English Football My Foot

[yansen84]

But why would the English league and the English fans want to host and support a team in London that breeds and trains and French and foreign players so that France can beat England? Beats me. But I'm sure it doesn't beat Wenger. Look at his team. French-speaking from France, Ivory Coast preferred. Makes things easier for him, yes? I'm sure he speaks better French than English.

...
I can't understand how Londoners and Englishmen can cheer for Arsenal.

you have expressed just what I had been feeling and intending to say for a while now. I just don't see how fans can go to a stadium and see a complete loss of identity in the team they have supported through the years, yet continue cheering them on. someone posted earlier it is happening throughout the league, but I can't think of more blatant offenders than those you've mentioned - arsenal, chelsea and liverpool. in the case of liverpool and chelsea, credit, albeit grudgingly, must be given to the managers for continuing to build their team around john terry, frank lampard, steven gerrard and jamie carragher - those who were produced in-house or have spent a considerable amount of time at the club. arsenal fans should just boycott their team until a semblance of britishness is restored, their team is a disgrace and the multinationality can't even be justified by trophies.

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

You forget Reds have Gerrad and Carragher who are the heart and soul of Anfield and true red scousers. Btw Rooney is not a true Red Manc. To be fair to Chelsea, Terry and Lampard are also key and the heart and soul of the Bridge. Saying that I agree that the top teams of any league should have afew core local players at the heart which is obvious in La Liga and Serrie A.

i think arsenal, liverpool and chelsea are a disgrace to english football. for clubs that have traditions so deepy rooted for them to be perennially mentioned as the 'Big 4' teams need a lionheart like rooney (used to be keane) in there and sadly that is an element lacking in the other 'Big 3'.

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

The best striker of that era sadly missed out - Jimmy Greaves.

Where did the players of the England team that won the 1966 World Cup come from:

Gordon Banks (Leicester City)
George Cohen (Fulham)
Ray Wilson (Huddersfield Town)
Nobby Stiles (Manchester United)
Jack Charlton (Leeds United)
Bobby Moore (West Ham United)
Alan Ball (Blackpool)
Bobby Charlton (Manchester United)
Geoff Hurst (West Ham United)
Martin Peters (West Ham United)
Roger Hunt (Liverpool)

This is a strange team. There were no distinctive midfield. Goalkeeper Banks aside, Cohen, Wilson, Stiles, J. Charlton and Moore could all be classified as defenders, and Ball, R. Charlton, Hurst, Peters and Hunt could all be classified as forwards. Furthermore, there're no distinctive wingers among the forwards.

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

What about English youngsters like Wolcott and Ramsey?

The problem as I see it with fielding English talent is that they are overpriced in the EPL, for instance look at the asking prices for Wright when he went to Chelsea and say what Villa were asking for Barry. There appears to be a premium for English talent in the EPL.

Arsene Wenger should apply for the manager's job with France or another French-speaking country. I can't understand how Londoners and Englishmen can cheer for Arsenal.

 

[yansen84]

You forget Reds have Gerrad and Carragher who are the heart and soul of Anfield and true red scousers. Btw Rooney is not a true Red Manc. To be fair to Chelsea, Terry and Lampard are also key and the heart and soul of the Bridge. Saying that I agree that the top teams of any league should have afew core local players at the heart which is obvious in La Liga and Serrie A.

I regret that you take my words at face value. I know for a fact that Rooney's not Manc-born and bred as are people like Scholes, but so what? neither was Roy Keane, nor was Frank Lampard brought up through Chelsea's youth system (if they even have one that is). What I am saying is you need a core British heart in the team, and sadly Arsenal don't have that AT ALL.

Walcott and Rasmey? Do they ever get a look in??

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

I don't think I did. Just wanted to point out some facts. In any event I do agree with you that preferably afew local players should always form the core of a local side, ideally coming from the same region as the club itself.

But like I said in another post above, I think because of the way the EPL has been transformed into a $$$ making machine which has invariably led to a huge premium tag being placed on English talent it may not be practical nor feasible for clubs to pay such inflated prices and instead opt for cheaper but just as able or perhaps even better talent on the continent and further afield in say latin america. Unless you have $$$ like United and now City and previously Chelsea.

There is the Youth Academy system of course, which the likes of Platini think is the be all and end all. However let's face reality, big league teams need to be successfull here and now not over the possible long term which is not guarenteed , especially in the EPL. Very few managers are given time to build, Arsene and Alex are the exceptions. It would be nice to have say an Ajax Academy but they are few and far between.

Btw Walcott is currently injured and Ramsey is a long term prospect just like Wilshire and Freeman. Oh and back to facts, Keano would not count in my book because he is not even a native Englishman.

I regret that you take my words at face value. I know for a fact that Rooney's not Manc-born and bred as are people like Scholes, but so what? neither was Roy Keane, nor was Frank Lampard brought up through Chelsea's youth system (if they even have one that is). What I am saying is you need a core British heart in the team, and sadly Arsenal don't have that AT ALL.

Walcott and Rasmey? Do they ever get a look in??

 

[Ramseth]

Let's dis-spell the myth that English players are too expensive. Who are the most expensive players on the international transfer markets? If English players are too expensive, can anyone name a few of them on the top of the price list? If English players are too expensive, how come it's the poorer clubs who have most English players and the richer clubs having the least English players?

The other myth perpetrated is that managers choose players on ability, not nationality. This needs not much dis-spelling as it contradicts itself by purporting to support the first myth. If English players are so bad, how can they be expensive?

There's nothing wrong with an English club manager importing foreign players whom he adjudges to be worth the money and comes with the ability. However, an English club should be an English club at the core. There's nothing wrong with importing some foreign players deemed worth the money and come with the ability to help build around the core. But some clubs and managers overdo it till the core is lost.

 

[Ramseth]

Btw Walcott is currently injured and Ramsey is a long term prospect just like Wilshire and Freeman. Oh and back to facts, Keano would not count in my book because he is not even a native Englishman.

In 2006, Arsene Wenger recommended Theo Walcott to S-G Eriksson for a place in the England World Cup squad. Wenger himself hadn't even given Walcott a first-team place in Arsenal then yet. He gave Walcott a chance? Kidding who? I think he just want Arsenal to be represented in the England squad. His first-team have been all foreigners. Arsenal has many players representing France and other countries in the World Cup. Without Walcott, Arsenal has zero representation in England.

Walcott was the first and only England player to get into the England squad without even kicking a ball in a Premier League game. However, he proved his worth with England, especially with that hat-trick against Croatia in the 4:1 victory. Walcott's breakthrough came with political embarrassment considerations, not cause of club level opportunities first.

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

Talking about quality and some even dubious quality not any old English player.

Let's dis-spell the myth that English players are too expensive. Who are the most expensive players on the international transfer markets? If English players are too expensive, can anyone name a few of them on the top of the price list? If English players are too expensive, how come it's the poorer clubs who have most English players and the richer clubs having the least English players?

.

 

[Ramseth]

Talking about quality and some even dubious quality not any old English player.

Are English average players are also very expensive? I'm talking exactly about average league-standard players, not the Cristiano Ronaldo or the Robinho. Every club, even the top clubs have their share of players that are average league standard. The older ones just play out their supporting roles to retirement. The youngers may be groomed and bloom to higher levels.

Look at Arsenal's bank account, academy and its first-team line-up. Arsenal can't afford average-price British player? Surely not, considering they can afford not-so-inexpensive French and foreigners. French and foreign players are better than British? Sometimes yes and sometimes no. But in the case of Arsenal and Arsene Wenger, always British more expensive and always French or foreign better. How can that be?

Arsenal won the league title 3 times during the 1998-2000+ ascendency of France in World Cup and Euro. It's now languishing 5th in the English league and 3-6 points behind Aston Villa. Arsenal's fortunes rise and fall with France, not with England. Arsenal academy can't produce good local lads? Surely not, they're either unused or sold off early, so as to preserve first team places for French and foreigners.

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

I think we are talking on cross lines here. The way the EPL has evolved I just think things are different considering that at the very minimum the bottom 3 clubs in the EPL stand to lose something like 30-40 million pounds if they get relegated. I think the EU employment laws and Bosman's case may also be contributing factors here. Whether the players are English or not appears to be insignificant in this case. What is interesting would be just to contrast the average number of English players in the Championship Div 1 league clubs viz EPL clubs, Div 2 downwards I'd say would pretty much be English plus British/Irish. And there you have it. So it is all about $$$ in the EPL.

Are English average players are also very expensive? I'm talking exactly about average league-standard players, not the Cristiano Ronaldo or the Robinho. Every club, even the top clubs have their share of players that are average league standard. The older ones just play out their supporting roles to retirement. The youngers may be groomed and bloom to higher levels.

Look at Arsenal's bank account, academy and its first-team line-up. Arsenal can't afford average-price British player? Surely not, considering they can afford not-so-inexpensive French and foreigners. French and foreign players are better than British? Sometimes yes and sometimes no. But in the case of Arsenal and Arsene Wenger, always British more expensive and always French or foreign better. How can that be?

Arsenal won the league title 3 times during the 1998-2000+ ascendency of France in World Cup and Euro. It's now languishing 5th in the English league and 3-6 points behind Aston Villa. Arsenal's fortunes rise and fall with France, not with England. Arsenal academy can't produce good local lads? Surely not, they're either unused or sold off early, so as to preserve first team places for French and foreigners.

 

[yansen84]

But like I said in another post above, I think because of the way the EPL has been transformed into a $$$ making machine which has invariably led to a huge premium tag being placed on English talent it may not be practical nor feasible for clubs to pay such inflated prices and instead opt for cheaper but just as able or perhaps even better talent on the continent and further afield in say latin america. Unless you have $$$ like United and now City and previously Chelsea.

I have a gut feeling this is a generalisation that might not be upheld by statistical evidence. Again looking at the example of Arsenal, they've regularly splurged out on 'foreign talent' at the expense of British ones, just think of the likes of Justin Hoyte, Matthew Upson, Stephen Hughes. Now, think of the 'foreign talent' they've shipped in by the lorryloads - are the likes of Denilson, Almunia, Song, Vela, Eboue even considered talent? What is the difference? Definitely not valuation or skill, it's just plain that Wenger doesn't fancy Brits.

There is the Youth Academy system of course, which the likes of Platini think is the be all and end all. However let's face reality, big league teams need to be successfull here and now not over the possible long term which is not guarenteed , especially in the EPL. Very few managers are given time to build, Arsene and Alex are the exceptions. It would be nice to have say an Ajax Academy but they are few and far between.

Now, you're speaking abit like Alan Hansen. 'You can't win anything with kids' can you? History has proven that is not impossible.

Btw Walcott is currently injured and Ramsey is a long term prospect just like Wilshire and Freeman. Oh and back to facts, Keano would not count in my book because he is not even a native Englishman.

Long term prospect? You don't pay 5mil pounds to buy a LT prospect and leave him on the bench, bringing him on only in the 89th min when the game has long been won. This guys looks like he's headed for an early exit. I honestly think the moves by Wenger to buy him along with Jack Wilshere were motivated by an intention to appease those in the general public who've had enough of his partialness towards foreigners. Btw if you wanna talk about facts, Ramsey's Welsh and not English too. But let's agree shall we that Brit/Irish players are good enough - you don't see many teams even in the lower divisions playing full line-ups of pure Englishmen.

 

[Ramseth]

I just watched the All England Badminton men's final 2009 in which Lin Dan (China) beat Lee Chong Wei (Malaysia), just like a replay of the Olympics 2008 badminton men's final. All England Badminton tournament is the highest rated and most prestigious badminton competition in the world of badminton outside the Olympics, perhaps even higher rated and more prestigious than the Olympics among badminton players and fans.

Funny it's still called All England and held in England, but when it comes to top players, none English, or even British. Another good example that comes to mind is the Wimbledon tennis tournament. Perhaps the Barclays Premier League is going on that route. Note that I say going on, not going down.

However, in years to come, if a country interesting in hosting a sport doesn't produce the top players themselves, what's there to prevent other countries with better players to host it? All England Badminton and Wimbledon Tennis started as premier and sole tournament of the highest rank in their field. Today, the prestige of Wimbledon has been diluted by various countries' "Opens". Badminton isn't so obviously affected as few countries are interested.

FIFA requires all World Cup hosting nations to have teams of qualifying standards, on top of stadia and finance. It's good sporting spirit, and logical spirit. There're no English badminton or tennis players capable of qualifying for any decent round in All England and Wimbledon. Why is England hosting? Perks of empire hangover?

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

I think you are misconceived. All England and Wimbledon are precisely what they are i.e. specific tournaments linked to a specific place with history and prestige built up over the years. It is for the world badminton authority to build up its own prestgious tournament. As for tennis, well the other grandslam tournaments need to compete, same for say the golf grandslam tournaments.

 

[Ramseth]

Perhaps misconceived, just a random comparison that may not be accurate.

 

[yansen84]

perhaps your worries about the BPL going down the same route are overdone. as far as i'm concerned, man utd are still the dominant team by a country mile, and they've got a good english/brit presence in them (also included brits in general as it is equivalent to how andy murray the scot is being touted as the next possible 'home-grown' wimbledon winner). the most ludicrous of the lot - arsenal - are not even within a sniff of the trophy.

 

[Wayne Piew]

OMG, no Arse-Anal players in the latest squad announced.
What a big surprise!
While Loserpool is also another dying breed, left only the DJ bully.


England squad:

Goalkeepers: David James (Portsmouth), Robert Green (West Ham United), Ben Foster (Manchester United)
Defenders: Leighton Baines (Everton), Phil Jagielka (Everton), Joleon Lescott (Everton), Ashley Cole (Chelsea), John Terry (Chelsea), Rio Ferdinand (Manchester United), Glen Johnson (Portsmouth), Matthew Upson (West Ham United), Ledley King (Tottenham Hotspur).
Midfielders: Gareth Barry (Aston Villa), Michael Carrick (Manchester United), Frank Lampard (Chelsea), Stewart Downing (Middlesbrough), David Beckham (AC Milan), Shaun Wright-Phillips (Manchester City), Aaron Lennon (Tottenham Hotspur), Steven Gerrad (Liverpool).
Forwards: Carlton Cole (West Ham United), Peter Crouch (Portsmouth), Emile Heskey (Aston Villa), Wayne Rooney (Manchester United).

 

[brandon66]

OMG, no Arse-Anal players in the latest squad announced.
What a big surprise!
While Loserpool is also another dying breed, left only the DJ bully.


England squad:

Goalkeepers: David James (Portsmouth), Robert Green (West Ham United), Ben Foster (Manchester United)
Defenders: Leighton Baines (Everton), Phil Jagielka (Everton), Joleon Lescott (Everton), Ashley Cole (Chelsea), John Terry (Chelsea), Rio Ferdinand (Manchester United), Glen Johnson (Portsmouth), Matthew Upson (West Ham United), Ledley King (Tottenham Hotspur).
Midfielders: Gareth Barry (Aston Villa), Michael Carrick (Manchester United), Frank Lampard (Chelsea), Stewart Downing (Middlesbrough), David Beckham (AC Milan), Shaun Wright-Phillips (Manchester City), Aaron Lennon (Tottenham Hotspur), Steven Gerrad (Liverpool).
Forwards: Carlton Cole (West Ham United), Peter Crouch (Portsmouth), Emile Heskey (Aston Villa), Wayne Rooney (Manchester United).

So? You very 'proud' is it?

why should you care who goes into the England team? Are you an Englishman?

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

Lagi best if you ask me...hope all United's jokers get injured during the International...but not Stevie G