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is your pay 3 million dollar ? Then you higher than our dear leader !

madmansg

Alfrescian
Loyal
I know you are not motivated by money, so what concrete stuff have you done for the people then?
By the way, don't quote those people. Quote what you yourself have done.
=============

that is a fallacious argument. You cannot generalise from one person to an entire nation. On the other hand , if people like michael bloomberg and even in the local context , Tan Kar Kee, will to do serve the nation for free , then we can safely say that the salary is too high. This is in the context of Sg high pay but low performance kind of leadership = kill sg with NS kind of visionless leadership.
 

silverfox@

Alfrescian
Loyal
it depends on what kind of standard is your "well".

i remember there was an article on local paper on the topic of the law enforcer of our neighbour. The article was trying to say that because of low salary, corruption is almost a practice in all levels, because their salary is not enough to feed the family. They are trying to show that high salary does help to prevent corruption.

But the point is how high should it be? these people corrupt because their salary are so low that they cannot even feed their family. But here we are talking about salary too low that they only buy a mercedes every month? if we dont increase it to 2 mercedes, they will have no choice to corrupt to get it?

If $33k a month is not enough to live in comfort ( i havent include bonus, welfare, benefits) and need to corrupt, then the problem doesnt lie with the amount, it lies with the person.

If drawing $33k a month is so low until it will create worries for him, then i really have no idea what kind of leaders we have.

Your 1st sentence is asking me how 'well' is my 'well'
Your 2nd last paragraph is saying $33K a month is enough to live in comfort.
The crux is your comfort level may not be the comfort level for many others.
You cannot compare how a low income, middle income, high income person on their comfort levels. Because to a low income person, having 3 meals a day could be enough for him, but to a middle income, just having 3 meals a day may not be enough. They would probably want a car plus a holiday vacation overseas for the family once a year.

Drawing $33K to manage a country, vs drawing $33K in a private sector, which one has less responsibilities and less accountability?

If someone wants to headhunt you to be in his company, he has to offer you big bucks. If he gives you peanuts, you want to take up?

As for the article on high salary helping to prevent corruption, I can only say if you are lowly paid, you will tend to walk on the by-lines looking for opportunities to milk for your own pockets or even ways to get more money. In short, corruption.

You cannot compare someone driving a mercedes and should be contented with it while others are slogging hard and may not even have enough to drive a japanese make.

In life, it is not fair. Accept it. Some are born rich, some are born poor. Some work hard don't get rich, some don't work hard still get rich. Some people kenna toto, but you buy every week, never even tio $20, so tell me what is fair.

I have a few friends who live the lifestyle of the rich, when you ask them $30K is what, to them they are drawing big bucks, they make big money, they tell me $30K is just enough for their monthly utility bills plus pool maintenance. They can afford to change 2 cars every year, buy 3-4 landed properties yearly, and you try telling them to serve the country for $33K. They are able people who can make big bucks for their companies and shareholders. But try telling them to serve the country in a way, they say they can't take the pressure of common people who will breathe down their necks even if they start to draw $1 more in salary.:o
 

silverfox@

Alfrescian
Loyal
I know you are not motivated by money, so what concrete stuff have you done for the people then?
By the way, don't quote those people. Quote what you yourself have done.
=============

that is a fallacious argument. You cannot generalise from one person to an entire nation. On the other hand , if people like michael bloomberg and even in the local context , Tan Kar Kee, will to do serve the nation for free , then we can safely say that the salary is too high. This is in the context of Sg high pay but low performance kind of leadership = kill sg with NS kind of visionless leadership.

Don't divert attention to Tan Kar Kee or Michael Bloomberg. What action have you made for the people??

Am I safe to say you have done nothing? Or if you feel you have done something for the people, just tell us. Don't always quote what they have done. It's not your credit.:wink:
 

silverfox@

Alfrescian
Loyal
3 million per year ----wow! Can he sleep well every night?

That's his problem. If it's me, I can't sleep.
3 million a year, with the country under me, 1 wrong move and the country hates me to the core. You think you can sleep with such a heavy burden on your shoulders?
 

johnny333

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
i will worry that they will start checking whether did i forget to pay my TV license, did i jay walk, or ask my neighbour auntie did i walk around my house topless.

i.

Hah, I bet LKY hasn't paid his radio/TV license in a long time. :rolleyes:

Damn hippocritical to tell Sporeans theres no free lunch in life.
He's paid so much & yet changes the rules to avoid paying his fair share.
He abuses his position to excuse himself from paying taxes, medical bills, death taxes,....

We never hear of any charity associated with the Lees. Understandable why Spore is such a heartless place :rolleyes:
 

madmansg

Alfrescian
Loyal
Don't divert attention to Tan Kar Kee or Michael Bloomberg. What action have you made for the people??

Am I safe to say you have done nothing? Or if you feel you have done something for the people, just tell us. Don't always quote what they have done. It's not your credit.
===========

the question is overly high pay of govt ? what has that got to do with me ? Even if I say I am willing to be minster for free then so what ? Who am I and it is just words. so to match theory against reality , we can take known capable men , men of practical success and see if they have work for free in the domain of govt. Which is why tan kar kee is a prime example. Another example would be Hu chin tow. and aother examole woudl be deng Xio peng.
 

SIFU

Alfrescian
Loyal
Your 1st sentence is asking me how 'well' is my 'well'


Drawing $33K to manage a country, vs drawing $33K in a private sector, which one has less responsibilities and less accountability?

.:o

is that a trick question??:confused:

let me guess, answer is 'manage a country'???:biggrin:
 

silverfox@

Alfrescian
Loyal
is that a trick question??:confused:

let me guess, answer is 'manage a country'???:biggrin:

It's not a trick question.
Running a country is not just about the passion and love for the country anymore.
Accountability is very important and to the people it is important. 1 wrong move, papers whack you as if you are worst than Edison Chen.
Bread and butter issue comparing the govt vs the private sector is a reality consideration for those who decide to step into politics.

Harsh but its reality:o
 

R4g3

Alfrescian
Loyal
It's not a trick question.
Running a country is not just about the passion and love for the country anymore.
Accountability is very important and to the people it is important. 1 wrong move, papers whack you as if you are worst than Edison Chen.
Bread and butter issue comparing the govt vs the private sector is a reality consideration for those who decide to step into politics.

Harsh but its reality:o

So after paying at least 6 times more than any other political leaders, do we have accountability here? I am talking about accountability to the people, not just to 1 man.

And how about transparency? how about all the news blackout? or are you telling me there is actually no news blackout in this land?

What is the current situation of our stakes in the 4 banks? What is the % we have left in Citigroup after US govt is going to inject funds for a stake?

Do we see any report on ABC learning and our $400m?

what kind of accountability you are talking about?
 

R4g3

Alfrescian
Loyal
That's his problem. If it's me, I can't sleep.
3 million a year, with the country under me, 1 wrong move and the country hates me to the core. You think you can sleep with such a heavy burden on your shoulders?

It depends on what kind of person we have attracted by high salary in the 1st place. To some of them, I believe to them it is just a job and not so much about the people.

If you ask me, I can tell you straight. I believe majority of them can sleep well even there is another big bundle like the escape of MKS, failure investment of the 4 banks, $400M ABC learning turning into trash.

Just look at how they responded for the lost of TC funds you will know.
 

pweesng

Alfrescian
Loyal
i think we can discuss this till death and will not have a amicable solution to the question.

1) to those who earns $4k a month. $16.5k or $33k a month will be a lot of money. they will say, YES! i'll do the smae job for less.

2) to those who earns say $$300k a month. a mere $3 million pa job is probably not as big a deal as others. they will probably not have taken it up.

But the second layer of question one need to ask is, why is one earning $4k while the other is earning $300k? something has got to give here. Given a country to run, who do you think will do a better job, judging from past experience and exposure.

while we want a cheap govt, we need to be consistently aware that the govt at the helm and what he do, will then subsequently determine if their salary is cheap or expensive. At $400k a year for George Bush, i would have to say that he is possibly underpaid. But given if the PM of thailand is being paid the same, he will be way over paid.

What i am saying here is, we cannot just look at the figures, we need to look... in relations to the whole picture.

I also need to stress, i am not for or against anyone running the country. And i am a firm believer that one should be paid according to his contribution and worth. What i would hope to see is that the benchmark is not just based on GDP growth, a whol lot of complex equation makes out a country. All these needs to be taken into consideration.

For example, if the GDP of a country grows by 10%, but you have the failure rate of the GCE A Level increase by say 50%. Does the minister of education deserve a 10% salary increment?

Similarly, if the GDP is down by 10%, but during which we have a 100% passing rate for the GCE A Level, where it traditionally threads around 80%, i think in this case, the minister of education still deserves a raise...
 

tigerboy18

Alfrescian
Loyal
There is really no end to tis debate.

Singapore is a tiny island. As such, to me it is really easy to manage. USA n People's Republic of China are very very big country n it is really very vey difficult to manage. Of course, in our country we always hear arguments tat bcos our country is small, it is vulnerable. Therefore we need very good men to run our country otherwise we may lose wat we hv build up over d years. Just like the case of contempt of Court against Wall Street Journal Asia. The Judge has rejected SC Philip Jeyaretnam's arguments n in his ruling he also said tat Singapore's small size made it necessary to deal firmly with attacks on courts' integrity.

Let's put it tis way - small, we say we r vulnerable, so we must pay $3m+++ to hire d best man to b d PM to run d country. Can u imagine if Singapore is a very big country like d USA? I m sure our leaders wl say, "OH, we r a very very big country n it is very difficult/complicated to manage, so we deserve to be paid highly"! So, my point is, whatever d situation or d size of Singapore, Head d PAP win, Tail d PAP also win!

We can't run away from d fact tat d President of USA is paid only US$400K a year to run such a big country, whereas our PM is paid S$3m+++ a year to run a tiny island. Even after d PM takes a cut of 19% he still receive a handsome (tax-free) sum of $3.04m a year!

Personally, i think d whole salary scheme for our Ministers is ridiculous. Of course, tis is only my humble opinion.
 
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R4g3

Alfrescian
Loyal
Your 1st sentence is asking me how 'well' is my 'well'
Your 2nd last paragraph is saying $33K a month is enough to live in comfort.
The crux is your comfort level may not be the comfort level for many others.
You cannot compare how a low income, middle income, high income person on their comfort levels. Because to a low income person, having 3 meals a day could be enough for him, but to a middle income, just having 3 meals a day may not be enough. They would probably want a car plus a holiday vacation overseas for the family once a year.

Drawing $33K to manage a country, vs drawing $33K in a private sector, which one has less responsibilities and less accountability?

If someone wants to headhunt you to be in his company, he has to offer you big bucks. If he gives you peanuts, you want to take up?

As for the article on high salary helping to prevent corruption, I can only say if you are lowly paid, you will tend to walk on the by-lines looking for opportunities to milk for your own pockets or even ways to get more money. In short, corruption.

You cannot compare someone driving a mercedes and should be contented with it while others are slogging hard and may not even have enough to drive a japanese make.

In life, it is not fair. Accept it. Some are born rich, some are born poor. Some work hard don't get rich, some don't work hard still get rich. Some people kenna toto, but you buy every week, never even tio $20, so tell me what is fair.

I have a few friends who live the lifestyle of the rich, when you ask them $30K is what, to them they are drawing big bucks, they make big money, they tell me $30K is just enough for their monthly utility bills plus pool maintenance. They can afford to change 2 cars every year, buy 3-4 landed properties yearly, and you try telling them to serve the country for $33K. They are able people who can make big bucks for their companies and shareholders. But try telling them to serve the country in a way, they say they can't take the pressure of common people who will breathe down their necks even if they start to draw $1 more in salary.:o

I believe your level of "well" is actually the level of "luxurious" to most people.

you mean even at 33k a month is too little for you to sleep well because of pressure from common people? And you will only sleep well if you are paid $250k a month?
Then I guess you are the type that I consider not suitable for public service. Like what JinGanKor has wrote, "To me, a good politician should have the heart of giving, a heart to serve and compassion for the people. It has nothing to do with how high or how low is the salary." At least he admits he doesn't have the qualities, not the abilities.

I also know people who are filthy rich but yet they never waste or spend unnecessarily. They even mend their shoes until it is really not presentable anymore. They told me it is not a matter of how much i can afford, it is a matter of wastage, if he throw this pair of shoe away, this pair of shoes would have lost its value totally.
Being rich is not about how much you have or how much you can spend. It is how much you can give.
 
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silverfox@

Alfrescian
Loyal
i think we can discuss this till death and will not have a amicable solution to the question.

1) to those who earns $4k a month. $16.5k or $33k a month will be a lot of money. they will say, YES! i'll do the smae job for less.

2) to those who earns say $$300k a month. a mere $3 million pa job is probably not as big a deal as others. they will probably not have taken it up.

But the second layer of question one need to ask is, why is one earning $4k while the other is earning $300k? something has got to give here. Given a country to run, who do you think will do a better job, judging from past experience and exposure.

while we want a cheap govt, we need to be consistently aware that the govt at the helm and what he do, will then subsequently determine if their salary is cheap or expensive. At $400k a year for George Bush, i would have to say that he is possibly underpaid. But given if the PM of thailand is being paid the same, he will be way over paid.

What i am saying here is, we cannot just look at the figures, we need to look... in relations to the whole picture.

Yes, I do agree, different people have different benchmarks on salary scale.
For people who has been earning $1.5K a month, you tell them $8K, they already tell you its a lot.
For people who has been earning $8K, you tell them $10K, they will probably think its not much more and job responsibility may be much higher. You give them a higher scale at $30K, they say WOW.

33K, many people will say they want to take up the job. But seriously, you think they are qualified. Qualified people will not want to take it up, as they can earn much more in private sector. We can say till the cows go home that sacrifice for country, so lets not put money into equation.
I have to say, 1 person sacrifice for country, what about the rest who only knows how to make comments on internet. Maybe the only sacrifice they make is the time they sacrifice on internet.

I have nothing against who becomes government. Even if opposition candidates forms the government and we have a new Prime Minister who is an opposition candidate, I still think he deserves a salary in the range of millions or even pegged closely to private sector.
 

JinGanKor

Alfrescian
Loyal
Your 1st sentence is asking me how 'well' is my 'well'
Your 2nd last paragraph is saying $33K a month is enough to live in comfort.
The crux is your comfort level may not be the comfort level for many others.
You cannot compare how a low income, middle income, high income person on their comfort levels. Because to a low income person, having 3 meals a day could be enough for him, but to a middle income, just having 3 meals a day may not be enough. They would probably want a car plus a holiday vacation overseas for the family once a year.

Drawing $33K to manage a country, vs drawing $33K in a private sector, which one has less responsibilities and less accountability?

If someone wants to headhunt you to be in his company, he has to offer you big bucks. If he gives you peanuts, you want to take up?

As for the article on high salary helping to prevent corruption, I can only say if you are lowly paid, you will tend to walk on the by-lines looking for opportunities to milk for your own pockets or even ways to get more money. In short, corruption.

You cannot compare someone driving a mercedes and should be contented with it while others are slogging hard and may not even have enough to drive a japanese make.

In life, it is not fair. Accept it. Some are born rich, some are born poor. Some work hard don't get rich, some don't work hard still get rich. Some people kenna toto, but you buy every week, never even tio $20, so tell me what is fair.

I have a few friends who live the lifestyle of the rich, when you ask them $30K is what, to them they are drawing big bucks, they make big money, they tell me $30K is just enough for their monthly utility bills plus pool maintenance. They can afford to change 2 cars every year, buy 3-4 landed properties yearly, and you try telling them to serve the country for $33K. They are able people who can make big bucks for their companies and shareholders. But try telling them to serve the country in a way, they say they can't take the pressure of common people who will breathe down their necks even if they start to draw $1 more in salary.:o

I do admit different people have different definition of "well". If other political leaders consider $20-40k is "well" while only our leaders consider $150-250k is "well", then I have to say we are truely unique.

"Drawing $33K to manage a country, vs drawing $33K in a private sector, which one has less responsibilities and less accountability? "
It depends on the person. If he has the passion and responsibility for public service, then manange a country has more responsibilities and accountability. But if he doesnt have the qualities for public service and money is the prime motive, then manage a country(especially here) has less responsibilities and less accountability.

Do we see anyone answer for Shincorp fiasco? The fail investment in banks? ABC learning? Anyone with sense of responsibility and guilt would have stand up, apologies and quit.

"If someone wants to headhunt you to be in his company, he has to offer you big bucks. If he gives you peanuts, you want to take up?"
Still the same answer, depending on the person. If the person is only interested in how much is his pay, how much bonus is he getting and what kind of welfare for PUBLIC SERVICE, I don't think he has the qualities.

If I tell the person, "hey I got a job for you, but what i can offer you is probably less then 1/4 of what you are earning as you are already drawing 6 digits. Other then $$$, the other part of the deal is you are able to serve the country, serve the people and help to build this nation and a sense of satisfaction (not everyone measure satisfaction with money), will you take the job?" If he takes the deal, he has the qualities.

"As for the article on high salary helping to prevent corruption, I can only say if you are lowly paid, you will tend to walk on the by-lines looking for opportunities to milk for your own pockets or even ways to get more money. In short, corruption. "

Different view of what is high and what is low.
So you consider 33k a month is lowly paid and will lead to corruption?
Are you implying gordon brown, Sarkozy, Angela Merkel are looking for opportunities to milk for their own pockets? If they dont, then why do ours will? Different qualities? Attracted wrong people from start?

"You cannot compare someone driving a mercedes and should be contented with it while others are slogging hard and may not even have enough to drive a japanese make."
Public service shouldn't be luxurious in the 1st place. If base on what you said, our leaders can increase as much as they want even they say they are only contented with their own private jets? Where is the gauge? who should be setting the standard? Why is our standard so high from the rest of the world while the one directly benefitting it are the one setting it?

"In life, it is not fair. Accept it. Some are born rich, some are born poor. Some work hard don't get rich, some don't work hard still get rich. Some people kenna toto, but you buy every week, never even tio $20, so tell me what is fair."

You sound like wooden lol. Life is never fair, but does that mean we have to submit to everything that is unfair? There are certain things that cannot be done, but there are things that can be change.
If have to accept everything that is unfair, then how about 1 day you are robbed, 3 month of salary. It is unfair that you worked 3 months for it while the robber just snatch it away from you. You would not make a police report since you should be accept unfairness, right? You wouldnt even want the slightest chance to recover what you have lost from this unfairness right? You wouldnt even want to nab this robber so that to prevent the next unfair robbery right? Is that what you mean by accepting it?
 

JinGanKor

Alfrescian
Loyal
while we want a cheap govt, we need to be consistently aware that the govt at the helm and what he do, will then subsequently determine if their salary is cheap or expensive.

We do not want a cheap government, you dont have to go to the extreme by using the word cheap. No one is saying that we should only pay our leaders $50k a year. We are talking about same pay as leaders in USA, UK, Germany, France, Italy, Spain, Australia, HK, Japan and these are already the top in the world. I dont even want to compare them with the next 30-50 top leaders which you will be shocked by how much they are taking. If you consider ours is reasonable, are you saying that leaders of the rest of world are underpaid, cheap government? And not by a small % but at least 6-100 times?

And with the multiple times of salary for your "1st class leaders", The escape of MSK is coming to his 1st annivesary, the losses of the 4 banks has hit $186,000,000.00 and it is still increasing. Fail investment of ABC learning of $400m and there is not a single report on it. TC lost funds but only reveal exact figures after pressure, and refuse to admit any mistake on their part. There are alot more failure and news blackout like shincorp fiasco, singtel write off, micropolis...i believe alot of the veteran here knows best of what has happen.

Even with multiple times of the salary, you might not be able to get the right person, because public service should not be attracted by money alone in the 1st place.
 

R4g3

Alfrescian
Loyal
If I tell the person, "hey I got a job for you, but what i can offer you is probably less then 1/4 of what you are earning as you are already drawing 6 digits. Other then $$$, the other part of the deal is you are able to serve the country, serve the people and help to build this nation and a sense of satisfaction (not everyone measure satisfaction with money), will you take the job?" If he takes the deal, he has the qualities.

This kind of people you are talking about might not exist in our country.
Our education system only mold our people to become elites with money as target.
Those with talent but do not treat money as main consideration are rare species.
 

silverfox@

Alfrescian
Loyal
This kind of people you are talking about might not exist in our country.
Our education system only mold our people to become elites with money as target.
Those with talent but do not treat money as main consideration are rare species.

The problem is people who are QUALIFIED are not willing because of high expectations of the population and majority expecting them to take up the mantle and yet not be paid near their peers.

While the people who are WILLING are not qualified. They have the gusto, the fearless attitude, the drive to serve the country, but they fall short of the required quality to steer the ship.

:o
 
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