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Mah Bow Tan! This is what longtime PAP supporter said! PAP liao liao!

Debonerman

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http://theonlinecitizen.com/2011/04/long-time-pap-supporter-disappointed-with-mah/


Long-time PAP supporter disappointed with Mah
Posted by theonlinecitizen on April 25, 2011 42 Comments
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D Lim

I refer to Mr Mah Bow Tan’s rebuttal to WP’s proposal on pegging HDB prices to median salaries.

Let me preface my comment by saying that I have been an ardent supporter of PAP policies over the years, and I think they have done an exceptional job. However, for this particular issue, it appears that WP’s position is more intellectually pure than the PAP’s.

Indeed, Mr Mah’s response appears to be missing the woods for the trees. At the end of the day, we need to go back to basics – to what the fundamental mission of HDB is, and it is to provide affordable housing for the masses.

To determine the affordability of a house, we need to look at price vs salary. From this measure, HDB prices have become a lot more expensive over the years. For instance, in 1986, the starting salary of a graduate was about $1,400 per month (approximately), and a 4-room HDB flat cost around $65,000, resulting in a price to monthly salary ratio of about 46 times. Today, the average starting salary of a graduate is about $3,000 (generous estimate), and a 4-room HDB flat costs anywhere from $240k to about $572k (for the Peak @ Toa Payoh). This translates to a ratio of between 80 times to 190 times. Hence, from an affordability perspective, HDB flats today are about 1.7 to 4.1 times more expensive than in 1986..

This has resulted in many people having to stretch out their mortgage payments to 30 years (even in one of the lowest interest rate environments in history) in order to keep mortgage payments at an affordable level. Prudent financial planning guidelines typically advise that if you have to stretch out mortgage payments to 30 years in order to afford the monthly payments, you are probably buying a house that you can ill-afford.

PAP’s primary argument is that the subsidy is in the discount to market pricing. Well, the problem with this is that market prices are not linked to salaries (as market prices are also heavily influenced by offshore liquidity and general investor sentiment). Over the last 10 years, we have all seen the market go astray, in various asset classes and in various geographies. Hence, without a fundamental link to salaries, it is difficult to ensure that HDB flats will remain affordable (in fact, given the above examples, it is arguable that they currently are).

In his rebuttal, Mr Mah’s principal point is that lowering the primary market prices would lower resale market prices. This response appears to be populist and scare-mongering in nature, and skirts around addressing the fundamental issue. Is it important that resale prices are maintained? As a flat owner, I would say ‘Yes’. However, is it more central to the mission of HDB than providing affordable housing to the masses? Well, clearly no.

Beside, the link between primary property prices and resale market prices is a tenuous one, at best. The resale market is driven by supply and demand. If HDB is able to flood the market with cheap flats, then yes, resale market prices will collapse. But as long as the demand tension dynamics remain unchanged, the resale market prices should still hold, regardless of where the primary market flats are priced.

Mr Mah’s other point regarding home buyers switching to new homes instead of resale flats is again, a peripheral point that can easily be addressed via policy levers (first time owner priority etc).

Finally, his point on this being an illegal raid on the reserves is irrelevant and unnecessarily confuses the issue. The government makes spending decisions every day on policies which are in line with its policy goals. If affordable housing is a policy goal, then such subsidy is a necessary means to achieve the
goal.

In summary, as a long-time PAP supporter, it is somewhat disappointing that Mr Mah has chosen to skirt the issue and serve up populist appeals with scare-mongering tactics, rather than to seriously address a serious issue for thinking voters.
 

sense

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http://theonlinecitizen.com/2011/04/long-time-pap-supporter-disappointed-with-mah/
Long-time PAP supporter disappointed with Mah
Posted by theonlinecitizen on April 25, 2011 42 Comments
D Lim

Nicely written article that seems to make a lot of sense.

However, at least 2 questionable points for readers to ponder upon:
1. This article originates from theonlinecitizen.com
2. "D Lim" could well be one of the authors from the same website or one who writes well but is an existing anti-PAP. Fortunately, D Lim does not look like another mindless anti-Singapore.

large_The%20Exceptionists.jpg
 

Bigfuck

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Nicely written article that seems to make a lot of sense.

However, at least 2 questionable points for readers to ponder upon:
1. This article originates from theonlinecitizen.com
2. "D Lim" could well be one of the authors from the same website or one who writes well but is an existing anti-PAP. Fortunately, D Lim does not look like another mindless anti-Singapore.

large_The%20Exceptionists.jpg

The facts are not too questionable nor off the mark. It could have originated from the PAP sites and it still stands. The only questionable point is you PAP IB. If you and your sorry people come out to confront this issue in logical argument rather than play Bogey man and ISD, people may listen, if the argument is sufficiently convincing form facts and figures. But we know that the PAP cannot formulate arguments.
 

sense

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The facts are not too questionable nor off the mark. It could have originated from the PAP sites and it still stands. The only questionable point is you PAP IB. If you and your sorry people come out to confront this issue in logical argument rather than play Bogey man and ISD, people may listen, if the argument is sufficiently convincing form facts and figures. But we know that the PAP cannot formulate arguments.

You anti-PAPers need to have more confident about yourselves and the Alternative Parties instead of wallowing in perpetual pity assuming that everybody else in this world that does not always agree with any opposition parties 100% means that it's a pro-PAP.

Having said that, it is certainly the case that your guerilla tactics of slamming any forumers who do not blindly agree with the opposition point of views may do good to your ego good but will do more harm to the alternative parties. Period.

motivational-posters-289.jpg
 
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Bigfuck

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You anti-PAPers need to have more confident about yourselves and the Alternative Parties instead of wallowing in perpetual pity assuming that everybody else in this world that does not always agree with any opposition parties 100% means that it's a pro-PAP.

Having said that, it is certainly the case that your guerilla tactics of slamming any forumers who do not blindly agree with the opposition point of views may do good to your ego good but will do more harm to the alternative parties. Period.

motivational-posters-289.jpg

Nope. I would vote of Lily Neo if she ran SMC, even on a PAP flag. I likely will vote George Yeo on SMC terms as well.
Others I can consider and give a good chance, depending on the opposition candidate are as follows: Mr Abdullah Bin Tarmugi, Dr Amy Khor Lean Suan , Assoc Prof Koo Tsai Kee, Ms Penny Low, Ms Irene Ng Phek Hoong. I would consider more if I actually get to hear the other PAP MPs coming forward and really doing ther duty.
I have not seen your arguments other than attacks to that Mr. no sense.
No matter, my vote is not secret is given out for the sake of Singapore. If the PAP changes, everyone would like to vote for them. People are sensible enough to know, bickering for the sake of bickering is bad for Singapore. Bottom line is PAP has not delivered for 20 years.
 

Fool_Me_Hard

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I agree that servicing a 30 year loan is a pretty high risk to take especially in this current economic climate which we can get retrenched anytime and then those foreign talents take our PMET jobs away. Without a job, a typical couple will probably run out of savings to service a loan within a year. USA economic crisis started when there are many families defaulting on their mortgages, they took risky loans which takes more than 20 years and too big an amount which they are ill afford as soon as they are out of work. Taking a shorter loan like 20 years instead of the present 30 years will cause a fall in our property prices but this is also better for the young couples as they can work for enough years to accumulate enough money in their CPF to retire and it is also less risky.
 

sense

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Bottom line is PAP has not delivered for 20 years.

If your claim that PAP has not delivered is true, and that oppositions have also not delivered (due to lack of opportunities, perhaps). Your proposed game plan to pass the governance of Singapore lock, stock and barrel over to the oppositions hoping that they will perform is good for the future of Singapore?
 
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Getloud

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Worth a try. PAP admit that they will work harder when there's opposition.
Instead of letting them walkover, collect salary and go to sleep.
 

Bigfuck

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Bottom line is PAP has not delivered for 20 years./QUOTE]

If your claim that PAP has not delivered is true, and that oppositions have also not delivered (due to lack of opportunities, perhaps). Your proposed game plan to pass the governance of Singapore lock, stock and barrel over to the oppositions hoping that they will perform is good for the future of Singapore?

Standard, PAP mindless statement. People say give PAP a really big black eye, 2 is best. In the event that the opposition wins, it will still be a coalition government and PAP has no choice but to work with somebody and defend their policies for the first time. With their cronies entrenched everywhere, it is the first time they have to work with somebody else. To do nothing at all, shows they care only for themselves and nobody else. You think we do not know your 5 cent claims? You think the opposition is impotent as you, no sense?
 

ChaoPappyPoodle

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@Sense - have you ever watched a football match? When a team's main striker cannot score, a substitute is called in to try to score.

The PAP have had their chance and on many integral aspects of everyday living, they have failed to deliver for the team, Singaporeans.

On a related issue, there is nothing sacred about keeping on an 88 year old man who can't even walk nor speak properly. It's a travesty to the voters in Tanjong Pagar GRC and an affront and a mockery to Singapore's political arena. LKY and the PAP has made our elections and our democratic principles into a laughing stage for the entire world.
 

D Lim

New Member
I was the author of the above and I can say for certain that I am not a closet opposition shadow writer.

The reality is, PAP has every advantage possible in this elections (A sterling track record, credible team, a supportive populace etc), that if they just stuck to the addressing the issues, and give serious consideration to the real issues, they would be the default choice of most people.

However, and this is incredibly frustrating to me, they just cannot help themselves from indulging in gutter politics (trying too hard to make an issue of CSM's motivation when most voters don't really care, Vivian Balakrishnan trying to land a very low blow with the gay agenda nonsense etc), pork barrel politics like upgrading for votes (which violates the sense of fair play for thinking voters) and diversionary tactics (like our dear MBT above).

So, on one hand, there is a call for the opposition to focus on the issues and on the other hand, you have the ruling party engaging in all sort of diversionary ploys which seek to sidetrack voters from the issues which the opposition brings up. This smacks slightly of hypocrisy and makes it hard for default PAP voters with a sense of fair-play to automatically vote you in.

All this is, to me, a needless own goal. Just focus on the issues please PAP, and enough of all the extra-curricular gerry-mandering, and we'll be ok.
 
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