Median household income vs HDB Resale

[makapaaa]

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Coffeeshop Chit Chat - Median household income vs HDB Resale</TD><TD id=msgunetc noWrap align=right> </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE class=msgtable cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="96%"><TBODY><TR><TD class=msg vAlign=top><TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%"><TBODY><TR class=msghead><TD class=msgbfr1 width="1%"> </TD><TD><TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0><TBODY><TR class=msghead vAlign=top><TD class=msgF width="1%" noWrap align=right>From: </TD><TD class=msgFname width="68%" noWrap>kojakbt_89 <NOBR></NOBR> </TD><TD class=msgDate width="30%" noWrap align=right>12:14 am </TD></TR><TR class=msghead><TD class=msgT height=20 width="1%" noWrap align=right>To: </TD><TD class=msgTname width="68%" noWrap>ALL <NOBR></NOBR></TD><TD class=msgNum noWrap align=right> (1 of 5) </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD class=msgleft rowSpan=4 width="1%"> </TD><TD class=wintiny noWrap align=right>36191.1 </TD></TR><TR><TD height=8></TD></TR><TR><TD class=msgtxt>

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[longbow]

Good data.

Means resale price about 5 to 5.5 times annual household income. SOunds pretty good to me. But Singaporeans also have access to new flats from HDB. There the prices are even more affordable, especially with grants.

To me, there are 4 issues:

1) Build more BTO to meet demand - they are currently doing that but still cannot meet demand. Ramp up even more BTOs. True that HDB underestimated the numbers but I can see they are buying ramping up the numbers.

2) Offer rental flats for those who are married and have booked a flat. During the wait for their flat to be built, couples can move into equivalent type HDB flats equipped with kitchens, wardrobes and aircon. These are item cannot be moved to the new flat so no point making the renter pay. But stuff like fridge, washing machine beds, sofa, renters have to buy but they can use in new flat. This of course will help in getting couples to start having kids early.

3) Priority for Singaporeans who have done NS and those who have special medical reasons not to have to do NS. These people should have priority over the newly minted Singaporean (the new Singaporeans can also get this priority HDB IF they do NS).

4) do not artificially control HDB prices. Allow them to be priced as per market. Given the increase in FT ( PM Lee is asking for another 100K this year). But give Singaporeans grants to help offset the market prices. Given pop increase and limited land, housing price is sure to go up. If you compare to ANY busy city, prices are high. Of course cannot compare to Australia - whole country only 20M + people. Compare to big bustling cities, HK, Taipei, Toyko, London, NYC, SF, Shanghai - all are costly.

 

[1sickpuppy II]

Good data.

Means resale price about 5 to 5.5 times annual household income. SOunds pretty good to me. But Singaporeans also have access to new flats from HDB. There the prices are even more affordable, especially with grants.

To me, there are 4 issues:

1) Build more BTO to meet demand - they are currently doing that but still cannot meet demand. Ramp up even more BTOs. True that HDB underestimated the numbers but I can see they are buying ramping up the numbers.

2) Offer rental flats for those who are married and have booked a flat. During the wait for their flat to be built, couples can move into equivalent type HDB flats equipped with kitchens, wardrobes and aircon. These are item cannot be moved to the new flat so no point making the renter pay. But stuff like fridge, washing machine beds, sofa, renters have to buy but they can use in new flat. This of course will help in getting couples to start having kids early.

3) Priority for Singaporeans who have done NS and those who have special medical reasons not to have to do NS. These people should have priority over the newly minted Singaporean (the new Singaporeans can also get this priority HDB IF they do NS).

4) do not artificially control HDB prices. Allow them to be priced as per market. Given the increase in FT ( PM Lee is asking for another 100K this year). But give Singaporeans grants to help offset the market prices. Given pop increase and limited land, housing price is sure to go up. If you compare to ANY busy city, prices are high. Of course cannot compare to Australia - whole country only 20M + people. Compare to big bustling cities, HK, Taipei, Toyko, London, NYC, SF, Shanghai - all are costly.

These are all good and nice plans but it does not profit the current govt very much. Infact some of these plans might cause they to loose money so my guess is WAIT LONG LONG

 

[knightriderz]

Notice dat median hsehold income shows bare increment but resale prices shows huge increment? Means nw resale LESS affordable

 

[Aussie Prick]

Good data.

Means resale price about 5 to 5.5 times annual household income. SOunds pretty good to me. But Singaporeans also have access to new flats from HDB. There the prices are even more affordable, especially with grants.

Of course cannot compare to Australia - whole country only 20M + people. Compare to big bustling cities, HK, Taipei, Toyko, London, NYC, SF, Shanghai - all are costly.

Of course cannot compare with Australia - where you need 8-9X annual income to afford the median property with 10% GST on top and many hidden tax as well.

We should be lucky and thankful we are not in Australia - most expensive property in West now.

http://www.demographia.com/dhi.pdf

 

[bryanlim1972]

Notice dat median hsehold income shows bare increment but resale prices shows huge increment? Means nw resale LESS affordable

knightriderz: i think you spotted the real issue here - why is median household income not rising fast enough?

property price appreciation in itself is not a bad thing. given that most of singaporean households own their properties, on paper, price appreciation is a good thing.

the problem arises when household incomes don't rise fast enough to match the rate of ppty price increase.

but recent economic numbers have shown growth. we have to assume the numbers are accurate and recorded according to international standards. so this begets the question: where has the growth gone to?

aside: ministers salaries are pegged to economic growth. thus we can say the ministers measurable KPIs include economic growth. they have obviously met their KPIs. i would suggest their KPIs should include lowering the income inequality of singaporeans; gini coefficient or other measures can be used.

so where has the growth gone?

or where has the growth come from?

it would be interesting if kojakbt_89 could plot income growth according to income bracket. i strongly believe growth at the lower income brackets could be stagnant or marginal at best. while growth at the higher brackets would be stronger.

 

[kojakbt]

Good data.

Means resale price about 5 to 5.5 times annual household income. SOunds pretty good to me.

[COLOR=_______]Bro, this is about the max a household can afford under the recommendations of UNCHS. In this report, a Price to Income ratio of 5 and above is considered high and beyond the means of a typical family:

http://www.unhabitat.org/downloads/docs/GRHS.1996.2.pdf

Comparing ourselves as recent as 5 years ago. Life was better. HDB resales was very affordable going by the ratio measurement. Quality of life of Singaporeans in Singapore has gotten worse since 2006. One must ask the question why???[/COLOR]

1) Build more BTO to meet demand - they are currently doing that but still cannot meet demand. Ramp up even more BTOs. True that HDB underestimated the numbers but I can see they are buying ramping up the numbers.

[COLOR=_______]In the past, young couples have the options to buy HDB resales. But now, that option is closed. Hence, young couples will have no choice but to wait for the cheaper BTOs... it's no wonder people going for BTOs now... their only option left...

I tell you bro, if PAP priced BTOs even at median ratio of 5 or more, there will be a revolution at hand...[/COLOR]

3) Priority for Singaporeans who have done NS and those who have special medical reasons not to have to do NS. These people should have priority over the newly minted Singaporean (the new Singaporeans can also get this priority HDB IF they do NS).

I'm sure PAP dogs like Sinha will protest... HAHAHA!

Given pop increase and limited land, housing price is sure to go up. If you compare to ANY busy city, prices are high. Of course cannot compare to Australia - whole country only 20M + people. Compare to big bustling cities, HK, Taipei, Toyko, London, NYC, SF, Shanghai - all are costly.

[COLOR=_______]Bro, you have taken in too many PAP propaganda liao. True, Singapore is a country, but it's also a city. And true, our city is one of the densest in terms of pop in the world.
[/COLOR] [COLOR=_______]
BUT, THERE IS ONE BIG DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SINGAPORE AND BUSY CITIES LIKE London, Tokyo, NYC etc. They have surrounding suburb for the city dwellers to migrate to if the city centers are too expensive. So, people like in Tokyo, they may be living in suburbs of Tokyo, commuting to Tokyo center by 1-2 hours fast train everyday to work. Same goes for NYC. typical New Yorkers can't afford to live in Manhatten. They in fact live in another state close to NYC - New Jersey and commute to work everyday. Hence, by doing this, people can still afford to buy relatively cheaper housing compared to those in city centers.

You ask yourself, where can Singaporeans move to if our housings on this island becomes unaffordable? Move to the sea?
[/COLOR]

 

[kojakbt]

Notice dat median hsehold income shows bare increment but resale prices shows huge increment? Means nw resale LESS affordable

In fact, median household income dropped in 2009 !!

Median Monthly Household Income
2007 $4,375
2008 $4,946
2009 $4,850

 

[kojakbt]

knightriderz: i think you spotted the real issue here - why is median household income not rising fast enough?

When you have tonnes of cheap FTs flooding Singapore competing with Singaporeans AT ALL LEVELS, do you think our wages can increase?

Sure, employers like GLCs may be happy but what about the people?

I'm in the IT industry. I can tell you, IT programmers' salaries have more or less remained stagnant or even regressed in the last few years.

Ask yourself why!

Hint: Just go to citibank or RBS inside to take a look....

or where has the growth come from?

A large part of it comes from "humans being thrown into the economy"... it's human capital induced growth... go figure...

it would be interesting if kojakbt_89 could plot income growth according to income bracket. i strongly believe growth at the lower income brackets could be stagnant or marginal at best. while growth at the higher brackets would be stronger.

Let me dig around

 

[kojakbt]

it would be interesting if kojakbt_89 could plot income growth according to income bracket. i strongly believe growth at the lower income brackets could be stagnant or marginal at best. while growth at the higher brackets would be stronger.

<table x:str="" style="border-collapse: collapse; width: 234pt;" width="310" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><col style="width: 48pt;" width="64"> <col style="width: 62pt;" width="82" span="3"> <tbody><tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl23" colspan="4" style="height: 12.75pt; width: 234pt;" width="310" height="17">Average Monthly Employed Household Income by Decile</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td colspan="4" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">http://www.singstat.gov.sg/pubn/papers/people/op-s16.pdf</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">
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</td> <td class="xl23" x:num="" align="right">2007</td> <td class="xl23" x:num="" align="right">2008</td> <td class="xl23" x:num="" align="right">2009</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">1st</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="1221" align="right"> 1,221 </td> <td class="xl22" x:num="1312" align="right"> 1,312 </td> <td class="xl22" x:num="1303" align="right"> 1,303 </td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">2nd</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="2238" align="right"> 2,238 </td> <td class="xl22" x:num="2479" align="right"> 2,479 </td> <td class="xl22" x:num="2459" align="right"> 2,459 </td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">3rd</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="3039" align="right"> 3,039 </td> <td class="xl22" x:num="3425" align="right"> 3,425 </td> <td class="xl22" x:num="3472" align="right"> 3,472 </td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">4th</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="3974" align="right"> 3,974 </td> <td class="xl22" x:num="4426" align="right"> 4,426 </td> <td class="xl22" x:num="4424" align="right"> 4,424 </td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">5th</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="4904" align="right"> 4,904 </td> <td class="xl22" x:num="5456" align="right"> 5,456 </td> <td class="xl22" x:num="5354" align="right"> 5,354 </td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">6th</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="5884" align="right"> 5,884 </td> <td class="xl22" x:num="6732" align="right"> 6,732 </td> <td class="xl22" x:num="6599" align="right"> 6,599 </td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">7th</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="7139" align="right"> 7,139 </td> <td class="xl22" x:num="8038" align="right"> 8,038 </td> <td class="xl22" x:num="7969" align="right"> 7,969 </td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">8th</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="8725" align="right"> 8,725 </td> <td class="xl22" x:num="9720" align="right"> 9,720 </td> <td class="xl22" x:num="9559" align="right"> 9,559 </td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">9th</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="11330" align="right"> 11,330 </td> <td class="xl22" x:num="12914" align="right"> 12,914 </td> <td class="xl22" x:num="12290" align="right"> 12,290 </td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">10th</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="20441" align="right"> 20,441 </td> <td class="xl22" x:num="23023" align="right"> 23,023 </td> <td class="xl22" x:num="22062" align="right"> 22,062 </td> </tr> </tbody></table>