as you wished, SDP came with idealogy (ies), yet they didnt break 40%.

 

[metalmickey]

Yeah - I forgot to mention "too gay for you".

It's a very Singaporean thing, people love outward appearances. There's this tendency to equate grassroots work with "doing hard work on the ground". And as for the dirty politicking and backstabbing of policy making - just "airy fairy ideas" or "talk cock sing song". Doesn't really matter that it's government policies which actually have a real impact on your life - grassroots is just a song and dance carnival, kissing babies, and walking home with more of a spring in your step.

All the people you mentioned - your Lim Kin Sans and Goh Keng Swees can also be compared with WP to make WP look inferior, you realise that. WP - 7 seats won. What have they built, other than a larger headquarters? But I'm not going to make that comparison because I know that it's unfair. These sort of unfair comparisons are only to be made if you want to diss the SDP.

VW - I don't know. I think he has great talents as a politician. I can understand people saying that CSJ should never stand for elections. But when it comes to being articulate and having charisma, VW has it. Too bad he's gay, although you shouldn't count that against him too much. Attitudes towards gay people are changing very very rapidly and I will not rule out that by the time of 2016, a major Asian country would have legalised gay marriage.

 

[kingrant]

Exactly my point. Here again, perhaps SDP was too presumptious that the voters share its values and perspectives. Why not SDP slow down to make sure the people can follow them instead of charging alone all out there in front?

The loss in Holland Bukit Timah had nothing to do with CSJ. It was because of VW. Study after study shows that while Singaporeans are tolerant of gay people, they are not able to accept them in positions of leadership. They will therefore not vote for a team with a gay candidate regardless of how talented the person might be. If they had fielded someone like PT, there is a good chance SDP might have won Holland Bukit Timah.

That being said, CSJ and VW are important symbols of SDP. Love him or hate him, Singaporeans feel sorry and disgusted at the way PAP destroyed him and his family. VW on the other hand is a symbol of all in Singapore who have suffered because they do not fit into the PAP's model of an ideal family as enshrined in their HDB policy. The optimum strategy would therefore to keep them in key SDP leadership positions but NOT field them as candidates.The Not In My Backyard mentality of most Singaporeans will mean SDP will be able to win many middle ground votes. At the same time, they will also retain the support of their traditional supporters.

 

[kingrant]

I did admit that SDP could be accepted if they changed their tactics. You cant be thick-headed if you want votes. You have got to listen and play the game so they understand you.

Take for example, LTK taking that plunge to leave HG for the uncertain fight at Aljunied GRC. I thought he put it very nicely over to the voters to choose very carefully - those in HG and esp those in Aljunied. He risked it all: either he sinks both boats or he expands his fleet. The people were very much resonant with him and WP. The promise was for a First World parliament. Now that is also quite abstract, but somehow he translated it into what it will cost the voters at HG and the gains of a GRC. So abstractness has to be translated into matters that voters can grasp.

Not dissing SDP as I have conceded that if led by men who know where to fight,what to fight over, and how, it can succeed. Otherwise, as they say, if you keep on doing the same things over and over, you will get the same outcomes over and over.

Yeah - I forgot to mention "too gay for you".

It's a very Singaporean thing, people love outward appearances. There's this tendency to equate grassroots work with "doing hard work on the ground". And as for the dirty politicking and backstabbing of policy making - just "airy fairy ideas" or "talk cock sing song". Doesn't really matter that it's government policies which actually have a real impact on your life - grassroots is just a song and dance carnival, kissing babies, and walking home with more of a spring in your step.

All the people you mentioned - your Lim Kin Sans and Goh Keng Swees can also be compared with WP to make WP look inferior, you realise that. WP - 7 seats won. What have they built, other than a larger headquarters? But I'm not going to make that comparison because I know that it's unfair. These sort of unfair comparisons are only to be made if you want to diss the SDP.

 

[metalmickey]

In the end it's down to 2016. And even if they don't survive as a political organisation and all their policy makers get cannibalised by the WP - maybe that's not so bad either.

 

[ray_of_hope]

The loss in Holland Bukit Timah had nothing to do with CSJ. It was because of VW. Study after study shows that while Singaporeans are tolerant of gay people, they are not able to accept them in positions of leadership. They will therefore not vote for a team with a gay candidate regardless of how talented the person might be. If they had fielded someone like PT, there is a good chance SDP might have won Holland Bukit Timah.

Very interesting. From what I've been told, most of the wealthy voters in the GRC -- in the condos and landed properties -- were perfectly fine with VW. But most of the voters in the HDB estates -- who made up the bulk of the GRC's voters -- did not share that view. The question is whether this issue will continue to dog him into the next GE? This is an issue that has conveniently not been addressed.

 

[metalmickey]

The loss in Holland Bukit Timah had nothing to do with CSJ. It was because of VW. Study after study shows that while Singaporeans are tolerant of gay people, they are not able to accept them in positions of leadership. They will therefore not vote for a team with a gay candidate regardless of how talented the person might be. If they had fielded someone like PT, there is a good chance SDP might have won Holland Bukit Timah.

Study after study shows that SINGAPOREANS IN GENERAL are tolerant of gay people but do not accept them in leadership positions. (But if you're working for Hyflux too fucking bad for you.)

But if you take that segment of Bukit Timah people - what would that be like? Have the Queenstown people rejected SDP due to unfamiliarity? I personally don't believe VW's orientation is the only issue. Anyway, the next time they can context Tanjong Pagar where there are also a lot of condo and landed properties people and see how the people there feel.

 

[aurvandil]

With the benefit of hindsight, what SDP should have done seems obvious. They should have put PT on the ticket and got VW to speak at the rallies. Instead they put VW on the ticket on got PT to speak at the rallies.

Very interesting. From what I've been told, most of the wealthy voters in the GRC -- in the condos and landed properties -- were perfectly fine with VW. But most of the voters in the HDB estates -- who made up the bulk of the GRC's voters -- did not share that view. The question is whether this issue will continue to dog him into the next GE? This is an issue that has conveniently not been addressed.

 

[metalmickey]

The timing is problematic. I think at that point in time, Paul Thambyah was only willing to speak at rallies, rather than put himself forward as a candidate. It's not a small thing for a professor at a local uni to join the opposition, that is sticking your neck out in a big big way. Think about how Cherian George got fucked recently.

 

[ray_of_hope]

The timing is problematic. I think at that point in time, Paul Thambyah was only willing to speak at rallies, rather than put himself forward as a candidate. It's not a small thing for a professor at a local uni to join the opposition, that is sticking your neck out in a big big way. Think about how Cherian George got fucked recently.

Yes, timing is everything, so it would seem. PT is a nice man, and a person who makes good sense. I wonder however whether the moment may have passed for him. The last GE might have been his best chance, if he had been fielded. Still, politics, by its nature, will have its continued twists and turns.

 

[jw5]

No one is questioning intent which is altruistic. Chee is a very poor politician who never engages the voter. When he was recently discharged from bankruptcy he headed straight for Yale. It tells you that he has not learnt anything in the last 20 years.

Ever heard of LTK heading to Yale? Are the Angmos going to vote for him? Have you been to a SDP celebratory function? Have you been to a WP celebratory function. It is as different as chalk from cheese.

LOL. Praising LTK again to try and get popularity?
You recently made a bogus allegation that BOTH LTK and CSJ are pap agents.

Rather than abusing you for being cunning and manipulative, let me explain simply why it's not logical that they are.

LTK's team has made more inroads into parliament than any other opposition politician has. Even to the extent that to try and prevent the possible loss of 5 seats, LHL had to apologise a few days before polling day, as you point out so often in trying to get annonymous internet monikers on your side.
If LTK was a pap agent who could "fix the opposition", would someone as arrogant and high and mighty as pinky have to stoop and apologise?

The pap have always been very concerned about their face in the world, especially to first world countries and their leaders.
Would they ever allow one of their own, to write the books that CSJ has and go on his overseas jaunts to criticise them repeatedly, sometimes going down to the very core of what has gone wrong with the country as a result of being under pap?

All these is Logic101.
What Scroobal is dishing out is Manipulation101. He knows that by tainting these 2 guys, the 2 major opposition parties will be tainted, and it will not even matter who else is contesting on their ticket. This is the bombshell that pap loyalists would use, when all else fails for them and they sense impending defeat. Of course, when they sense a minor defeat, they may start threads to taint the new candidate, like what Scroobal did to CSM before GE 2011.

One more thing. Don't ever believe those former establishment henchmen who have served the establishment for years or taken benefits from them, and suddenly after they leave the establishment, claim to detest them and now want to prove their absurd "credibility" online so that you have to believe their every word, including those that they use to sabotage the opposition at the opportune moment.

 

[Thick Face Black Heart]

OK cosmos.

Even I grant you everything u have written in this post, the fact remains that even sdp did not really talk about human rights issues and isa during ge2011.

Even sdp knows in singapore, human Rights issues are not the vote winning topics. And if you position yourself even slightly off, you only invite unnecessary attacks on yourself.

We have to be pragmatic.

It is one thing to agree and give lip service only. It is totally another thing to believe it truly enough to fight for it, like the SDP does. All true democratic ideals have to be fought for because no dictator would ever give them away freely and easily.

Take the example of the ISA, till this day, I have never heard LTK fought against the ISA. Earlier this year, in February 2013, LTK (and all the WP MPs) were absent during the 50th anniversary of the Operation Coldstore. Like it or not, the Operation Coldstore will always be a part of Singapore's dark history that cannot be conveniently swept under the carpet. LTK seemed to be too "atas" and "ashamed" to be associated with our former political detainees. If a politician is NOT against the ISA, I have a legitimate reason to doubt his sincerity and belief of the Human Rights Law. Nobody should be above the law. Also, nobody should be "below" the law and not be given a fair trial in our Courts. If LTK is NOT against the ISA now, will I have faith to trust that he will not misuse the ISA, if given a chance in the future, just like the PAP did?




Please be fair to the SDP. The SDP has always fought for the bread and butter issues for Singaporeans. The important point to note is that ideology and bread and butter issues are NOT mutually exclusive. They go hand in hand. Good ideology leads to good bread and butter outcomes. It is the WP, because they do NOT have good ideology, who claim that bread and butter issues are the ONLY important issues. Come on, the SDP has to-date, put up detailed proposals on Housing, Healthcare, Population, Shadow Budget, etc. Please tell me, are these not bread and butter issues?

 

[aurvandil]

Demographically, the moment has not passed him. Malaysia is the best forecast of what is likely to happen in Singapore. We are a good 10 years behind because of the accidental demographic bust caused by the PAP's 2 is enough.

2011 is therefore just the initial cracking. The PAP should be able to hang on in 2016 although it is likely to lose its 2/3 majority. It will only be in 2021 that we will be where Malaysia is now where regime change is the most likely outcome barring massive electoral fraud.

Yes, timing is everything, so it would seem. PT is a nice man, and a person who makes good sense. I wonder however whether the moment may have passed for him. The last GE might have been his best chance, if he had been fielded. Still, politics, by its nature, will have its continued twists and turns.

 

[metalmickey]

The pap have always been very concerned about their face in the world, especially to first world countries and their leaders.
Would they ever allow one of their own, to write the books that CSJ has and go on his overseas jaunts to criticise them repeatedly, sometimes going down to the very core of what has gone wrong with the country as a result of being under pap?

One more thing. Don't ever believe those former establishment henchmen who have served the establishment for years or taken benefits from them, and suddenly after they leave the establishment, claim to detest them and now want to prove their absurd "credibility" online so that you have to believe their every word, including those that they use to sabotage the opposition at the opportune moment.

Yes - this is one reason why I don't ever begrudge CSJ going overseas to kaopeh about Singapore's human rights records. Overseas critics of Singapore are an extremely important constituency, and they are an important reason why the PAP leadership feel they have less scope to fix opposition people. He's done a lot of service in a very indirect way that I'm not sure people really appreciate.

As for former establishment henchmen, I don't know what category you'd consider Tan Jee Say to fall under. Do you think he's a mole? Then there's Paul Thambyah who's a professor, there's Ngiam Tong Dow, there's Donald Low, there's Yeoh Lam Keong. What do you make of such people?

 

[metalmickey]

OK cosmos.

Even I grant you everything u have written in this post, the fact remains that even sdp did not really talk about human rights issues and isa during ge2011.

Even sdp knows in singapore, human Rights issues are not the vote winning topics. And if you position yourself even slightly off, you only invite unnecessary attacks on yourself.

We have to be pragmatic.

Actually I've attended some SDP rallies and I remember that VW talked about Operation Spectrum. Then there's Teo Soh Lung, who kenna buak by Grace Fu, no doubt, but they were willing to field a political detainee to make a point. They also roped in Vincent Cheng to make 1 or 2 speeches.

The Worker's party, even though they weren't going to directly talk about human rights also touched upon how they were given the short end of the stick on municipal issues. How they were being unfairly treated by the people's association. How the PAP tried to punish people who voted in the opposition in Hougang. The SPP rallies also talked about Chiam See Tong's experiences dealing with the bureaucracy, and how they forced him to conduct his MPS in the void deck.

What people were not willing to fathom at that point in time was public demonstrations of the kind that Chee Soon Juan was involved in. That soon changed with the public protest in Hong Lim Park over the population white paper. It used to be that speaker's corner was some kind of a sham, but people are not saying that anymore

 

[Thick Face Black Heart]

All these are issues of political faireness and need for a level playing field. Definitely relevant to the electorate.

These are not the kind of human rights abstraction championed by champagne socialites.

The Worker's party, even though they weren't going to directly talk about human rights also touched upon how they were given the short end of the stick on municipal issues. How they were being unfairly treated by the people's association. How the PAP tried to punish people who voted in the opposition in Hougang. The SPP rallies also talked about Chiam See Tong's experiences dealing with the bureaucracy, and how they forced him to conduct his MPS in the void deck.

What people were not willing to fathom at that point in time was public demonstrations of the kind that Chee Soon Juan was involved in. That soon changed with the public protest in Hong Lim Park over the population white paper. It used to be that speaker's corner was some kind of a sham, but people are not saying that anymore

 

[jw5]

Yes - this is one reason why I don't ever begrudge CSJ going overseas to kaopeh about Singapore's human rights records. Overseas critics of Singapore are an extremely important constituency, and they are an important reason why the PAP leadership feel they have less scope to fix opposition people. He's done a lot of service in a very indirect way that I'm not sure people really appreciate.

As for former establishment henchmen, I don't know what category you'd consider Tan Jee Say to fall under. Do you think he's a mole? Then there's Paul Thambyah who's a professor, there's Ngiam Tong Dow, there's Donald Low, there's Yeoh Lam Keong. What do you make of such people?

Glad you see the point about CSJ. Those with establishment mentality will merely see it as him not winning election seats, so he must be a hindrance. More likely than not, those who are strongly against him hate him as much as the pappies, and are trying to taint him. My word, if winning election seats are the only thing we are concerned about, then go join the pap and ask to be put in a safe grc.

I have never liked TJS for being the PPS to GCT when he was PM. It's not as if he was a director in the ministry of information or something like that, i.e. merely serving his duty as a civil servant. He was at the very core of what happened to the country. But at least, he comes out in the open now and he is not under the hidden veil of annonymity, so he can be judged for everything he says and does. Just don't trust those former establishment henchmen who served in certain "key" positions and now being ex, suddenly detests the establishment, using annonymous internet monikers to claim some absurd "credibility".

One question to ask them is this:" If you detest them so much, why serve so long in that type of position?"
I may just ask an internet moniker this question soon.