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Coffeeshop Chit Chat - MahTheFucker challenged on HDB prices!</TD><TD id=msgunetc noWrap align=right> </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE class=msgtable cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="96%"><TBODY><TR><TD class=msg vAlign=top><TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%"><TBODY><TR class=msghead><TD class=msgbfr1 width="1%"> </TD><TD><TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0><TBODY><TR class=msghead vAlign=top><TD class=msgF width="1%" noWrap align=right>From: </TD><TD class=msgFname width="68%" noWrap>Fkapore <NOBR></NOBR> </TD><TD class=msgDate width="30%" noWrap align=right>1:52 am </TD></TR><TR class=msghead><TD class=msgT height=20 width="1%" noWrap align=right>To: </TD><TD class=msgTname width="68%" noWrap>ALL <NOBR></NOBR></TD><TD class=msgNum noWrap align=right> (1 of 2) </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD class=msgleft rowSpan=4 width="1%"> </TD><TD class=wintiny noWrap align=right>33194.1 </TD></TR><TR><TD height=8></TD></TR><TR><TD class=msgtxt>
Mr Minister, a nice home with nice view now please
May 16th, 2010 |
Author: Your Correspondent Temasek Review
Dear Mr Mah,
I refer to your interview by Straits Times as reported on 7 Apr 2010.
You said that from 1999 to 2001, household incomes rose while home prices fell. However, you omitted to say that immediately after that, from 2001 to 2003, household incomes fell while home prices rose. In fact, given the roller coaster prices, a person who bought in 1999 would have paid more than someone who bought just two years later in 2001. Another person who bought two years after that, in 2003 would also have paid more than the one who bought in 2001 even though it might be the same flat. Because of roller coaster prices, people have ended up paying more for nothing either by buying too early or too late. Is this state of affairs desirable? Are you encouraging couples to time their marriage according to property cycles?
You said household incomes and home prices inched up in tandem from 2001 to 2006. That’s not true, using 2001 as the starting base, from 2001 to 2006, home price indices have consistently been higher than their corresponding household income indices.
You said both indicators rose sharply from 2006 to 2008. Again that is not accurate. Using 2006 as the starting base, from 2006 to 2008, home prices have again outstripped household incomes and by quite a large margin too.
Therefore, what you say is not true. If we break up the decade as you have done so, we find that prices have not moved in tandem with income over the last 10 years. In fact, if we use 2001 as the starting base, home price indices have always been higher than their corresponding household income indices.
You concede that there is some housing demand due to PRs but you have not acknowledged the fact that the great majority of PRs who are renting units or rooms are also contributing to housing demand. You said improving economy leads to higher prices but last year was recession year and prices went up just the same. In fact, during the SARs year of 2003, home prices also went up. These are some of the examples that invalidate the factors you attribute for the huge increase in prices.
You ask whoever can do a better job to come forward. Whoever comes forward, it would be difficult for him to do any worse than you already have.
You said so many things have changed over the last four decades so you don’t want to compare with 40 years ago. You are right, 40 years ago, we had Goh Keng Swee which was why flats were cheap. 40 years later, we have you and now flats are so expensive.
You said 12,000 flats are sold every year but Ms Chua Mui Hoong of Straits Times once calculated that there is a potential 95,600 buyers of HDB flats. The large discrepancy between supply and demand is simply too glaring not to be noticed.
You said the average HDB mortgage is ‘healthy’ because it meets ‘international’ standards. But a recent study by NUS revealed that our housing price to income ratio is comparable only to some of he most expensive cities in the world like Hong Kong and London. Also, time and again, the statistics you provide show that despite meeting ‘healthy’ international standards, buyers of 3-room flats typically have nothing left over whatsoever for retirement. No wonder they are forced to sell their flats back to the government for retirement.
It is clear that you did not tell the entire truth and for some people, that is akin to lying. You do not need to fudge figures to tell lies, you just need to selectively pick figures to distort the truth.
Stop blaming Singaporeans’ rising expectations. Stop blaming Singaporeans for your own inadequacies. Start recognising that prices have indeed went out of control.
No point repeating your grandmother story about your past. The more you speak about your past, the more it contrasts with your current wealth and status, the more it portrays you as someone who has rossed the river and then burnt the bridge.
You said people of your generation started small but upgraded later. It was precisely because prices were much lower then that the burden wasn’t so great so that the realisation of a home was much easier. But with each upgrade comes higher prices with the burden of the upgrade falling upon the shoulders of the next generation. That burden keeps piling and piling onto future generations until it has become totally unbearable. This is like the ponzi scheme that cannot be sustained indefinitely.
You said it is unfortunate that buyers want their ideal flat the moment they get married. Lim Kim San never had qualms about that. He built so many flats so quickly it really puts you to shame.
You said HDB has made many hard choices over the last four decades that have been proven right. With that, you are basking in the lime light of your predecessors. Ask yourself, what have you ever done right as a minister?
You said without a home, we wouldn’t do national service, we wouldn’t fight for Singapore. But you look at the PRs with a home here. Would they do national service? Would they fight for Singapore? So having a home doesn’t necessarily mean that they would therefore serve NS and fight for Singapore.
You said the HDB looks after the whole life cycle. But it is doing a terrible job keeping prices affordable. If the price is affordable to begin with, then there will be no need to sell the flat back to the government, there will be no need for the whole life cycle.
You remind Singaporeans that we used to live in kampungs. Perhaps for some who have found HDB flats exobitantly pricey now, they might prefer to stay in kampungs if that meant much cheaper housing. You said life doesn’t hand things to us on a silver platter. But you and your HDB have been handing Singaporeans IOUs that make us pay for the rest of our lives without having to keep our homes in the end for
some.
Thank you
Ng Kok Lim
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Mr Minister, a nice home with nice view now please
Dear Mr Mah,
I refer to your interview by Straits Times as reported on 7 Apr 2010.
You said that from 1999 to 2001, household incomes rose while home prices fell. However, you omitted to say that immediately after that, from 2001 to 2003, household incomes fell while home prices rose. In fact, given the roller coaster prices, a person who bought in 1999 would have paid more than someone who bought just two years later in 2001. Another person who bought two years after that, in 2003 would also have paid more than the one who bought in 2001 even though it might be the same flat. Because of roller coaster prices, people have ended up paying more for nothing either by buying too early or too late. Is this state of affairs desirable? Are you encouraging couples to time their marriage according to property cycles?
You said household incomes and home prices inched up in tandem from 2001 to 2006. That’s not true, using 2001 as the starting base, from 2001 to 2006, home price indices have consistently been higher than their corresponding household income indices.
You said both indicators rose sharply from 2006 to 2008. Again that is not accurate. Using 2006 as the starting base, from 2006 to 2008, home prices have again outstripped household incomes and by quite a large margin too.
Therefore, what you say is not true. If we break up the decade as you have done so, we find that prices have not moved in tandem with income over the last 10 years. In fact, if we use 2001 as the starting base, home price indices have always been higher than their corresponding household income indices.
You concede that there is some housing demand due to PRs but you have not acknowledged the fact that the great majority of PRs who are renting units or rooms are also contributing to housing demand. You said improving economy leads to higher prices but last year was recession year and prices went up just the same. In fact, during the SARs year of 2003, home prices also went up. These are some of the examples that invalidate the factors you attribute for the huge increase in prices.
You ask whoever can do a better job to come forward. Whoever comes forward, it would be difficult for him to do any worse than you already have.
You said so many things have changed over the last four decades so you don’t want to compare with 40 years ago. You are right, 40 years ago, we had Goh Keng Swee which was why flats were cheap. 40 years later, we have you and now flats are so expensive.
You said 12,000 flats are sold every year but Ms Chua Mui Hoong of Straits Times once calculated that there is a potential 95,600 buyers of HDB flats. The large discrepancy between supply and demand is simply too glaring not to be noticed.
You said the average HDB mortgage is ‘healthy’ because it meets ‘international’ standards. But a recent study by NUS revealed that our housing price to income ratio is comparable only to some of he most expensive cities in the world like Hong Kong and London. Also, time and again, the statistics you provide show that despite meeting ‘healthy’ international standards, buyers of 3-room flats typically have nothing left over whatsoever for retirement. No wonder they are forced to sell their flats back to the government for retirement.
It is clear that you did not tell the entire truth and for some people, that is akin to lying. You do not need to fudge figures to tell lies, you just need to selectively pick figures to distort the truth.
Stop blaming Singaporeans’ rising expectations. Stop blaming Singaporeans for your own inadequacies. Start recognising that prices have indeed went out of control.
No point repeating your grandmother story about your past. The more you speak about your past, the more it contrasts with your current wealth and status, the more it portrays you as someone who has rossed the river and then burnt the bridge.
You said people of your generation started small but upgraded later. It was precisely because prices were much lower then that the burden wasn’t so great so that the realisation of a home was much easier. But with each upgrade comes higher prices with the burden of the upgrade falling upon the shoulders of the next generation. That burden keeps piling and piling onto future generations until it has become totally unbearable. This is like the ponzi scheme that cannot be sustained indefinitely.
You said it is unfortunate that buyers want their ideal flat the moment they get married. Lim Kim San never had qualms about that. He built so many flats so quickly it really puts you to shame.
You said HDB has made many hard choices over the last four decades that have been proven right. With that, you are basking in the lime light of your predecessors. Ask yourself, what have you ever done right as a minister?
You said without a home, we wouldn’t do national service, we wouldn’t fight for Singapore. But you look at the PRs with a home here. Would they do national service? Would they fight for Singapore? So having a home doesn’t necessarily mean that they would therefore serve NS and fight for Singapore.
You said the HDB looks after the whole life cycle. But it is doing a terrible job keeping prices affordable. If the price is affordable to begin with, then there will be no need to sell the flat back to the government, there will be no need for the whole life cycle.
You remind Singaporeans that we used to live in kampungs. Perhaps for some who have found HDB flats exobitantly pricey now, they might prefer to stay in kampungs if that meant much cheaper housing. You said life doesn’t hand things to us on a silver platter. But you and your HDB have been handing Singaporeans IOUs that make us pay for the rest of our lives without having to keep our homes in the end for
some.
Thank you
Ng Kok Lim
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
