• IP addresses are NOT logged in this forum so there's no point asking. Please note that this forum is full of homophobes, racists, lunatics, schizophrenics & absolute nut jobs with a smattering of geniuses, Chinese chauvinists, Moderate Muslims and last but not least a couple of "know-it-alls" constantly sprouting their dubious wisdom. If you believe that content generated by unsavory characters might cause you offense PLEASE LEAVE NOW! Sammyboy Admin and Staff are not responsible for your hurt feelings should you choose to read any of the content here.

    The OTHER forum is HERE so please stop asking.

Human Rights - Minimum Wage & Modern Slavery

Goh Meng Seng

Alfrescian (InfP) [Comp]
Generous Asset
I spoke about minimum wage on 13 Dec 2008 at Hong Lim Park, in conjunction with U60 group which is there to speak about Labour Rights.

<span style="font-weight:bold;">Against Exploitation and modern Slavery</span>

This topic about Labour Rights and minimum wage is not a very "HOT Topic" politically and any politicians can figure out that in a society which is dominated by a huge middle class citizens, there is really little "political points" to be gained, but potentially lots to lose in talking about it. But I believe in speaking up of what I believe as a social-political activist.

However, I feel that for a self-proclaimed 1st world country, we will have to re-examine ourselves in the policies that we set for our country. Singapore is a Republic, not some ancient feudal state where <span style="font-weight:bold;">SLAVERY</span> is the norm. As a modern society, we need to uphold a certain basic values of human decency.

<blockquote>The failure of Free Market Principles</blockquote>

The basis of our society should be built upon certain principles against EXPLOITATION and even modern slavery. All economist of free market believes that in a FREE MARKET, pricing would be determined efficiently by the market itself. Thus, they believe that minimum wage should be avoided. They also believe in fiscal distortions imposed by taxes and levies are also bad.

But the basic principles of a Free market is based on some fundamental assumptions that there are free and efficient flow of market information, labour mobility and such. It basically implies that both the employers and employees have equal standing, negotiation power and freedom of choices. This would apply to most of the middle class workers who have the power of modern information technology and mobility not only within the country's industries, but also global markets.

But for those of "Vulnerable group", such as manual labourers, cleaners and low wage earners, they lack such equal standing against employers. They lack bargaining power basically because they lack labour mobility, in both depth and scope. Thus, Free market principles could not be applied to such group of workers and the industries that they are in.

Most of the time, these people are being exploited, almost as modern slaves. Be it local or foreign workers, they are always the ones being exploited by employers.

<span style="font-weight:bold;">The absurd wage comparisons</span>

The most common reason I gather on why local fellow citizen cleaners are paid so lowly is that their employers will claim that they could employ foreign workers at "lower wages". For example, they would cite foreign maids' wage as an example, they were only paid $400 or less, thus paying cleaners $400 is "comparable".

However they did not mention that the total cost of employing a foreign maid includes Government levy ($190), lodging and meals. It could easily add up to $700 or $800 per month. Thus, taking the $400 maid's salary as a gauge to a cleaner's take home pay is totally unfair, because the cleaners have to pay for his or her own food, transport and lodging!

<span style="font-weight:bold;">Maids/Workers' levy and Government Exploitation</span>

At this juncture, I would like to talk about government levies imposed on foreign maids and workers. It is totally unacceptable to me that such high levies are applied to these foreign maids and workers.

Take maid levy for example. $190 maid levy on a maid who only earns $400! That is almost half of what the maid earns! That is ridiculous and obscene. Basically, it means Exorbitant EXPLOITATION by our very own government on other people's labour! How could a FIRST WORLD government allowed to exploit other people's labour?

Someone who favor government maid levy argued that these foreign workers should be "taxed". However, I would like to ask, even million dollar ministers are not taxed more than 22%! How could the government tax a maid that earn a miserable wage 30% of the total potential wage ($400 + $190)? Besides, maids are basically taxed through GST, 7% when they consume in Singapore.

Some argue that such levies are to ""protect local workers". But the truth is, it protects nobody as cleaners are still being exploited by their employers and their employers are not paying $590 but only $400 or slightly more than that to their cleaners.

Such high maid levy is basically a "Modern Slavery TAX", an exploitation by the government on other people's labour.

<span style="font-weight:bold;">
Implications of Government levies on Maid Employers</span>

Most of the middle class maid employers would think that this issue about maid levy is none of their business. But the truth is, they are being reaped off. Let me explain using Hong Kong as an example.

In Hong Kong, there is a minimum wage policy for maids. It amounts to about S$670. They used to have maid levy about S$80 but it has been waived lately. (Contrary to Singapore, the levies collected were put into a fund to help local workers in job training.) But with such a wage, the Hong Kongers are employing more experienced and higher quality maids. Most of the time, the basic requirement is at least 3 years of working experience in Singapore.

But in Singapore, what we get are new, inexperienced and young recruits from the countries of original. And most of the time, they used Singapore as a stepping board or training ground to gain enough experience to get themselves employed in other places like Hong Kong, Taiwan or even Middle East. This is basically why Singapore maid employers always have so much problems with their maids and frequent changing of maids.

<span style="font-weight:bold;">Waive the Maid/Worker Levy and set minimum wage</span>

Some people who oppose minimum would use the common propaganda reasoning that minimum wage would increase business cost and cost of living.

First of all, not many MAIN businesses are affected by minimum wages. Most probably only construction sector and the cleaning industry would be affected. But the impace may not be big as the cost of employing foreign workers could be maintained as the same when the workers levy is being cut or waived after the minimum wage is set. Those who exploit local workers from the vulnerable group would have to up their wage accordingly and this is for the cause of prevention of labour exploitation or basically modern slavery. They should not exploit another human being of their fair wage in the very first place.

Some argue that if minimum wage is set for maids, for example, then the middle class would have to suffer higher cost of employing a maid. This may not true at all in Singapore context.

My objective is to eradicate modern slavery, not only by the employers but also the government. Cut down the maid/worker levy to the minimum (maybe $20) or even waive it totally. At the same time, set the minimum wage at the total cost of employing a maid, i.e. $590.

This would mean that the total cost of employing maids would be the same for the middle class employers. And it not only prevent the government of modern slavery but it further prevents exploitation from other employers.

Who gain the most? Not only the maids or low wage foreign workers gain, but local citizens who fall in the vulnerable group will gain too. On top of that, the middle class maid employers would gain by using the increased maid's wage without increasing their cost of employment, to employ more experienced maids. They could demand maids that have worked in places like Malaysia or other places for at least 3 years.

Who would be the loser? The government. Well, if the government is unfair in applying such taxes or levies without diverting such money for the benefits of local workers, then it deserved to be cut from such <span style="font-weight:bold;">UNFAIR and IMMORAL</span> revenues.

Goh Meng Seng
 
Last edited:

pfingo

Alfrescian
Loyal
minimum wage also prompts lazyness and complacency

i hear ppl say things like "dun care bout my job end month get pay can liao" - not scary meh? :confused:
 

Goh Meng Seng

Alfrescian (InfP) [Comp]
Generous Asset
minimum wage also prompts lazyness and complacency

i hear ppl say things like "dun care bout my job end month get pay can liao" - not scary meh? :confused:

Laziness can happen to any people of any status... middle class workers also can be lazy. :wink:

If the employees are lazy, just sack them. This have nothing to do with minimum wage.

Goh Meng Seng
 

chinkangkor

Alfrescian
Loyal
minimum wage also prompts lazyness and complacency

i hear ppl say things like "dun care bout my job end month get pay can liao" - not scary meh? :confused:

Minimum wage will encourage more people to seek work. The incentive to work is strengthen and low income folks will be more motivated to look after themselves.

For workers with attitude problems, the employers are free to terminate their services. There is no iron rice bowl in the private sector.
 

zack123

Alfrescian
Loyal
Minimum wage is just another adherent to conducive business environment. Why not let the market decide on how much to pay? It will be up to the company to calculate compensation to retain/appoint good staff.
 

Goh Meng Seng

Alfrescian (InfP) [Comp]
Generous Asset
Minimum wage is just another adherent to conducive business environment. Why not let the market decide on how much to pay? It will be up to the company to calculate compensation to retain/appoint good staff.

Dear Zack123,

I think you have confused minimum wage policy. This only apply to the lowest, vulnerable group of workers, not other kinds of workers.

As explained, for this vulnerable group of workers, free market principles failed and there is no way they could get a fair deal from employers...i.e. they are bound to be exploited.

Goh Meng Seng
 

chupacabra

Alfrescian
Loyal
Minimum wage is just another adherent to conducive business environment. Why not let the market decide on how much to pay? It will be up to the company to calculate compensation to retain/appoint good staff.

Macdonalds still pay $3.50 today. It was that much 20 years ago.
What kind of market rate is that?

So you are saying that the thousands of MAc staff not good enough to be paid fairly?

As long as there is no mimimum wage law, companies uin peesai do not care about TRUE compensation.
 

chinkangkor

Alfrescian
Loyal
Minimum wage is just another adherent to conducive business environment. Why not let the market decide on how much to pay? It will be up to the company to calculate compensation to retain/appoint good staff.

The supply of labour is directly controlled by MOM's labour policy. By indiscriminately increasing our labour supply, wages are depressed, particularly for the low skilled workers.

In short, the wages set by market forces have been distorted by MOM's policy. There is therefore a need for minimum wage.
 

chinkangkor

Alfrescian
Loyal
Macdonalds still pay $3.50 today. It was that much 20 years ago.
What kind of market rate is that?

Many years back, the hourly rate at Mcdonalds was $4.50. The wage has gone down by so much and with inflation going up all these years, the low wage workers are not benefitting from the economic growth all these years.
 

zack123

Alfrescian
Loyal
Simple repetitive jobs should be paid in accordance to the tasks given. Don't need to provide them with raise as any tom,dick or harry can be used to accomplish them.

Minimum wage if implemented for only certain group of people would only lead to the displeasure of other groups who are marginally better than them. Questions would include:
1) Previously the salary difference between the 2 groups is x. Now is is lowered at y. Then shouldn't our pay be increased also to maintain the difference of x?

This is a slippery slope which can only lead to overall displeasure as other groups would also be unsettled. I have personally experienced this issue as a company in an overseas environment. It is very chaotic and i find my salary costs increased by 40%.
 

Goh Meng Seng

Alfrescian (InfP) [Comp]
Generous Asset
Simple repetitive jobs should be paid in accordance to the tasks given. Don't need to provide them with raise as any tom,dick or harry can be used to accomplish them.

Minimum wage if implemented for only certain group of people would only lead to the displeasure of other groups who are marginally better than them. Questions would include:
1) Previously the salary difference between the 2 groups is x. Now is is lowered at y. Then shouldn't our pay be increased also to maintain the difference of x?

This is a slippery slope which can only lead to overall displeasure as other groups would also be unsettled. I have personally experienced this issue as a company in an overseas environment. It is very chaotic and i find my salary costs increased by 40%.

Dear zack123,

I give you one simple question, do you ban all cars just because there will bound to be accidents some where every month?

Minimum wage policy is not meant to be a "save all" policy but rather, a policy of "living wage" and exploitation / slavery prevention.

Goh Meng Seng
 

Goh Meng Seng

Alfrescian (InfP) [Comp]
Generous Asset
BTW, most people get their pay according to their industry, skills level and sustainability, employability by another company...etc. hardly have I heard people base their wage by comparing the differences of their wages from other people.

Is that a wage policy of envy or what?

Goh Meng Seng
 

zack123

Alfrescian
Loyal
Dear zack123,

I give you one simple question, do you ban all cars just because there will bound to be accidents some where every month?

Minimum wage policy is not meant to be a "save all" policy but rather, a policy of "living wage" and exploitation / slavery prevention.

Goh Meng Seng

Compare apple with apple. Another question you can ask me is whether i agree that chewing gum should be banned. But does that relate to what we are talking about?

Anyway in Singapore nobody is held against his will to work. I believe that hard work and humble returns are something which someone should be ashamed of as long it is an honest work done. What can be done is to supplement the income by the authorities (this can refer to current or future leadership; both PAP and opposition) to ensure that he can meet the basic needs, provide shelter, food and education for his family. This can be done via direct or indirect assistance.
 

zack123

Alfrescian
Loyal
BTW, most people get their pay according to their industry, skills level and sustainability, employability by another company...etc. hardly have I heard people base their wage by comparing the differences of their wages from other people.

Is that a wage policy of envy or what?

Goh Meng Seng

You can try to go to under-developed countries to learn about some of the policies which they try to implement and how it affects the overall.

This is not a wage policy based on envy neither is it fictitious.
 

Goh Meng Seng

Alfrescian (InfP) [Comp]
Generous Asset
Compare apple with apple. Another question you can ask me is whether i agree that chewing gum should be banned. But does that relate to what we are talking about?

Anyway in Singapore nobody is held against his will to work. I believe that hard work and humble returns are something which someone should be ashamed of as long it is an honest work done. What can be done is to supplement the income by the authorities (this can refer to current or future leadership; both PAP and opposition) to ensure that he can meet the basic needs, provide shelter, food and education for his family. This can be done via direct or indirect assistance.

Dear Zack123,

You mean you agree to Government subsidizing people who exploit other people's labour? I don't.

In this situation, if Government is to subsidize, then these people would be more happy to lower the wage even lower... well, if the employees already agreed to work for $400 previously, now government giving them money $190, why not lower their pay further by $100?

This cannot work. You cannot change people who exploit others into pure modern slavery. You could only set laws to prevent them from doing so.

Goh Meng Seng
 

Goh Meng Seng

Alfrescian (InfP) [Comp]
Generous Asset
You can try to go to under-developed countries to learn about some of the policies which they try to implement and how it affects the overall.

This is not a wage policy based on envy neither is it fictitious.

Yup, I thought you just say something about comparing apple to apple? :wink:

Most people are unhappy with their pay but they still stick to their jobs if they cannot find another job with better pay. Whether, this is regardless of whether how envy they are about other people's pay. That's my point. That's the fact of life. But to these vulnerable group of people, they lack bargaining power and job mobility. Thus, they are bound to be exploited. This is reality too, not fictitious. Unless you are telling me you are ok with modern slavery, then case close for me here.

Goh Meng Seng
 

zack123

Alfrescian
Loyal
Dear Zack123,

You mean you agree to Government subsidizing people who exploit other people's labour? I don't.

In this situation, if Government is to subsidize, then these people would be more happy to lower the wage even lower... well, if the employees already agreed to work for $400 previously, now government giving them money $190, why not lower their pay further by $100?

This cannot work. You cannot change people who exploit others into pure modern slavery. You could only set laws to prevent them from doing so.

Goh Meng Seng

I am talking about providing them with housing and utility subsidy, food rations, free education for children. Not giving the people money into the pocket. Whoever thinks or even mention that giving the people cash as a policy is myopic and not fit to be a leader.

As i said, if the company wishes to exploit the workers, in the long run they will find themselves in trouble. Good workers are hard to find these days. They may be with you when the labour market is tight but when opportunities are abundant, they will be the first to leave. Treat them fairly and give them competitive salaries and you'll get your just returns.
 

zack123

Alfrescian
Loyal
Yup, I thought you just say something about comparing apple to apple? :wink:

Most people are unhappy with their pay but they still stick to their jobs if they cannot find another job with better pay. Whether, this is regardless of whether how envy they are about other people's pay. That's my point. That's the fact of life. But to these vulnerable group of people, they lack bargaining power and job mobility. Thus, they are bound to be exploited. This is reality too, not fictitious. Unless you are telling me you are ok with modern slavery, then case close for me here.

Goh Meng Seng

Everyone has their own views. Just airing out mine.
Basically I believe your case is closed the first moment you write your thoughts.
 

chupacabra

Alfrescian
Loyal
Simple repetitive jobs should be paid in accordance to the tasks given. Don't need to provide them with raise as any tom,dick or harry can be used to accomplish them.

This is not the case in first world countries, plumbers, cleaners and other back breaking work are paid fairly.

What makes you think repetitive job as a cleaner is simple? Brother even bangla hdb cleaners do not think their work is simple.

A grass cutter in Toronto gets C$25 an hour. There are lots of takers for the job. During summers you could see young cha bor in bikini tops cutting grass outside wallmart. Than another cha bor use a blower to blow.

Better than seeing bangla right?
 

Goh Meng Seng

Alfrescian (InfP) [Comp]
Generous Asset
I am talking about providing them with housing and utility subsidy, food rations, free education for children. Not giving the people money into the pocket. Whoever thinks or even mention that giving the people cash as a policy is myopic and not fit to be a leader.

As i said, if the company wishes to exploit the workers, in the long run they will find themselves in trouble. Good workers are hard to find these days. They may be with you when the labour market is tight but when opportunities are abundant, they will be the first to leave. Treat them fairly and give them competitive salaries and you'll get your just returns.

LOL! Text book answers to social problems?

Subsidies and food rations are no different from cash substitutes. Slave drivers may just say, well, now you have so many subsidies, you can live with lower wage, cut salary! :wink:

Cash subsidies are no different from cash in essence. What did you say just now?

"Whoever thinks or even mention that giving the people cash as a policy is myopic and not fit to be a leader. "? LOL!

I am not asking for handouts. I am asking the very basic fundamentals; FAIR PAY for Honest Labour in the context for a HONEST LIVING in our society. Very simple and yet very difficult for you to understand.

As I have said, FRee Market principles do not apply to this group of vulnerable workers. Bad time good time, their job mobility is very limited. So don't bet your last penny on your last para.

Goh Meng Seng
 
Top