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Financial Crisis and Man in the Street needs know

scroobal

Alfrescian
Loyal
I thought I better have this on a separate thread as I have had friends over who thought it was a normal recession.

This is in a nutshell what took place.

1. Sub-prime market emerges. Banks cannot get involved in the sub-prime space because of regulatory requirement for deposit banks and their traditional risk model that allow them to play only in the A & B prime segments but not the C & D sub-prime segments.
2. Financial companies not banks undertake loan risk for the C & D segments [sub-prime].Not governed by Central Banks
3. Financial companies [Fincos] start servicing the california real estate market. Funds obtain via issuing of commercial notes with a tenure of 270 days and requires roll-over if not securtised.
4. Biggest fincos are Countrywide, WMC who are mortgage originators working with brokers in-house and external who begin to provide loans on stated income known as liar's loan as no income verification takes place.
5. Contracted loans are then securitised by off loading to the Investment Banks which do not have same regulations as deposit taking banks. Ratings agencies step in to grade packages that are bundled with prime and sub-prime loans. Grading is then given to packages, packages are unitised and sold to wealthy investors, financial companies and Banks. Some end with up Tan Kin Lian's favorite people.
6. Everything is hunky dory as the california real estate is on upwards trends since the last bust in the 80s and rest of US follows. Any default is covered by rising house prices over original valuation and defaulting homeowners actually get some money back.
7. Economy is on a roll, slight hiccup with dot.com in the 90s when t-shirt clad nerds realise that not everyone can be Bill. Greenspan starts to move closer to Jesus and Mohammed and knows no wrong
8. Supply of houses begin to outstrip demand in Arnold's patch. Rest of the country shows similar symptoms. Negative equity becomes a looming reality and the rest of world finds out that these are non-recourse loans unlike mortagages in most countries like Singapore and OZ.
9. Securtised loans known as CDOs are thrown back to originators when they default , investment banks still cool until they realise that originators are no longer solvent, nable to handle the throwback. Panic sets in
Bears & Stern slides, CEO of Standard & Poor sacked as a result of complaint by EU. So much for Women leading businessess.
10. Then we find out that insurance were also in the party by issuing credit default swaps which is akin to selling a guarantee to Liberace that he won't die.
11. Loss of confidence in the capiltal markets as bank fear lending to each other as they have no idea how much is the exposure to CDO and related instruments. Commercial Paper disappears since its first appearence in 1952.
12. Liquidity dries up completely. Central Banks around the world begin relentless cash injections. Effort fail.
13. Key is the US and Paulson launches plan with no details. Congress wavers, markets beging to plunge
14. Congress passes bill, signs of backstop emerges, second effort of funding by central banks begins.
15. Commercial Paper Funding Facility by Fed commences on 27th Oct, markets beging a slow and erratic climb


Here are basic features of this crisis
A. Its once in a lifetime event. Its essentially a collapse of the capital model in totality that was built up since 1952.
B. The poison has yet to flow out completely from the system. Note the emergence of Pinnacle notes and expect mor. There are tranches of CDOs that will be classffied as defaults when US housing keeps going down.
C. This is not the time to buy low for equities or properties as the unknown is rather big. Keep cash and preferabbly in SGD as it is small enough to be manipulated by the local government and they will do it to keep their asset value intact.
D. Govts of the world and the press will continue to give positive news and rightlyfully so to prevent total collapse. But do take it with a pinch of salt. The cash injections over the last 3 mthds are taking rather slow to work.
E. Gold is not a safe option. It has a very inverse correlation to USD and so expect swings.
F. Do not get upset with yourself and family members if you purchased any of the instruments that failed. It was not something that was expected.
G. The people that should swing from the gallows are the rating agencies like Standqard and Poor.
H. Just stay put with cash in the bank, delay any investment decisions, watch the US housing foreclosure trends, the unemployements and consumer spending rates.
I. Do not screw yourself over cross rate activity such as parking in foreign currencies or taking a SGD loan for a foreign propeerty and vice versa.
J. Don't acquire collectibles, the value such things are in your head and in the valuation catalogue.
K. Don't visit any financial planner, consultant, private banker except to do taxation and estate planning activity. They were not assigned by god to look after you. They have to make a living and they can only do that if they sell investments. If you think, there is no commission, then Paris Hilton is a virgin
L. Singapore is particularly hit as it is a financial centre and its depends on the world. OZ and Malaysia are 2 there might be hum along.

Once again, its a collapse of a model and this has never happenned before in this manner or scale. Even the great depression was not a collapse of a model.
 

SneeringTree

Alfrescian
Loyal
The problem is someone started scrutinizing the value of the American housing market and the domino effect from this innocuous act rolled over to become an massive earthquake.
 

lifeafter41

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
I thought I better have this on a separate thread as I have had friends over who thought it was a normal recession.

This is in a nutshell what took place.

1. Sub-prime market emerges. Banks cannot get involved in the sub-prime space because of regulatory requirement for deposit banks and their traditional risk model that allow them to play only in the A & B prime segments but not the C & D sub-prime segments.
2. Financial companies not banks undertake loan risk for the C & D segments [sub-prime].Not governed by Central Banks
3. Financial companies [Fincos] start servicing the california real estate market. Funds obtain via issuing of commercial notes with a tenure of 270 days and requires roll-over if not securtised.
4. Biggest fincos are Countrywide, WMC who are mortgage originators working with brokers in-house and external who begin to provide loans on stated income known as liar's loan as no income verification takes place.
5. Contracted loans are then securitised by off loading to the Investment Banks which do not have same regulations as deposit taking banks. Ratings agencies step in to grade packages that are bundled with prime and sub-prime loans. Grading is then given to packages, packages are unitised and sold to wealthy investors, financial companies and Banks. Some end with up Tan Kin Lian's favorite people.
6. Everything is hunky dory as the california real estate is on upwards trends since the last bust in the 80s and rest of US follows. Any default is covered by rising house prices over original valuation and defaulting homeowners actually get some money back.
7. Economy is on a roll, slight hiccup with dot.com in the 90s when t-shirt clad nerds realise that not everyone can be Bill. Greenspan starts to move closer to Jesus and Mohammed and knows no wrong
8. Supply of houses begin to outstrip demand in Arnold's patch. Rest of the country shows similar symptoms. Negative equity becomes a looming reality and the rest of world finds out that these are non-recourse loans unlike mortagages in most countries like Singapore and OZ.
9. Securtised loans known as CDOs are thrown back to originators when they default , investment banks still cool until they realise that originators are no longer solvent, nable to handle the throwback. Panic sets in
Bears & Stern slides, CEO of Standard & Poor sacked as a result of complaint by EU. So much for Women leading businessess.
10. Then we find out that insurance were also in the party by issuing credit default swaps which is akin to selling a guarantee to Liberace that he won't die.
11. Loss of confidence in the capiltal markets as bank fear lending to each other as they have no idea how much is the exposure to CDO and related instruments. Commercial Paper disappears since its first appearence in 1952.
12. Liquidity dries up completely. Central Banks around the world begin relentless cash injections. Effort fail.
13. Key is the US and Paulson launches plan with no details. Congress wavers, markets beging to plunge
14. Congress passes bill, signs of backstop emerges, second effort of funding by central banks begins.
15. Commercial Paper Funding Facility by Fed commences on 27th Oct, markets beging a slow and erratic climb


Here are basic features of this crisis
A. Its once in a lifetime event. Its essentially a collapse of the capital model in totality that was built up since 1952.
B. The poison has yet to flow out completely from the system. Note the emergence of Pinnacle notes and expect mor. There are tranches of CDOs that will be classffied as defaults when US housing keeps going down.
C. This is not the time to buy low for equities or properties as the unknown is rather big. Keep cash and preferabbly in SGD as it is small enough to be manipulated by the local government and they will do it to keep their asset value intact.
D. Govts of the world and the press will continue to give positive news and rightlyfully so to prevent total collapse. But do take it with a pinch of salt. The cash injections over the last 3 mthds are taking rather slow to work.
E. Gold is not a safe option. It has a very inverse correlation to USD and so expect swings.
F. Do not get upset with yourself and family members if you purchased any of the instruments that failed. It was not something that was expected.
G. The people that should swing from the gallows are the rating agencies like Standqard and Poor.
H. Just stay put with cash in the bank, delay any investment decisions, watch the US housing foreclosure trends, the unemployements and consumer spending rates.
I. Do not screw yourself over cross rate activity such as parking in foreign currencies or taking a SGD loan for a foreign propeerty and vice versa.
J. Don't acquire collectibles, the value such things are in your head and in the valuation catalogue.
K. Don't visit any financial planner, consultant, private banker except to do taxation and estate planning activity. They were not assigned by god to look after you. They have to make a living and they can only do that if they sell investments. If you think, there is no commission, then Paris Hilton is a virgin
L. Singapore is particularly hit as it is a financial centre and its depends on the world. OZ and Malaysia are 2 there might be hum along.

Once again, its a collapse of a model and this has never happenned before in this manner or scale. Even the great depression was not a collapse of a model.


Have noted on point H, in the US now, as more consumers holds back on spending, there is less requirement for goods and services, hence corporation starts to layoff its worker. Once jobless, the poor fellow will be unable to pay his mortgage, hence foreclosure and the house prices would continue to drop.

It's becoming a vicious cycle snd would certainly requires tremendous effort of the new adminstration to break it.

I believe the jobless rate is going to get much worse from the current 6.5%.
 

theblackhole

Alfrescian (InfP)
Generous Asset
thank you brother scroobal for this very enlightening piece of knowledge. peasants like me are grateful. i guess it's going to be bad but you've just confirmed it's going to be worse and the worst ever...coming our way pretty soon...the collapse of the whole model....scary man. but thanks.
 

scroobal

Alfrescian
Loyal
The problem is someone started scrutinizing the value of the American housing market and the domino effect from this innocuous act rolled over to become an massive earthquake.
Actually HSBC in the US first spotted the defaults in 2006 when the 2 year honeynoon rates ended and at the same time, property prices began to tank.
Then CDOs began to default.

Its a scary situation when you now buy a house in some parts of the US, they will give you another house free because the inventory of foreclosed property is high.
 

scroobal

Alfrescian
Loyal
Have noted on point H, in the US now, as more consumers holds back on spending, there is less requirement for goods and services, hence corporation starts to layoff its worker. Once jobless, the poor fellow will be unable to pay his mortgage, hence foreclosure and the house prices would continue to drop.

It's becoming a vicious cycle snd would certainly requires tremendous effort of the new adminstration to break it.

I believe the jobless rate is going to get much worse from the current 6.5%.

The general sentiment in Singapore is that unemployment will go pass 1997 asian crisis episode.
 

scroobal

Alfrescian
Loyal
thank you brother scroobal for this very enlightening piece of knowledge. peasants like me are grateful. i guess it's going to be bad but you've just confirmed it's going to be worse and the worst ever...coming our way pretty soon...the collapse of the whole model....scary man. but thanks.
Not a problem. Did this as I had too many friends and relatives asking the wrong questions. It then dawned on me that they thought it was one of those cycles.
 

kuntakinte

Alfrescian
Loyal
Scroobal,

That's a great piece of advice.... or advise ? Mmmm..... should be advice.

Anyway, never mind, keep it up !! I hope every forumer here read your piece.

Oh... incidentally, I may not be badly affected in this round compared to the last. Because I had once bitten, twice shy !!

:wink:


I thought I better have this on a separate thread as I have had friends over who thought it was a normal recession.
 

Ramseth

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
Actually HSBC in the US first spotted the defaults in 2006 when the 2 year honeynoon rates ended and at the same time, property prices began to tank.
Then CDOs began to default.


From a close inside source, I learned that HSBC was involved as trustee for many of these products. However, as a trustee only, not as interested party. A trustee cannot be an interested party, just like a witness cannnot be a beneficiary in a will. HSBC didn't vest itself in the products, it just take custody and ensure safe custody of whatever credit notes and bonds transacted, the value of which is not their problem.

Obviously on highsight as a banking establishment, HSBC made the right call. And as trustee, certain duty of whistleblowing is required.
 
Last edited:

congo9

Alfrescian
Loyal
Not a problem. Did this as I had too many friends and relatives asking the wrong questions. It then dawned on me that they thought it was one of those cycles.
Well , it definitely not a so call CYCLE !

The whole world prosper because American keep buying. But one thing the whole world didnt take notice. The American buy on credit more then any other people on this planet earth.

Now American has been caught on their pants down. Home getting repossed. American will be spending substantially lesser, because they need to fight to keep their roof on their head. Let alone spending on other items.

It more vicious then a cycle !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

makapaaa

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
phpWGPp3S.jpg


Eye-opening analysis indeed! But why din u tell me earlier? Now too late already lah! Give my son the mandate he needs to hike GAssT, yeah? *hee*hee*
 

zhihau

Super Moderator
SuperMod
Asset
I thought I better have this on a separate thread as I have had friends over who thought it was a normal recession.

bro,

why not look at things from the lighter side?

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/hXBcmqwTV9s&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/hXBcmqwTV9s&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/SwRFoxgEcHc&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/SwRFoxgEcHc&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:
 

scroobal

Alfrescian
Loyal
Scroobal,

That's a great piece of advice.... or advise ? Mmmm..... should be advice.

Anyway, never mind, keep it up !! I hope every forumer here read your piece.

Oh... incidentally, I may not be badly affected in this round compared to the last. Because I had once bitten, twice shy !!

:wink:

Not a problem. I expect some kind of govt task force similiar to the 84-85 downturn. Public expenditure is expected to increase in order to keep employment humming but it will be service industry that is primed to be hit.

Good on you for learning from the previous downturn.
 

scroobal

Alfrescian
Loyal
From a close inside source, I learned that HSBC was involved as trustee for many of these products. However, as a trustee only, not as interested party. A trustee cannot be an interested party, just like a witness cannnot be a beneficiary in a will. HSBC didn't vest itself in the products, it just take custody and ensure safe custody of whatever credit notes and bonds transacted, the value of which is not their problem.

Obviously on highsight as a banking establishment, HSBC made the right call. And as trustee, certain duty of whistleblowing is required.

You raise an interesting point. HSBC role in the US was in mortagage loan and they got out of it. When they took the loss provision in their books, they notified the stock exchange and made a press release. The level of toxicity was never known. The other issue is that not only sub-prime defaulted , prime mortgages as well as the market continued to go south.

The trustee role in this case is fee based and similar to that a lawyer. They already collected their initial set of fees but no further when the instrument collapses. It will be really hard to know when their own laons begin to default.

One of the great sins in finance or banking is to make a statement that causes a bank run. No banker will do it. In Singapore, all branch managers even on a beautiful day in the midst of a bull run, will not allow customers to queue out of the bank premises. In some countries it has erroneously triggered bank runs. In Singapore, MAS will kill you if they find out you allowed customers to queue outside the premises.

HSBC is in such good health that it actually announced to purchase a bank in Indonesia 3 weeks ago.
 

banova888

Alfrescian
Loyal
I thought I better have this on a separate thread as I have had friends over who thought it was a normal recession.

This is in a nutshell what took place.

To summarise your speech.

Investments is a gamble. There are winners and there are losers. Investors take out hard cash. The winners take the hard cash and spend. When there is no more cash, the winners still collect bonuses.
 

banova888

Alfrescian
Loyal
I guess this would be a good time for investors to ask! "Where is our money?"

Their answer lies in the number of pawned! Original Rolex Watches.

Imitation ones have been recalled! lol!
 
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