Dr Syed Alwi wants Malay and Muslim issues to be addressed in TOC

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

2) Dr Syed Alwi on December 30th, 2008 11.46 am Dear TOC,

I would like to see TOC address ethnic issues. What do the Malays want ? What are their primary concerns etc ? At the moment - it seems to me that TOC is voicing the concerns of the majority ethnic group. For Malays - Islam is an important issue. But TOC has very little coverage of interest to the Muslims. This must change. Singapore does not exist in a vacuum. Singapore lies smack in the middle of the Malay Archipelago which is decidedly very Muslim and in fact, increasingly so.

So my request is that TOC must devote more space to ethnic issues and also issues affecting Malaysia and Indonesia.

Regards
Dr Syed Alwi

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

3) Andrew Loh on December 30th, 2008 11.52 am Dear Syed Alwi,

The majority group are Singaporeans. That’s why we focus on that - issues which affect all of us, whether we are Chinese, Malays, Indians, Eurasians, or even PRs.

Andrew Loh

6) Dr Syed Alwi on December 30th, 2008 12.43 pm Dear Andrew Loh,

I beg to differ. What are the views of Chinese Singaporeans towards Islam ? What are the views of the Malay Muslims regarding Islam in Singapore and so on ?

Yes - we are all Singaporeans. BUT WE DO NOT HAVE THE SAME ASPIRATIONS, VALUES, WORLD-VIEW AND CULTURAL PRACTICES.

Any attempt to impose a Singaporean Singapore on Malay Muslims will be met with fierce resistance. Your condescending attitude towards REAL ethnic problems does NOT bode well for the Democratic movement in Singapore.

If this nascent Democratic movement cannot present a platform that is acceptable to Muslims - then I think that it will NOT go far.

Its patently naive and irresponsible to ignore valid and real differences between the various races.

Most Malay Muslims will NOT support issues that are in violation of Islamic norms. Your nascent Democratic movement must find ways to be inclusive enough to accomodate Muslim interests.

Otherwise - are you not just another chauvinistic group that ignores valid Malay Muslim issues ?? How different then are you - from other chauvinistic groups ?

Sincerely
Dr Syed Alwi

 

[The_Latest_H]

2) Dr Syed Alwi on December 30th, 2008 11.46 am Dear TOC,

I would like to see TOC address ethnic issues. What do the Malays want ? What are their primary concerns etc ? At the moment - it seems to me that TOC is voicing the concerns of the majority ethnic group. For Malays - Islam is an important issue. But TOC has very little coverage of interest to the Muslims. This must change. Singapore does not exist in a vacuum. Singapore lies smack in the middle of the Malay Archipelago which is decidedly very Muslim and in fact, increasingly so.

So my request is that TOC must devote more space to ethnic issues and also issues affecting Malaysia and Indonesia.

Regards
Dr Syed Alwi

That shouldn't be a problem, although daily issues, like the economy is pretty much colour blind in the first place.

On a sidenote: its probably right to write a post about race in Singapore, in a general context in the website itself, in the way Obama has made a speech about race in March 2008 when his former pastor's rants went on Youtube and the mainstream press. A warning though: the ruling on race, imposed by the PAP, has narrowed the chances of one not crossing the line and finding themselves into a spot of legal trouble.

That's why Andrew has been trying to focus on issues that are colour blind, and religious-blind. TOC has been able to exist without the PAP publicly slamming it because TOC has not crossed the line yet. Getting into the muck about what S'porean chinese think about Islam can open up a Pandora's Box, especially if some become abusive in racial and religious terms in the comments section. The PAP will definitely pick it up; they aren't stupid.

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

7) AhKao on December 30th, 2008 1.09 pm While these questions are pertinent to Dr Alwi, I feel TOC would be stepping into a very obvious OB marker set by the PAP: racial issues.

If they needed any excuse to shut TOC down, this would give them ample cause. Look at what flimsy reasoning they used to accuse Tan Liang Hong of the same thing.

10) moshedyan on December 30th, 2008 1.41 pm

dear abang
its not that we do not liked to discuss on malay/islam issues
we simply cannot
because
as a truelife singaporean
we can never adapt to the purity thinkin of an islamic person
i know i have many many malays/islamic kakis amon my kopi drinkers
heck we even goes together on overseas holidays
including little china….
onced there was a class 1 gatherin
you would be surprised
just a gathering of ALL
the primary 1 till primary 6
from our ole primary school
we joked
we compared
many of my classmates are doin well
some millionaires
1 pured islamic scholar
who migrated to australia and practised LAW in australia
was OFFENDED
when 1 our of naught primary 1 classmate started on the wrong foot
he called all malays/islam are the same…
that same primary 1 malay/islamic classmate snapped @ him
even thoguh we havn’t met/gathered in DECADES…
not 1
not 2
more than 3 folds….
so back to this topic
how to discuss this issue?
even discussin about mas sala escapes
irked some of our local mosque followers…

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

15) 2cent on December 30th, 2008 3.38 pm If this nascent Democratic movement cannot present a platform that is acceptable to Muslims - then I think that it will NOT go far.
TOC is far from that position. It need to grow some more, the political climate need to open a some more before such platform is meaningful. Dr Syed Alwi, it is not yet the time to handle the issues you are talking about.

You can do something, there is much you can do. How about write some beginner piece and submit to TOC or other blogs or even SDP so we know what is in your mind.

So, what say you?
19) Dr Syed Alwi on December 30th, 2008 5.51 pm Dear People,

You must first understand that the average Malay-Muslim Singaporean has a different “taste-bud” ; they do NOT view things the same way as you do. Yes - we Muslims certainly appreciate some of the issues discussed on TOC - especially where Economics is involved.

But other issues we differ. Things like Euthanasia, Foreign Policy, Response to events in Malaysia & Indonesia and so on - are viewed differently.

That in itself is NOT a problem. BUT when you enter the realm of politics - you will then need Muslim votes and support. Now if your platform excludes Muslim interests - how then are you going to get Muslim votes and support ?

Singapore is NOT fortress America. We are surrounded by Muslim countries in upheaval. Indeed - they are becoming more and more Muslim everyday….For how long can TOC evade the Malay-Muslim issue ????????

Sincerely
Dr Syed Alwi
20) patriot on December 30th, 2008 6.06 pm .

As regard the Issue of Malay/Islam as brought up by Dr Syed Alwi, I would like to bring his attention to some commenters reminding TOC to steer clear of religious matters and to moderate comments carrying religious connotations. These requests were made recently during the Christmas Season when some posters extended their wishes with praises to their belief. Despite being an atheist with no prejudice against any religion, I and many others do wish that TOC WILL REMAIN RELIGIOUS- FREE infinitely. It is sensitive and let us respect each others belief by keeping ones’ own religion in the heart.

As Andrew had rightly and reasonably explained, TOC is for all Singaporeans irrespective of their races. We, the participants, have to accept this fair treatment accorded to us by TOC.

THE INTERNET IS FREE FOR ANYONE TO EXPRESS THEIR PERSONAL AND COMMUNAL AGENDA IN THEIR OWN SITES AND IT IS UP TO ANY INDIVIDUAL TO SET UP THEIR DOMAINS.

patriot

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

21) patriot on December 30th, 2008 6.20 pm To Dr Syed Alwi;

I read Ridzwan. com regularly and posted comments there infrequently.

Ridzwan is a good writer in my opinion, who can deal with religions in a very sensible and sensitive manner. He is able to portray his understandings of Islam in relation to politics, cultures and livings in practical and relevant ways.

Ridzwan.com is a site that I will strongly recommend to any netizen who wish to further understand our Malay/Muslim compatriots.

Yours truly: patriot
22) gumbini borland chee on December 30th, 2008 6.22 pm I second Patriot for his call
to ensure TOC remain religion-free.

It should not just be religion-neutral.

It has to be religion-free. for obvious reasons.
Discussions about religions, if legal, should be done elsewhere, with all due respect to all religions. Again , for obvious reasons too clear to have to explain.

This is a social-political discussion site.

in my honest opinion.

feel free to comment on my comment that i commented.
23) Dr Syed Alwi on December 30th, 2008 6.24 pm Dear Patriot,

If you put it that way - then my reply to you is quite simple - please do NOT hope to get Muslim votes during elections if you are going to ignore Muslim voices.

The point I want to make is that - it seems that this nascent Democratic movement here - is dominated by Non-Muslims. Furthermore this movement does not - yet - have a platform that is inclusive enough to accomodate Muslim voters. Singapore is surrounded by Muslim countries in upheaval and unless this infant Democratic movement in Singapore can accomodate Muslim views and interests - it will NOT go far.

If you want Muslim votes and support during elections - then you must accomodate Muslim views and interests. Period.

Perhaps that is why the PAP introduced the GRC system to begin with !!! While many of you do not like the GRC system - this debate here shows you why the PAP introduced it. You have to look beyond your own immediate interests in order to govern a multi-racial and multi-religious country.

Sincerely
Dr Syed Alwi

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

24) Singaporedaddy on December 30th, 2008 6.24 pm Patriot & Dr Alwi

How can you be so dismissive of Dr Alwi? Why dont you let him share with all of us what he means by “muslim interest.” My feel is, if its so important to him and the community which he points too; then it should be accorded the full measure of diplomatic respect for us to listen to him as he bears the full story out. Pls Dr Alwi disregard that fool, do continue, I really seek to understand what you mean by muslim interest.

I feel however Dr Alwi, I must inform you to be fair; although I am not a muslim; I speak and write fluent arabic and even know the hadith well enough along with the works of the muslim scholars; this I gathered during my stint as the liaison officer in the planet of D’ni / which were populated predominantly by gulf gamers.

Patriot, you are a fool. Let the man speak. Do not be surprised, if you may even learn something new out of it.

Tell be Dr Alwi. Share with me in the spirit of muqharitzah. I seek to understand.

SD (Internet Liaison officer of the brotherhood)
25) tang chiu chian on December 30th, 2008 6.28 pm Believer of Religion A may just fully believe in relgion A and may not agree or believe in the existence of Religion B and vice versa and
i suppose this reason alone is good enough for why
TOC is wise to remain religion-free.

Everyone can have different beliefs.
Every believer may like others to become their believer out of love and care for people. This zeal can cause friction as time goes by.

this is why religion A believe congregates in a temple or church of their believe and not in that of religion B.
26) Dr Syed Alwi on December 30th, 2008 6.29 pm Dear People,

I am going to be a Devil’s Advocate here by asking the following question :

Is TOC marginalising the ethnic-minority voices in our pluralistic society ??

What is your view ? Do you think that any political party in Singapore needs the votes of the ethnic minority ?

Speak your mind !

Regards
Dr Syed Alwi
27) me on December 30th, 2008 6.44 pm Hi, i still strongly feel TOC should keep to OB markers. If there are any reasons for the government to shut TOC down, this would easily be it.

Discussion of religious issues is possible, ONLY if the government is willing to push the OB markers and allow intelligent discussion. The problem is that such discussions easily manifest into intense and personal domains for arguments and defence which is atypical of religious discussions.

From the strong language used in trying to raise the points about discussing islamic issues, I personally sense defensiveness and slight indignation at being slighted. Correct me if I am wrong, my apologies. This is however, understandable. This is also precisely why I feel TOC should not venture into commenting on religious issues given the climate that can easily evolve.

However, that is not to say that we should ignore it altogether. Nobody should ignore anybody, and minority rights should be respected and accepted. It is just that TOC should not give any authority any excuse to shut it down, so before it can engage in such issues, perhaps arguments for the inclusion of such discussions should be directed at the government instead.

Singapore must and should progress as a whole. TOC should, for now, exist as a medium of discussion and alternative media to cover issues that encompasses Singaporeans, not Chinese, Malay or Indians, but Singaporeans.

=) Happy 2008 everyone!

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

28) moshedyan on December 30th, 2008 6.56 pm [i
hello abang
are you sayin/admitting malay/islam candidates are not good enough to stand for their OWN election?
that they need a helpin hands to goes through back door via GRC?
yes or no will do?
what about the indians in malaysia?
do you see them beggin for a GRC teams
in malaysia?
yet some of them are highend class politicans!
so you see
dr syed alwi
please visit kelantan lane clinic
i know its a VD clinic
your brain is infected with VD thinkin
nothin more
don’t
PLEASE
used the malay as voters
this ain’t runnin for mayorships in uncle sam of america
you shamed my drinkin malay/islam kakis
the kakis of mine
earned more than i do
worked in higher position
and brin home the ikan kepala more tasty than i can afford
some of my malay/islam kakis
fully paid their 5 room hdb flat in FULL
yet they even called themselves
nikolodeon and gatsby
i am sad
which is why
i have already mentioned
this religious issue cannot be discuss @ all
because with people liked you
you want a handicap to start with…
29) And the non-muslims on December 30th, 2008 7.07 pm Dear Syed Alwi,

You’re getting tedious. While you’re advocating covering more Muslim-related interests, have you thought about the non-Muslims in Singapore? Why don’t you say that we should also cover the interests of the Christians, Budhists, Taoists, the various other minority religion devotees, and the freethinkers as well. It’s only fair isn’t it?

Just as Muslims do not agree with some of the things taught by other religions, non Muslims would hardly agree with some of Islam’s teachings.

If you want to look at things regionally, then look at it globally too. Islam isn’t the only religion in the world.
30) patriot on December 30th, 2008 7.10 pm Dearest Dr Syed Alwi;

please allow me to enlighten You a little bit.

You have repeatedly made a statement of truth that Singapore in located in the midst of the Malay Archipelago which is domiciled predominantly by Malay Races/Muslims. However, diplomatic interstate relations are hardly issues discuss in(at) TOC which is more concern with our(citizens’) wellbeings in our domestic affairs.

Dr Syed, You leave me an impression that You misreading TOC.
As far as we know, TOC is Race and Colour Blind, your comments were not and never censored despite your championing of Minority Race Agenda, do You see the point?
By alleging that TOC had/has not consider the importance of the Minority Votes, You have actually slighted TOC, any reader and participant of this Site will be able to discern that TOC caters to no personal or communal entity.

You have harped on the importances of the roles the Minority Races play in nation building and I fully concur with You that almost everyone of all Races in Singapore work very very hard for their own survivals and progresses. As such, what is the difference between majority Race and minority races?

And lastly, to be candid and frank with You, You should not assume that TOC will morp into a political party, maybe some members may become politicians, but not neccessarily under TOC Banner. The other assumption, I suspect, You have wrongly assumed that if TOC ‘look after’ the Malay/Muslims Minority, the Latter will all support TOC in election or in ideology. You may like to ask around your community for an idea.

And do read again my posting above which states that the calls to TOC to be religion-free were made DURING CHRISTMAS WHEN AND WHERE GREETINGS WERE MADE WITH MENTIONS OF FAITH.

Yours truly: patriot
31) Jackson Tan on December 30th, 2008 7.13 pm Dr Syed Alwi (#1):

Can you be more specific on what you’re hoping for? Is it that there should be more articles on Malay opinions? Or is that that articles that are written ought to take into account the opinions of Malays?

To the former, I do not think TOC ought to make a special effort in doing. After all, I cannot recall (but I could be wrong) any articles that is explicitly aimed at expressing the opinions of other ethnic groups. Currently, the main concerns of TOC seems to be on the poor of Singapore as well as the failings of the government, i.e. general issues of Singaporeans, and this is goes above ethnic issues. Of course, if a well written piece by an external writer is sent to TOC expounding these views, I think they will be more than welcome to publish it.

If it is the latter, then maybe the writers at TOC should take note of it. Like I said, I’m not aware of articles that are leaving out Malay opinion, but that’s because I’ve never taken ethnicity into consideration (majority or minority) when reading.

Ultimately, I think the best way is to have Malay writers, but they (writers) are not easy to find.

So in response to your devil’s advocate question (#24), I doubt that TOC is doing so. And of course, any political groups need the support of minority (after all, in principle, a democracy is a protection of the minority), but do avoid conflating TOC with any political groups.

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

33) And the non-muslims on December 30th, 2008 7.35 pm And while we’re at it, why are you even advocating for the Muslims based on votes?

If you feel that Muslims (and other minority races / religions) are being marginalised, then work to change it because we’re all Singaporeans, and no one should be discriminated against based on race / religion. It’s a sorry state when it’s done because of votes, and not because it is what is right
35) Gilbert Goh on December 30th, 2008 8.49 pm I dont see why TOC should not delve into what Dr Syed Alwi has proposed.

I think we have all grown matured since LSL allows us to have more political space.

If we self censored like the MSM then it will only bring us backward. We should be able to handle racial issues in online journalism which MSM has so far avoided.

I remembered a reporter wrote on Muslim Malay issues during the 2008 National Day and her report was surprisingly allowed and commended. Many Malays also wrote in to say that they were marginalised in our society. To me it was a step forward in our society for racial issues which are all hidden but always there.

Perhaps Dr Syed Alwi can try to write a piece on such issue and emailed to TOC. If it is valid I dont see why TOC won’t publish it.

Thanks.
36) Dr Syed Alwi on December 30th, 2008 8.57 pm Dear People,

I do not live in a make-believe world. I am honest enough to face political reality. Our immediate neighbours are NOT India, China nor America. They are Muslim countries. For better or for worse - thats our karma (according to Vivian Balakrishnan).

Indeed - so serious are the implications - that our founding fathers thought it deserved mention in Article 152 of our Constitution. Have you heard of Article 152 of our beloved Constitution ?

Now - the Malay-Muslims have a dear attachment to all things Islamic. If TOC and this nascent Democratic movement wants to be inclusive and wants legitimacy not only from the ethnic majority - but also from the Malays - then she MUST provide a platform for Malay-Muslim voices.

What does being inclusive mean when you refuse to provide a voice for your ethnic minorities ? Where are the articles on Islam ? On Malaysia ? On Indonesia ? On the rise of Islamic parties there ? Where ? Where are the articles on Malay-Muslim issues in Singapore ? Where ?

What does the Constitution mean if Article 152 is ignored - by the very people who claim to uphold the Constitution ?

What does being sensitive mean - when your Muslim neighbours are going through an Islamic upheaval - but you don’t carry any relevant analysis ?

TOC presents itself as an alternative to the MSM. But by shutting out the voices of our ethnic minorities - TOC is no better than the MSM.

At the end of the day - political realities will prevail. If this infant Democratic movement cannot find space to include Malay-Muslim voices - then I am sure there will be other political parties - like the PAP - who will capitalise on this……Remember Aljunied GRC…………

Sincerely
Dr Syed Alwi
37) zhummmeng on December 30th, 2008 9.09 pm Dr Syed Alwi, stop shooting in the dark. Please be specific on the issues you want this blog to discuss.You should propose the topics. Of course not topics that
will result in riot .Pushing the OB slightly may be ok but not over to the taboo area.
You don’t represent the minority. Don’t go fishing in ponds infested with piranhas or buayas.
38) moshedyan on December 30th, 2008 9.14 pm [i
i dont recall/see any TOC blockin YOU for your writeup?
but here you are
DEMANDIN a free write
with a handicap
liked
if you are not with me
i would not give you
a malay/islam votes from geylang serai perhaps?
what constitution are you mubblin here?
according to MY constituion
i have the right to MY cpf withdrawal @ aged 55
do i see you fightin for MY constitution?
you would have said
but
i am not reachin 55 so soon
so what kind of platform do you require?
give me a floorplan
unless you also expect me to draft a floorplan for you
free of charge as well?
whatever
OUR neighbour countries is doin to upheave evils or any otherwise
i leave that to our prince the prime minister and his father to solve it out
i don’t think mindef would just hand me the armoury keys for me/us to help ourselves…
so would you be kind enough to stand on your owned 2 feet
for i already find it quite difficult/expensive to buy a goreng pisang or two…

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

39) me on December 30th, 2008 9.21 pm “What does being sensitive mean - when your Muslim neighbours are going through an Islamic upheaval - but you don’t carry any relevant analysis ?”

i really don’t see how is this being sensitive or insensitive of TOC. Since when is TOC indebted into analysing what our neighbours do, Muslim or non-Muslim? and how is that related to TOC being insensitive?

“TOC presents itself as an alternative to the MSM. But by shutting out the voices of our ethnic minorities - TOC is no better than the MSM.”

An alternative does not mean purposely stepping across OB markers. It means a different view of current affairs and politics and whatsoever, not bringing up clearly forbidden issues.

I tried to explain why we should not let the last few bastions of free press be subverted by government actions by crossing clear OB lines. Would you rather have a full-blown online forum to discuss racial and religious issues, in which netizens will easily take sides behind anonymous pennames and create unnecessary ill-feelings and then the government steps in to shut it down, or you prefer to have a functioning TOC that tries to bring news to all Singaporeans, regardless of race, language or religion? Like I said, what you require now, you are asking from the wrong avenue. You need to ask the government to shift the OB markers, before TOC can move. I don’t think TOC should be partial to any race or religious groups just because they ask for it, and risk being cut off by the government and thus depriving the majority of the population/readership. and no this comment was not meant only for Muslims, although it might seem so because you brought it up. It is meant for all racial and religious groups.

“What does being inclusive mean when you refuse to provide a voice for your ethnic minorities ? Where are the articles on Islam ? On Malaysia ? On Indonesia ? On the rise of Islamic parties there ? Where ? Where are the articles on Malay-Muslim issues in Singapore ? Where ?”

Last but not least, Muslims are minorities yes, but not the only ones. Same goes to Islam. There are other religions too. Please do try to be more understanding because your world does not mean the whole world, and the same standards applies to everyone else, Christians, Catholics, Free-thinkers, Buddhists etc.
40) me on December 30th, 2008 9.24 pm and of course, if Dr Syed Alwi here has a great article to contribute and which does not cross OB boundaries(key factor), please feel free to contribute. I do not believe TOC will attempt to censor or not publish it.
41) theonlinecitizen on December 30th, 2008 9.36 pm Dear Syed Alwi,

First, I do not understand why you keep talking about “winning the minority or Malay vote”. TOC is not a political party which is standing for elections. So, there are no questions of winning any votes, be they majority or minority votes. The issue doesn’t even come into consideration as far as TOC is concerned. So, I am not sure why you keep bringing up that point.

Second, TOC has never said that it totally forbids articles on Muslim issues. In fact, we published at leats four articles relating to religion or Muslim/Islam issues:

Beyond Tokenism: Malays, integration and the SAF.

Malays in 2007: Renewed confidence amidst turbulence?.

Islam in Singapore : Where to from here ?.

Religion and the right not to respect it.

For your information, in the last two years that TOC has been online, we have only rejected one article about Islam. It was about a couple’s situation vis a vis Shariah Law. We rejected it for publication as it was a one-sided account from the husband’s point of view and also we, the editors, did not have a good-enough understanding of the Law. So, we decided it was best not to publish it.

Finally, let me assure everyone that articles about race and religion are welcome on TOC - subject to the same criterias we have for all articles - and to the editors’ approval for publication.

I think some of your criticisms about us are unfair.

Regards,
Andrew Loh
42) theonlinecitizen on December 30th, 2008 9.43 pm Syed Alwi,

You said, “TOC presents itself as an alternative to the MSM. But by shutting out the voices of our ethnic minorities - TOC is no better than the MSM.”

On the contrary, I have always said that TOC can never be an alternative to the MSM. I do not know where you got the impression that we are. I think you are mistaken.

You should know the huge gulf between a professionally-run full media outfit and a simple blog site. So, the comparison is not a very accurate one.

Regards,
Andrew Loh

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

45) Dr Syed Alwi on December 30th, 2008 10.14 pm Dear TOC,

You cannot be a responsible socio-political blog - if you refuse to shoulder the political implications of your writings. By publishing articles critical of the Establishment - you encourage and support the Opposition cause. If you now want to wash your hands clean - well - thats a little late.

You are branded and stereotyped - blogger-activism, anti-Establishment etc Thats your own doing. The question now that you have attained such status is - are you now going to shut out Malay-Muslim voices from this nascent Democratic movement ?

You bring forward only 4 articles on Malay-Muslim issues. Good - indeed - 2 of them were mine !!

I - Dr Syed Alwi - wrote 2 of the miserly 4 articles ! Goodness. Is that something to brag about ?

Look people - TOC has been branded as anti-Establishment. You have a moral responsibility. You cannot just write articles like these, organise blogger-activisim - and then walk away from your moral responsibilities. The Americans have a saying :

If you wanna play - then you gotta pay !

Let the world know - 2 of your 4 miserly articles by Malays, on Malay-Muslim issues - were by me !!

What are your plans for the future ? Do you plan to carry articles from Malaysia ? From Indonesia ? From other Singaporean Malay-Muslims ? You can easily carry good articles from Malaysia and Indonesia.

You cannot start a Democratic movement - and then suddenly walk away from the responsibilities that comes along with it.

And that is why the PAP will continue to rule this country for the longest time………The Alternatives are even worse…………

Sincerely
Dr Syed Alwi
47) Andrew Loh on December 30th, 2008 10.30 pm Dear Syed Alwi,

I think four articles is a reflection, perhaps, of the interest in the issues you are concerned about. It’s the same as the gay issue. We do not have many people who would want to write about that either.

But please be reasonable. Understand that writing about any particular ethnic or racial or religious issue requires a deeper understanding of the issues - simply because they are sensitive - or can be sensitive - issues.

And I have said before, honestly and openly, that we in the editorial team do not know everything abot such issues. This is not a desertation of duty (if you want to call it that) but an honest and frank answer.

Having said that, I reiterate that we do not reject all articles about any racial or religious issue.

Lastly, let me say that the question of minorities - be they Malays, PRs or gays, for example - speaking up or getting involved is one faced by many organisations, including political parties. We all know how hard it is for the PAP and the opposition parties to seek out and attract minority candidates, for example.

So, your diatribe against TOC is a misplaced one.

Andrew Loh
49) Andrew Loh on December 30th, 2008 10.34 pm Syed Alwi,

You said: “You cannot start a Democratic movement - and then suddenly walk away from the responsibilities that comes along with it.”

First of all, we, as many others, seek greater democracy, yes. But to say that because of this, the responsibilities rests solely on us is misguided. The responsibility belongs to each and every Singaporean. Not just us alone.

And we are not “suddenly walk[ing] away” from such responsibilities. Just because we do not cover the issues you are concerned about and cover them as much as you like, does not mean we are “suddenly walking away” from the responsibilities.

I think that is a simplistic and unfair conclusion you have drawn.
50) Andrew Loh on December 30th, 2008 10.37 pm By the way, Syed Alwi, if you would like to contribute articles about the Malay community or Islam, we will be glad to consider them for publication - just as your previous articles were.
52) EQ please on December 30th, 2008 10.50 pm Dear Readers of TOC,

regardless of race, language or religion,
singaporeans have proven we can live in harmony.
lets keep it that way.
there is no need to get agitated in anyway for all of us.
religions are all beautiful.
Lets show our tolerance for others.
Lets discuss things with a cool mind.

its not the end of the world.
just the end of 2008.

we have bigger objectives to focus on - our common goals.
53) patriot on December 30th, 2008 11.01 pm Dear Dr Syed;

please allow me to add on to Andrew Lohs’ Post#49.

I am convinced by Singaporedaddy Post#23.

Dr Syed; do write to TOC and get members of your community to contribute as well. As I have said above, You have not been censored and You Know as You had contributed two articles. Yes, I was foolish and maybe even stubborn not to hear You out, let me just do it as adviced.

Mr Bean, I share your sentiments for I was, am never disappointed whenever I read the Brotherhood Press. I have just returned here from the Sg Daily 30th Dec 2008. Darkness has just spoken(written) as usual, he is comforting/consoling netizens and he is shining as usual.

It would be nice if parliamentarians, including the Post 65 ers, are to engage us here, I wish they hear me here. I am sure we all welcome them, Cyberspace is for all of us.

patriot

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

54) Yamasam on December 30th, 2008 11.27 pm To #44 Dr Syed Alwi

TOC is a responsible social political blog indeed. Sure, there are numerous articles that are critical of the policies and actions/non-action by our establishments, that doesn’t imply TOC is anti-establishment.

Just like 66.6% who voted for the PAP doesn’t mean this group of voters will agree with every action and policy implemented by the PAP govt. Conversely, the other 33.4% who voted against the PAP doesn’t mean all of them will shoot down every action and policy of the PAP govt.

All of us have the right to agree or disagree with the establishments. We give credit where credit is due and we put across our views if we disagree. That doesn’t mean we will support the opposition cause blindly. By the same token, just because TOC has more articles criticising the establishments doesn’t imply it is supporting the opposition cause.

TOC has never stated it is an all-encompassing blog that will cover every issue of interest to all parties. If one is to look at the page view statistics of the different articles, it is quite clear that certain issues generate more interest than others. Similarly, some articles attracted more comments than others. But it did not stop the articles of lesser general interest being published.

The fact that you have 2 of your articles published shows that TOC will publish articles submitted deemed to be of interest to its readers. If you feel that there are more issues related to areas of your concern, than feel free to write articles to express your views on them and submit to TOC. Better still, find more like minded people to contribute their articles.

TOC are managed by a group of volunteers and articles are written by writers on topics of interest to them. If their interest area does not coincide with yours, then it is not their fault. I don’t think it is their responsibility to cater to the needs of everyone. If the articles published do not interest me, I won’t bother to return. You can do the same.

When you talk about carry articles about Malaysia and Indonesia, what nature of articles are you referring to ? Malaysia local politics ? Indonesia local politics ? What is the purpose of publishing such articles ?

In my humble opinion, with due respect to the TOC writers and the many contributors, how much do we know about the affairs of Malaysia or Indonesia to be able to comment much less to write articles that is fair and substantiated.

In fact, articles commenting on our own national affairs already have lots of room for improvement. So let’s not stick our fingers in somebody else’s pie.

Did TOC started any democratic movement ? Democracy is enshrined in our Constitution. Our school kids recite “To build a democratic society” in the national pledge everyday. Democracy is supposed to be alive already in Singapore.

TOC only provide a platform for Singapore citizens to exercise their right to express their opinion and they have more than carry out their responsibilities admirably.
55) Dr Syed Alwi on December 30th, 2008 11.40 pm Dear TOC,

I think that you can get good articles of interest on Malay-Muslim issues if you are willing to publish articles from the Malaysian cyber-space. Try Malaysia Today. I am sure Raja Petra will be helpful. Otherwise try Malaysiakini and so on. I myself have many articles published in the Malaysian cyber-space.

Indeed - in my writings and postings - I took the stand that we must be careful about the rise of PAS. Writing about Malay-Muslim issues can even be a criticism of the Malay-Muslim community ! Have you people thought about that ?

Personally I am of the opinion that TOC should simply publish some of the better articles in Malaysian cyber-space. Thats good enough. It can even be written by Non-Malays. As long as it is of interest to the Malay-Muslim community in particular - and the larger Singaporean society in general - then its worth publishing.

Where there’s a will - there will be a way…………..I hope to see a better, more mature TOC in 2009.

Happy New Year everyone.

Regards
Dr Syed Alwi
56) Mr Brown on December 30th, 2008 11.53 pm Hi there!

TOC in my view is just like any other blog out there. I have personally seen posters here barred for no apparent reason. Their material just removed without rhyme or reason. Neither did I see anything defamatory or subversive about what these people wrote. They just held a different opinion from those who happen to run TOC. Dont believe me go and ask Andrew, I even have mirror copies to substantiate what I have just written. He would be the first to agree to this. So let us not fool ourselves or delude ourselves that TOC is any higher or lower than what it is.

It is A blog. Like all others. Nothing more or less. Like the others. No higher or taller. Just a blog.

Syed Alwi, the sooner you understand this. The better it will be for you and all of us.
57) me on December 31st, 2008 12.14 am i’m really sorry but asking TOC to carry more muslim-malay articles in 2009 does not translate into a better, more mature TOC, just as asking TOC to carry more Christian or Buddhist articles will make TOC better or mature. Please don’t be as narrow minded to think that the entire world is either with Islam and Muslims or against them. This is not the case.

You have said something honest at the top that basically spelled out what you stand for. ‘Now - the Malay-Muslims have a dear attachment to all things Islamic.”

This sentence tells me just exactly what you stand for, which is what i mentioned above, about the world being either with Islam or against Islam. I fully accept the attachment that they have, but it is just narrow-minded to think that the rest of the world that doesn’t hold dear those things are against you, or that they don’t value the things you all hold dear. Please, this world goes beyond religion and race. Both are big things but not universal things. Love, compassion and empathy are. And TOC has repeatedly shown you that there are open to articles as long as OB markers are met and that min standards are reached.

Happy New Year to you too, and may 2009 be a great year for you. =)

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

59) A Tan on December 31st, 2008 8.41 am Dr Syed Alwi

In all yr comments, I do not see any offer to help working with the TOC team on issues that you think are impt..

Offer the help and see what happens?

And help doesn’t mean writing articles yrself. Send an email to TOC
60) 2cent on December 31st, 2008 9.16 am #18) Dr Syed Alwi on December 30th, 2008 5.51 pm

You must first understand that the average Malay-Muslim Singaporean has a different “taste-bud” ; they do NOT view things the same way as you do.

#25) Dr Syed Alwi on December 30th, 2008 6.29 pm Dear People,

Is TOC marginalising the ethnic-minority voices in our pluralistic society ??

Dr Syed, you said “You must first understand …”, so the matter is simply lack of undersanding and knowledge of the issues, not “marginalising”.

Start the ball rolling, help people understand the issues you see. Start writing and submit them to blogs.
61) Dr Syed Alwi on December 31st, 2008 9.16 am Dear People,

No Mr Brown - I disagree with you about TOC being just a blog. You cyber-activists have a moral responsibility since you cyber-activists are pushing for a pro-Democracy movement. You cannot simply wash your hands and walk-away when that responsibility comes-a-calling.

To A. Tan - I have sent e-mails regarding this matter to TOC. I myself have written articles for TOC. So don’t say that I did not do anything.

At the end of the day - this pro-Democracy movement will have to face political realities like everyone else. I am tired of arguing about this. So let it remain and let everyone take notice of it.

Regards
Dr Syed Alwi
62) 2cent on December 31st, 2008 9.32 am #61) Dr Syed Alwi on December 31st, 2008 9.16 am Dear People,

At the end of the day - this pro-Democracy movement will have to face political realities like everyone else. I am tired of arguing about this. So let it remain and let everyone take notice of it.

Now is pre-dawn of this pro-Democracy movement, there is much works to be done before we move anywhere closer to the end of the day. By then, I think you will see what you want. But not now, not just yet.
63) redbean on December 31st, 2008 10.07 am interesting discussion here. toc is a social political blog where such issues are discussed. if possible, we should avoid mixing political issues with religious issues. the polarisation among the various religious groups is too deep and irreconcilable that you cannot expect them to agree on their fundamental beliefs. any forms of superficial agreements, or sitting together, is only for political expediency. deep down, some religions just cannot accommodate other religions. it is futile and destructive to embroil religion with politics. toc must be aware of this danger and stay clear of it.

as for discussing malay/muslim interests, anyone is at liberty to share his or her views and let the bloggers carry on from there. syed alwi can start the ball rolling by making a few posts here to generate interest in the subject. if the issues are interesting the rest can just join in.

it is unfair to insist that other bloggers or toc initiate posts on malay/muslim issues as they may not be too conversant with them. the issues must originate from those who are passionate about them. it can be hypocritical and superficial if done otherwise.
64) mynewyearwish on December 31st, 2008 10.19 am Hi

(a) syed alwi - this is a social political blog.

(b) Mr brown / Gilbert / Bean - no one disagrees a dialogue between the blogging community and govt will benefit society. The question is not whether, but how can this be accomplished constructively?

We like to believe the best way to do it is through TOC. But does TOC represent the majority or collective mindset which makes up blogosphere? I dont think they do.

For there to be an all inclusive dialogue. It doesnt pay to marginalize anyone. Look what happened when deregulated the net marginalized the bros? They went their way. They openly refused to work with AIMs. They went direct to govt. That was crazy. So even the bros need to come in to make it rounded. What you said abt them Mr Brown is very true, “you do it our way. Or you dont do it!” That is why if the relationship is not well managed it will turn ugly.

I do however believe TOC should harness their strenght and experience especially in growing a online newspaper. They can help alot in the billing, legal and economic part, but like I said, you need to manage the relationship.

My fear is the relationship between the bros and toc has deteriorated markly. This I have noticed from SD recent post. He is holding back information. That is never a good sign. To me, it means he is ordered to do so. It also means they are preparing for war. My hope is that both parties can sit down and cooperate and work towards a mutually restive and dignified working relationship. Only then can all of us benefit and reap the rewards.

Happy new year all!

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

69) A Tan on December 31st, 2008 10.37 am Dr Alwi

When I said “send emails”, I made a mistake. I meant to write “send emails with links to articles that you think TOC shld link to. And give reasons.”

Try this for awhile and tell us abt yr experiences.

And yr statements above on the failure to include Malay Muslims views are so sweeping. Can you give specific examples of articles where TOC shld have reflected their views, but didn’t.
70) Dr Syed Alwi on December 31st, 2008 11.03 am Dear A Tan,

Yes - I HAVE done that ! I have sent e-mails complete with articles etc from Malaysian cyberspace - but to no avail.

Look - I am tired of this debate. You fellas ought to think about these issues deeply. They are NOT trivial and have very serious repercussions.

I quote LKY - “Politics in South East Asia is a deadly serious business…”

Can we end this debate here - and let everyone take notice of what has been said ?? I am too tired to continue this debate………………….

Regards
Dr Syed Alwi
71) Gorilla Voice on December 31st, 2008 11.20 am Syed Alwi,

That is ridiculous. You are tired? You were the one who brought up the topic and started lambasting everyone of those “blogger-activists” for being irresponsible!

Now that you are asked very sharp questions, you want to withdraw? Who is the one being irresponsible now?

Lets take your arguments and see if you can answer these questions constructively:

1. You said 4 articles are “miserly”. How many articles do you wish TOC to publish on Malay/Muslim issues - per day, per week, per month?

2. How do you suggest that TOC find enough people who are adequately qualified to write about Malay/Muslim issues?

Just these two questions for now. Lets see if you can come up with something constructive instead of your finger-pointing and grand demands.
72) moshedyan on December 31st, 2008 11.47 am [
ole yes i do take NOTICE
you quote lky
yet i don’t see you in seekin lky help
afterall is he not your leader?
did he not give YOU as a malay/islam an added handicap amon the other races
do you needs me to cite the priviledges in details?
(this will defitenitely irk the mosque followers)
so
it is better for
YOU
to take notice
not me
thats for sured
for i am indeed a cruel heartless cold person
but whenever a beggar stretched his hands
i will give a $ or $2 (mostly $2 as it the only smallest denomination in PAPER)
to any hands whether it dark or halah
for i know
when i am in dire straits
any hands will give me a helpin hands in return……
73) Dr Syed Alwi on December 31st, 2008 11.51 am Dear Gorilla Voice,

Why don’t TOC publish good articles regarding these issues - but from the Malaysian cyberspace ? After all TOC did meet up with Malaysiakini. I am sure Raja Petra of Malaysia Today will be of help if approached by TOC.

You must remember - when you speak of a “we” - who is that “we” ? The Bloggers-13 face a similar problem - they do not carry the Malay-Muslim perspective !

That has always been Singapore’s Malay Dilemma. Thats is why even Yusuf Ishak’s niece (Lily Zubaidah) wrote that book on the Singapore Dilemma !!

Regards
Dr Syed Alwi

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

75) Singaporedaddy on December 31st, 2008 12.44 pm Good Morning,

Dr Syed Alwi, how is it the Singapore’s Malay Dilemma? Tell me are you referring to the same dilemma that Mahathir wrote about in the 70’s; I dont understand. Can you please kindly explain?

——————————————————————————-

Dear all,

I can understand if some of you choose to write negative things about the brotherhood; but you should try to keep to the facts and not run wild making rabid accusations. This I feel is not too much to ask, common courtesy; that is.

SD (Internet Liaison officer of the brotherhood)
77) Zefly (aka Joshua Chiang) on December 31st, 2008 2.21 pm Okies,

With regards to the issue calls to be ‘religious-free’, I quote one of the comments here-

“These requests were made recently during the Christmas Season when some posters extended their wishes with praises to their belief.”

I feel that we need to define exactly what is being religious free. After all, almost everyone has a perception of what ‘God’ means to them… Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Taoists, Jews, Sikhs… agnostics, and yes, even aetheists. And these really define us as who we are. Eg, my ideas of social justice and morality were formed initially by Confucianism (more of philosophy), and Buddhism, and later, Catholicism. (I have to admit to have a very shallow understanding of every other faiths) And inevitably, whenever I explain my position, I have to explain where the position came from, with regards to my beliefs. Eg, “as a Buddhist, I believe that it is only the right thing to do to be compassionate” Or, a Christian would most likely have to explain why gay rights should or shouldn’t be supported based quite largely on HIS understanding of his religious beliefs.

Or maybe use a few examples of religious figures to back up an argument. But these are also because the examples are known to almost everyone else.

So, let’s not get too politically correct either and keep it so religious-free that it stops people from even saying anything remotely linked to any faiths. Frankly, I find nothing wrong with someone wishing ‘God bless you!” or even post the whole Nativity Story according to Luke during Xmas. I mean, these guys are doing it out of goodwill.

Just because you don’t believe in God, or believe in a different God shouldn’t make you feel offended when someone wishes you well according to his belief. In fact, wouldn’t it be better to be happy, that despite religious difference, that his/her greeting is not just limited to his/her brethen?

But of course, we shouldn’t go too far either. We shouldn’t have the ‘My god is bigger than your god’ kinda arguments here. This shouldn’t be a forum for debating whether Jesus is a prophet or a Savior, or whether Buddha is sexist for initially excluding women in his sangha. These are pointless debates that very rarely convert anyone anyway.

Lastly, fanatism and fundermentalism exists in different forms and not just limited to people of monoethist faiths. Yes, even among aethists. I have known aethists who took offense even on banners hung outside churches. So let’s all just be aware of our own tendencies towards double standards and intolerance.

Shalom, hugs.
80) K Das on December 31st, 2008 5.40 pm Dr Syed Alwi, In wanting TOC to carry and highlight Malay-Muslim issues you ask: What are the views of Chinese Singaporeans towards Islam? What are the views of the Malay Muslims regarding Islam in Singapore and so on? In my view the majority Singapore Chinese (and others) and the Government have gone extra miles to give a wider berth for the Malays to preach, practice and live by Islam. There is a surfeit of beautiful mosques in every corner of Singapore to serve the Malay/Muslim community. Unlike the churches and temples where attendance seems to be dropping by the day, the mosques, on the other hand, are overflowing with crowds on Fridays. Cars parked in long stretches along roads in breach of traffic rules right up to the traffic light junction is a common sight outside mosques on Fridays. Bring this up and this will be made an “issue” targeted at them. The majority and the traffic police by and large take it along their stride. Do this outside a Church or Temple so brazenly, it is more likely than not, that you will see a summons on the windscreen. Food Courts completely “halal” is another trend in fashion overriding their business viability beyond a limited period. The majority sacrifice their taste buds to accommodate this special minority I have also heard stories of there being micro-oven for the exclusive use of Muslim staff at pantries at some private sector and Govt offices for them to heat up their ‘halal’ food uncontaminated.

You huff and puff without having the intellectual and moral courage to air your inner most thoughts on issues that affect the Malays and Muslims that trouble you. Probably you don’t want to for understandable reasons. Why are not Malays given sensitive posts in Mindef and in Cabinet? To the blue-blood non-Muslim Singaporeans they are Singaporeans (Nationalists) first, everything else (race, religion etc) comes secondary. But for Muslim leaders all over the world (with rare exceptions), both past and present, they are Muslims first, Nationalists second. Islam consumes their mind and Islam runs their lives. Islam is a beautiful and practical religion. I have written an essay on that. But the point to note is that man should control religion and not let religion control him. Let religion be within the boundary of your heart and home and not bring it to public, regional and international space and all will be well and perhaps in 10-20 years you will see a Malay as Permanent Secretary and another as cabinet Minister holding a sensitive portfolio. There is no glass ceiling. It is a ceiling you create for yourself
81) Ark on December 31st, 2008 7.26 pm f there are real issues then they should be discussed, but issues should not be raised simply for the sake of “winning the vote” of some racial/religious group….it will only create trouble. also, if you think there is a lack of representation of “muslim views”, it is even more serious with regard to… say buddhist views on gerrymandering? Besides, if there’s any religious group that receive substantially more air-time than others when it comes to national issues in spore, it’d really have to be the christians above all (thanks to gay issues and their evangelistic nature etc). Is this syed really that insular to think that non-muslims happen to be one homogeneous group? Or he’s probably getting confused after watching too much politics in bolehland, where talking abt some racial/religious “vote” is often a convenient and divisive measure for political ends.

Lastly, you might not like what you ask for…when somebody likewise decides to “win the chinese vote” by suggesting that non-chinese be deported for any number of plausible reasons etc
82) Dr Syed Alwi on December 31st, 2008 8.51 pm Dear K Das and Ark

Your comments are dangerous ! If you expect Muslims to somehow be “less Muslim” - then I think that there will be trouble.

If Singapore attempts to dilute Islam - Malays will simply switch loyalty to Malaysia and Indonesia. Worse still - the JI and Al-Qaeda will take advantage of this.

You want to change Islam ? Be my guest. It will take you another 100 to 200 years. These are the political realities facing you.

As for Ark - my challenge to you is to do a Google search and read my articles in Malaysian cyberspace. You have no idea who you are talking to. Go find out about my writings in Malaysiakini, Malaysia Today and elsewhere in Malaysian cyberspace.

Best Regards
Dr Syed Alwi
83) SZ on December 31st, 2008 9.14 pm Dr Syed Alwi,

that’s a touchy issue that you are trying to get TOC into…i believe it is literally a minefield.

foreign relationship is important, but domestic matters are even more so….and TOC has been trying to bring up alot of domestic issue and i say that it is very well done.
84) K Das on December 31st, 2008 11.08 pm Dear Dr Syed Alwi,

You put provocative questions and want answers and when others do, you get hot under the collar. To label the expression of views of others critical of yours as dangerous is, by itself, dangerous. Why must you ask for views? Just post your views and stop there. If you can’t take the heat, get out of the kitchen. My apology nevertheless if I had stepped on your toes. Anyway let us not drag this issue any longer and get TOC into trouble.
85) Dr Syed Alwi on December 31st, 2008 11.22 pm Dear K Das,

You seem to not be able to accept the reality of Singapore’s situation in South East Asia. Whether you like it or not - you will need the Malay support. And they will only support you - if you are sensitive towards Islam.

You can shout at the PAP as much as you like. But if you cannot get Malay support - you cannot win in any GRC. Thats the political reality you face.

You think this nascent pro-Democracy movement will go far here in Singapore ?

I do not think so. I am NOT pro-PAP - but like many others - I will vote if PAP if the other alternatives are worse…..If supporting the pro-Democracy movement means that the Malays will be marginalised - then I think most Malays will continue to support the PAP - including me.

Look - don’t talk like a child - be brave enough to face political realities.

Regards
Dr Syed Alwi

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

86) Benjamin Cheah on January 1st, 2009 12.19 am Dr Syed Alwi,

I understand that you are very passionate about Malay Muslim issues. But presenting them with the level of aggressiveness you are adopting is not passion. It is intellectual violence. It is doing violence to democracy, whose inner workings are based on respect and compromise. It is one thing to talk about democracy, but quite another when the speaker does not demonstrate that he is willing to listen to another point of view, but instead continuously pushes his agenda with ever-increasing aggression.

Thus far, TOC has shown you a lot of respect. We have published the articles you have written for us. We have not deleted your posts on this article. Andrew has even taken some time to address your concerns, as have the other posters. If they didn’t care about what you have said, they would have insulted you or ignored you instead of addressing your points.

However, you have responded with defensiveness, aggressiveness, accusations, and demands. The message you are sending is one of intolerance, inflexibility, and disrespect. You are presenting the image of a crude, boorish absolutist. Your latest admonitions to not ‘talk like a child’ is reinforcing this image. In short, everybody else here feels that you are not extended the same respect they have extended to you. I personally believe that some are so tired of this that they no longer wish to reply. It is a natural response to frustration.

I think you do have valid points to raise. That you have been published on TOC is proof of that. But if you do not present yourself as someone who is willing to respect his readers by calmly discussing issues, and instead project yourself as aggressively as possible, you are showing that you will not listen to others. This is a signal of disrespect to other people. Your intended audience will then decide that you are not worth listening to, and switch off. Consequently, you will finish up shouting in the dark, forever.

So, please tone down and consider the points raised by the other posters. Only then will we talk about what you have to say.
87) K Das on January 1st, 2009 12.30 am Excellent damage control excercise on your part Dr Syed Alwi. Having exposed the true nature of yourself to one and all, you now play your dubious pro-PAP card to salvage yourself. You think the PAP or for that matter any political party that matters, will trust you? Good try
88) Andrew Loh on January 1st, 2009 12.54 am Dear everyone,

Please refrain from making personal remarks. Also, please remember that the article is about the year of the blogger-activist - and not Malay/Muslim issues.

Syed Alwi,
You have made some disparaging remarks about fellow posters. One of your comments is disallowed, along with one by Ark. I hope you can refrain from doing so further.

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

89) moshedyan on January 1st, 2009 1.15 am [
so who are you actually?
a regular visitor to the kelantan VD clinic?
sured you can write
i also can write/published articles from here through yahoo.igloo.alaska in native alaska lingo…
ps.
i am D BLOKE who shut down intel.com forum
with my kachang puteh IT skill
not a hacker or a cracker
just usin my WITS to challenge those HAVARD MIT graduates…
so
please don’t come harpin
how great you are
now do you want me to interpret in arabic as well?

هكذا الذي يكون أنت واقعيّا? زائرة نظاميّة إلى [كلنتن] [فد] مصحة? يوقن أنت يستطيع كتبت أنا أيضا يستطيع كتبت/ينشر مواد من هنا كلّيّا [يهوو.يغلوو.لسكا] في أهليّ طبيعيّ ألسكا كتيلة… [ب.س.]. أنا [د] [بلوك] الذي يعطّل intel.com ساحة مع ي [كشنغ] [بوته] هو مهارة لا مستقطعة أو جهاز تكسير فقط يستعمل ذاكراتي أن يتحدّى أنّ [هفرد] [ميت] يتخرّج… هكذا سررت لا يأتي [هربينغ] كيف عظيمة أنت تكون الآن أنت يريدني أن يفسّر في العربية أيضا? [أر فن] يهودية?
90) Dr Syed Alwi on January 1st, 2009 1.17 am Dear K Das,

This is not about damage control. This is about political realities. What is my true nature. Have you even read my writings in Malaysian cyberspace ? Do you know what I have written there ?

Go read it first…..
91) moshedyan on January 1st, 2009 1.33 am [iplease share with us on this one
the same person wrote this…

On Oct 1, Dr Syed Alwi Ahmad, with a doctorate in philosophy, said it was the onus on Muslims to make Islam attractive.

“In today’s world, scepticism, secular humanism and scientific progressivism has made religion unattractive,” he added. There was no need to return to the 7th Century.

“Malaysia is not Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan under the Taliban. Elfie (who had advocated zero tolerance for apostasy) can continue to practice whatever religion he believes in.

“That’s his business. Just don’t tell me how to practice mine. Stay out of the personal, religious affairs of others. Modernity is here to stay whether or not Elfie approves of it.”

“In Singapore, people can renounce their religion as and when they like it and there is no pressure to practice one belief.

“It is wrong to force one to hold on to a religion that one doesn’t believe in and this it contradicts the claim that Islam is not about force.”

…………………………………………………………………………………………..
so in your owned views
as a malaysian
you said
do not forced others to believe
if they do not want to believe or get involved with
but here you are
doing exactly
the opposite thinggie you wrote in a malaysian blog ….
so what are you?
a twinheaded snake
or those kind
who sit where the aircon winds blows?
you tell me
p.s.
how did you get your doctorate?
can i buy 1 as well?

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

92) Dr Syed Alwi on January 1st, 2009 1.45 am Dear Benjamin Seah,

Have you read my writings in Malaysian cyberspace ? Do you know that I come out in favour of the Malaysian Chinese over there ? Yet here in my own homeland ??

I do not understand you people here. I think I have been nice. There is nothing here that I have said that is so very very wrong. What do you people want ? Yes there are valid issues. Thats why we discuss them.

The most important issue here is that this blogger activism and nascent pro-Democracy movement in Singapore does NOT have any Malay participation. Why ? Ask yourself that question………………

And yes its about votes. What do you think politics is ? And the political reality is that - here in Singapore - your nascent pro-Democracy movement has no Malay support until you can attract Malays - which means you have to be sensitive to Malay issues.

Yes - I have written articles here. But why is it that there are very few articles regarding Malay Muslim issues - especially at a time when Islamic parties are marching through the streets of Malaysia and Indonesia ? Strange isn’t it ?

It seems to me - the other readers just do not want to hear of these issues. I have just gone through ALL the postings above. I do not see any posting of mine that is so terribly wrong. None at all.

What I have said is common. Nothing new. Some people do not want to hear about these issues. But they are there.

I think the lack of awareness of these issues is precisely an indicator of how little the Malay participation is in national dialogue. And one reason is this - the lack of willingness to hear of issues that are of relevance to the Malay-Muslim community.

Again - I offered a solution. Get in touch with Malaysia Today or Malaysiakini and get them to help you publish relevant articles. That way - you can get Malay interest in your TOC.

All I see - is just people who do not even want to hear about Malay-Muslim issues. I think that under the circumstances - I have been fair and polite to them.

Am I aggressive and defensive ? Sure - in view of the prevalent attitude like this.
I think thats understandable.

I make no apologies for pointing out the obvious political realities. At the end of the day - we all are subject to these political realities. What is so wrong about pointing them out ?

Think about it………….

Best Regards
Dr Syed Alwi
93) Dr Syed Alwi on January 1st, 2009 1.48 am Dear moshedayan,

Of course I wrote that. I was writing to Malaysiakini in view of the rise of PAS and intolerance in Malaysia. When are you going to stand up for Malays here in Singapore - as I have stood up for the Chinese in Malaysia ?

Regards
Dr Syed Alwi
94) moshedyan on January 1st, 2009 1.51 am so if you stood up for whatever race in another country
must i stood up
for saddam countrypeople as well?
who stood up for ME and my CPF?
95) K Das on January 1st, 2009 9.03 am Dear Dr Syed Alwi, It is indeed surprising that given all your learning you are so irrational and emotive. Why make religion a central plank to argue anything sensible? You say:” If Singapore attempts to dilute Islam - Malays will simply switch loyalty to Malaysia and Indonesia.” Just imagine that a war with Malaysia is imminent with an infantry battalion moved to the border and the man in charge happens to be one with your DNA. Singapore is finished! So sensitivity matters hence ultra caution is taken to make sure that the right people are chosen for sensitive posts.
96) patriot on January 1st, 2009 9.17 am Hi Zefly(aka Joshua Chiang) Post#77;

good morning and a Happy New Year to You and all.

Please allow me to say that belief is a very personal conviction and best keep in ones’ heart and not in ones’ mouth. We are all acutely aware that religions are sensitive matters because history has never fail to show that religions is divisive and have lead to much confrontations and wars. We should not deny that many of the ongoing disputes and wars are due to religions, be they within ones’ own country or between neighbours.

Frankly, I do not see any difficulty keeping ons’ belief within oneself and there should not be any difficulty to relate to one another in full goodwill without having to relate, refer and use of religion. This, I believed, is universal and eternal truth.

Dr Syed;

You insisted that TOC has no Malay/Muslim within its’ organization, I sincerely think You can help TOC to find some Malay/Muslims Members and even volunteering yourself to set an example to your community that You care and dare to dedicate yourself to seek Rights, freedom(democracy) and ideal for the good of all(every Race, Faith and creed). Your Doctorate in Philosophy will definitely put You in good stead to practice your belief in good faith to all others.

Our Good Friend Moshedyan had extracted a portion(good job! Moshedyan) of what You wrote in Malaysiakini and I find that You sounded very reasonable and acceptable to me there. Most of us had read your previous article(s) and commented quite favourably to them and You must have known the goodwills and appreciations of your contributions.

On this First Day of Year 2009, may I wish that we will have a good start to face the challenges ahead. Let us do away with antagonism, put our heads and hearts together, be kind and work towards a better tomorrow.

From: Yours Truly; patriot

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

97) K Das on January 1st, 2009 9.29 am Dear Patriot, Thanks for your embalming advisory. I will bury my hatchet and will not respond to Dr Syed Alwi any longer on this subject matter. Regards
98) Dr Syed Alwi on January 1st, 2009 11.17 am Dear Patriot & Others,

Allow me to say this one last advice. Dialogue in the communal politics of South East Asia is a two-way street. It cannot be one-way only. There must be give and take. You cannot just “take” all the time. You also have to “give”. Otherwise you won’t go far………..If a liberal, progressive malay like me has to say these things - then its a very sad situation indeed…

Regards
Dr Syed Alwi
99) WKC on January 1st, 2009 11.33 am After reading all the discussions, i cannot help arriving at these two conclusions:

[1] Dr Syed Alwi appears to be a person who is highly prejudiced or narrow minded.

[2] It would be difficult to maintain any rational discussions with such a person.

Religion to some people is a sensitive issue. As history can testify, religion has been a bane of humanity in terms of the significant number of lives lost through religious wars.

This quote from Steven Weinberg [a physicist] says something about religion:
“With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.”

I would like to express my disagreement with K Das’ opinion that Islam is a peaceful and beautiful religion. I get the impression that K Das must have read the Koran.

No religion, be it monotheistic or polytheistic, can lay claim to being a peaceful religion if it prescribes punishment for unbelievers, or believers of other faiths.

If I say God [Allah] is portrayed in the Bible as a genocidal maniac, would that be construed as blasphemy? Or should it be construed as mere textual evidence?

How would Muslims/Christians/Jews view my other descriptions of Allah or God, if I were to write about religion in terms of my perceptions, as an atheist?
100) moshedyan on January 1st, 2009 11.49 am Our Good Friend Moshedyan had extracted a portion(good job! Moshedyan) of what You wrote in Malaysiakini
well that is where my skills comes in
whether its IT related or rebuttals
now you all know why intel.com forum have to shut down
they the MIT gurus just goes by D book
not their brainwave….
thank you
all
may we all have a notsogreat 2009 ahead
grabbed/saved whatever pennies that dropped from the sky
even today
i am on call
will be going out shortly to do a simple adhoc job…

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

101) Zefly (aka Joshua Chiang) on January 1st, 2009 11.54 am 96) patriot on January 1st, 2009 9.17 am

“We are all acutely aware that religions are sensitive matters because history has never fail to show that religions is divisive and have lead to much confrontations and wars. ”

No doubt about that. What I was saying is, a certain flexibility has to be allowed. Insomuch as discourses should be on the merits of logical arguments, we have to agree that a person has more than his rational side. Most people believe they have a ’spiritual’ side as well. Consider one of the common angry comments we find here “God will punish so-and-so for his sins etc’ Would you think that is a ‘religious’ statetment? Or if I were to make a call for compromise. I might have quoted Jesus’s words about turning the other cheek, not because I am Christian, but because it is a very commonly understood term.

Yes, I do agree we need to draw a line. No one should be allowed to evangelize or engage in ‘my god is better than your god’ debate here. (I wrote that in my earlier post dunno if you saw that). No one should act in a way like he has the monopoly of absolute truth.

But say, if it’s hari raya, and someone posts a hari raya greeting quoting the Koran … what’s wrong with that? It is, after all, a very important day for muslims, and not just a secular holiday. Why should we muzzle someone sharing his wishes and joy in the way he feels most comfortable with, just because we don’t believe in his god? Religions are divisive only when we allow it to be. Only when we react too sensitively to stuff like these.

Religious tolerance, in my opinion, is not just tolerance between people of faiths, but also between people of faiths and people without religions. Insomuch as I feel strongly against shoving down one’s faiths upon people’s throats, tolerance also should extend to ‘aetheists’ and agnostics’ allowing people with religion to make the occasional reference to stories or characters in their faith. Otherwise it will become a tyranny of aetheism.

It is only partially true that I am speaking up for my occasional tendencies to quote various examples from the various religious scriptures. (i read alot of these kind of stuff) But I had been an aethist too, and for a long time, i was also piqued whenever people use references like this in a normal conversation. That is until I realized the intolerant one was actually me. You can’t stop a devout christian for eg, for giving thanks even outside the church.

I believe ultimately we are still seeking the same thing - freedom of expression done in a responsible way. We just differ on its boundaries.

cheers.
102) Zefly (aka Joshua Chiang) on January 1st, 2009 12.22 pm WKC

“I would like to express my disagreement with K Das’ opinion that Islam is a peaceful and beautiful religion. I get the impression that K Das must have read the Koran.

No religion, be it monotheistic or polytheistic, can lay claim to being a peaceful religion if it prescribes punishment for unbelievers, or believers of other faiths.

If I say God [Allah] is portrayed in the Bible as a genocidal maniac, would that be construed as blasphemy? Or should it be construed as mere textual evidence?

How would Muslims/Christians/Jews view my other descriptions of Allah or God, if I were to write about religion in terms of my perceptions, as an atheist?”

Tough question. Quite honestly, everyone will react differently. You can expect a certain level of very strong disagreements from some people. In my case, as long as you don’t rub it in my face too much, I’ll just take it as another perception that is probably good to mull over for a while instead of getting worked up.

But what you had written is, what i would consider, as something that is best left for other blogs and websites and not TOC.

Lastly, I know this is tough, but I hope some of you, who are wont to be worked up by WKC’s comments, to exercise some restraint. Not that I agree with his views, quite the opposite, but if you reply, it will ultimately be an exercise in futility, and we don’t wanna spoil anyone’s new year.