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China built Airliner...
- Thread starter Goh Meng Seng
- Start date
It is chicken and egg thing. People will buy if they can see that there is a track record (X million of miles without problems). But to get that track record so that people will buy, they need to sell some.
As it is the size that they are aiming for is probably idea for local and international markets. Same market that Dreamliner is going after. Their local aviation industry (expanding rapidly) can probably buy quite a few.
I think this is an excellent move. Sure there will be failures but that is how they learn. I do not think issues will be one of safety but one of efficiency. Most airline crashes, even the Russian made planes, are due to poor maintenance and training. Basic concept of getting a plane to fly is no big deal (making a jet engine is another ball of wax).
BTW USSR collapsed as a military power because they has a tiny economy and they could no longer afford to match US military expenditure. What do you think of Aeroflot vs China Southern, Air China in terms of destination served? Just compare Russian industrial base vs Chinese industrial base.
The commercial part of China's industrialization is unbelievable.
Just got back from Shanghai. Was talking to some Chinese IT guy. I asked him why not more Chinese IT subcontracting programming companies like Infosys? Aren't Chinese churning out enough software engineers?
According to him, most of these software engineers are being hired right into huge industrial base. In fact Infosys is in China trying to sell their services to these factories. In India there is not much of an industrial base so many of the talents leave the country in search for work. Recently, some of the subcontractors have moved back to india because of costs but still they are servicing the same old US MNCs. Never looked at it from that angle.
The Chinese are coming in from the other angle, find commercial use then go into the military. Coming from a commercial angle will mean less restriction. US companies will be fighting to supply the engines, avionics etc etc etc. So that is how they will learn.
Chinese airports have no issues with maintenance (they are servicing the hundreds of planes coming in daily).
Can they make a plane as efficient as Dreamliner etc etc is the problem. So only way is to make one and learn.
A strong commercial aviation manuf will lead to strong military capabilities. Anyway when you look at Boeing and even Airbus, they both have strong defense $$$ to help them make their commercial airlines.
I think this is a good idea.
As it is the size that they are aiming for is probably idea for local and international markets. Same market that Dreamliner is going after. Their local aviation industry (expanding rapidly) can probably buy quite a few.
I think this is an excellent move. Sure there will be failures but that is how they learn. I do not think issues will be one of safety but one of efficiency. Most airline crashes, even the Russian made planes, are due to poor maintenance and training. Basic concept of getting a plane to fly is no big deal (making a jet engine is another ball of wax).
BTW USSR collapsed as a military power because they has a tiny economy and they could no longer afford to match US military expenditure. What do you think of Aeroflot vs China Southern, Air China in terms of destination served? Just compare Russian industrial base vs Chinese industrial base.
The commercial part of China's industrialization is unbelievable.
Just got back from Shanghai. Was talking to some Chinese IT guy. I asked him why not more Chinese IT subcontracting programming companies like Infosys? Aren't Chinese churning out enough software engineers?
According to him, most of these software engineers are being hired right into huge industrial base. In fact Infosys is in China trying to sell their services to these factories. In India there is not much of an industrial base so many of the talents leave the country in search for work. Recently, some of the subcontractors have moved back to india because of costs but still they are servicing the same old US MNCs. Never looked at it from that angle.
The Chinese are coming in from the other angle, find commercial use then go into the military. Coming from a commercial angle will mean less restriction. US companies will be fighting to supply the engines, avionics etc etc etc. So that is how they will learn.
Chinese airports have no issues with maintenance (they are servicing the hundreds of planes coming in daily).
Can they make a plane as efficient as Dreamliner etc etc is the problem. So only way is to make one and learn.
A strong commercial aviation manuf will lead to strong military capabilities. Anyway when you look at Boeing and even Airbus, they both have strong defense $$$ to help them make their commercial airlines.
I think this is a good idea.
Ah Goh, answer me straight and honest that for the same sum of $, will you fly Boeing or China made plane? I always take 'China can' with a pinch of salt.
Unless the china-made airplanes are falling off the sky every other day, why not?
If china-made airplane/airline offers $200 round trip to California, vs US-made Boeing $700, it would make a regular guy like me to make a decision pretty easy..
if you have tons of money you could 'shout out loud' to despite those 'china-made', 'perceived low quality' products and services.
If I have $$$ I would drive a German Mercedes Benz anytime, Japanese cars would have to wait..
Tell the Chinese to convince their ppl first about food safety, quake-proof building, quality electronics etc then talk lah. Nabei between a Lenovo and a Fujitsu, I take the latter anytime even though that may be the last comp as Fujitsu is exiting this product soon.
Different budgets buys different products. Some take bus, some drive to work. A lot of us, are buying China products because it fits our budgets and meets our purpose of ownership.
Jap excels because the top honcho slash their stomachs if mistakes are made. In China, scapegoats lose their heads instead and the merry continue to go round. Quality Chinese goods ah, can if pigs have wings!
In ths US, many great companies are brought to bankrupcy by some CEO who made wrond judgement/mistake, and they do not kill themselves (just like chinese). I think it is stupid to kill themselves, even a mistake is made (intentionally or not).
Last time, so tycoons from Sg were stupid enuff to go China for treatment of the cancers to meet a quicker.
Hello friend, people go to USA/Boston (reputedly the BEST) for cancer/health treatment and died there too. (e.g. HK richest women and Taiwan richest man)
Better me to remain skeptical than foolishly stubborn.
Agreed!
Unless the china-made airplanes are falling off the sky every other day, why not?
If china-made airplane/airline offers $200 round trip to California, vs US-made Boeing $700, it would make a regular guy like me to make a decision pretty easy..
if you have tons of money you could 'shout out loud' to despite those 'china-made', 'perceived low quality' products and services.
If I have $$$ I would drive a German Mercedes Benz anytime, Japanese cars would have to wait..
Tell the Chinese to convince their ppl first about food safety, quake-proof building, quality electronics etc then talk lah. Nabei between a Lenovo and a Fujitsu, I take the latter anytime even though that may be the last comp as Fujitsu is exiting this product soon.
Different budgets buys different products. Some take bus, some drive to work. A lot of us, are buying China products because it fits our budgets and meets our purpose of ownership.
Jap excels because the top honcho slash their stomachs if mistakes are made. In China, scapegoats lose their heads instead and the merry continue to go round. Quality Chinese goods ah, can if pigs have wings!
In ths US, many great companies are brought to bankrupcy by some CEO who made wrond judgement/mistake, and they do not kill themselves (just like chinese). I think it is stupid to kill themselves, even a mistake is made (intentionally or not).
Last time, so tycoons from Sg were stupid enuff to go China for treatment of the cancers to meet a quicker.
Hello friend, people go to USA/Boston (reputedly the BEST) for cancer/health treatment and died there too. (e.g. HK richest women and Taiwan richest man)
Better me to remain skeptical than foolishly stubborn.
Agreed!
They can announce anything they want, but talk is cheap. It will take them tens of billions of dollars to get to production, if ever.
The world does not need another 70-150 seater, nor more regional jets. Bombardier and Embraer already dominate this segment and are very competitive. Boeing and Airbus have products in the 120-150 seat range too like the 737, and 310/320. China can develop a 70-150 passenger airliner but they may not have a market outside of China for it.
There is definitely a case for a large passenger plane. For high density segments like HKG-SHanghai-Beijing, u can for sure fill a large capacity plane.
I wouldn't be surprised if they could deliver the first batch by 2015.
Goh Meng Seng
U cannot compare the russian airliner with any chinese one. How the chinese aircraft procurement works is like this. The govt. controls how many foreign aircraft are imported into the country every year due to the need to control the outflow of hard currency. Each chinese airline submits their purchase requirements to the central govt. The govt. determines if they get their full quota or not. If needed, the govt. can require all airlines to purchase only the Chinese made airliner, hence assuring that it will have decent sales (in the hundreds anyway).
In the Russian case, no such ability by the central govt. to enforce this requirement to purchase Russian aricraft exists. The poor sales of the russian airliners such as the Tupolev 204, Illyushin IL-96, Sukhoi Superjet, in the international market stems not so much from their design or costs, but rather from the fact that Russian manufacturers are notoriously unreliable suppliers of spare parts for their own aircraft. A western airline cannot let its planes sit idle for long, waiting for a replacement spare. It does not help too that some Russian plane makers are on life support due to lack of new orders.
Dear PAP
The break even point for any new aircraft from either Airbus or Boeing is 500 units. :_)) Even assuming that the Chinese Government forces all their airlines to replace 767's and A330's with their Jumbo jet can it really hit the numbers needed to cover development costs ?
The specs for the new aircraft will soon tell, how it stands against either the A350 or the Dreamliner
Cheers
Locke
The break even point for any new aircraft from either Airbus or Boeing is 500 units. :_)) Even assuming that the Chinese Government forces all their airlines to replace 767's and A330's with their Jumbo jet can it really hit the numbers needed to cover development costs ?
The specs for the new aircraft will soon tell, how it stands against either the A350 or the Dreamliner
Cheers
Locke
Dear Locke,
Yes, the total number of airplanes owned by Chinese airlines could well be over 500.
Goh Meng Seng
Yes, the total number of airplanes owned by Chinese airlines could well be over 500.
Goh Meng Seng
U
UpYoz_olo
Guest
I don't know why you find it puzzling. I don't. It's what hokkien say "cee gong lan, long puay ch**"
If go golf driving range also can see it happening many times. Some idiots just thot they can already when out of umpteen hits, they got one right.
Conversely, even Tiger Woods can be humiliated with an 80+ score. The moral of my tale is over the long run, Japan will surpass China in every endeavour they take pride in. This may hurt many yellow skin stinkies who believe they are members of the People's Republic of China because of their skin color. I differ. Because I've worked with/for Japanese before. They have good work ethos and humble in general. They are inborn with desires to improve; necessary condition for success. If you're stubborn, so be it.
:oIo:
U
UpYoz_olo
Guest
You r one fucking prick. Ppl buy merc not for quality but for status you dork! LKY and his children use Lexus not because they can't afford the Mercs. Check your brain.
When LKY wants medical opinion and services, where did he went??? Where did LHL went to treat his lymphobic problems???
My uncle told me the Chinese dentists always try to knock ppl out with anaesthesia. He found the answer when once he awoke prematurely to find the tools working on his teeth brown with rust! He have never walked into a Chinese dentist shop since.
But pricks like you will value the extra 'iron' introduced in the procedure, and so be it!
:oIo:
I had the luck to have worked with the Japanese for a number of years. The chance for a frog in the well. Yes, what they are, is the reason why they are a world power within a short span of time coming out of the devastation of WWII.
But the [Japanese "Humble"] has no definitions in general dictionaries. Neither is it in theirs, I believe. You have to understand their culture to put an appropriate meaning to the word....
But the [Japanese "Humble"] has no definitions in general dictionaries. Neither is it in theirs, I believe. You have to understand their culture to put an appropriate meaning to the word....
Hahaha...
Older generations of Japanese, yes. They are a very hardworking lot but I really don't know about the newer generations.
I guess it is a common problem among more developed countries.. even HK and Singapore face such problems of complacency.
The Chinese at this stage, to what I see and heard, are a very hungry lot. Whether Japan can beat China in future, it is anyone's guess but at this very moment, they are catching up with great speed. Even in the financial centre, total market capitalization of both Shenzhen and Shanghai stock exchange is almost on par with Tokyo Stock exchange when I last check.
The Chinese too have high desire to improve and excel, though what seems to be lacking is ethics. But this may well change.
I visited Macau and despite the fact that it is supposedly a place that depends very much on tourism, their immigration system really sucks. Make comparison with the Chinese immigration at Shenzhen Luo Hu, you will see distinctive difference.
Most of the Chinese workers are very hardworking lot. Those who have been to Cambodia or Indonesia to visit their factories should realize that Chinese workers are really value for money even if they cost more. I guess among the developing countries, only Vietnam comes close to China's model.
This is said basically based on business sense and observations, nothing to do with race at all. I always caution my friends and immediate family members here in Singapore we should not be complacent at all. The Chinese are very competitive people and hungry for success... well, most of the time, quick success.
In terms of education, one cohort of students could well involve over a million students competing for the that few ten thousands of places in their top universities. This is why even their average students when come to Singapore, apart from English language, they are very good in many subjects. If you visit bookstores in China, you will see many people reading but here in Singapore and even HK, very few people are reading books nowadays. This is a distinctive sign of the hunger of knowledge and success for PRC.
If we are going to base on "academic merits" to allocate scholarship here in Singapore, we will be giving quite a high percentage to these PRC students. And this is exactly what is happening right now. Our students and people should not be complacent at all, we do not have the luxury to be complacent.
But if there are people who prefer to live in denial of the reality on the ground, so be it. Let history and time tell the full story.
Goh Meng Seng
Older generations of Japanese, yes. They are a very hardworking lot but I really don't know about the newer generations.
I guess it is a common problem among more developed countries.. even HK and Singapore face such problems of complacency.
The Chinese at this stage, to what I see and heard, are a very hungry lot. Whether Japan can beat China in future, it is anyone's guess but at this very moment, they are catching up with great speed. Even in the financial centre, total market capitalization of both Shenzhen and Shanghai stock exchange is almost on par with Tokyo Stock exchange when I last check.
The Chinese too have high desire to improve and excel, though what seems to be lacking is ethics. But this may well change.
I visited Macau and despite the fact that it is supposedly a place that depends very much on tourism, their immigration system really sucks. Make comparison with the Chinese immigration at Shenzhen Luo Hu, you will see distinctive difference.
Most of the Chinese workers are very hardworking lot. Those who have been to Cambodia or Indonesia to visit their factories should realize that Chinese workers are really value for money even if they cost more. I guess among the developing countries, only Vietnam comes close to China's model.
This is said basically based on business sense and observations, nothing to do with race at all. I always caution my friends and immediate family members here in Singapore we should not be complacent at all. The Chinese are very competitive people and hungry for success... well, most of the time, quick success.
In terms of education, one cohort of students could well involve over a million students competing for the that few ten thousands of places in their top universities. This is why even their average students when come to Singapore, apart from English language, they are very good in many subjects. If you visit bookstores in China, you will see many people reading but here in Singapore and even HK, very few people are reading books nowadays. This is a distinctive sign of the hunger of knowledge and success for PRC.
If we are going to base on "academic merits" to allocate scholarship here in Singapore, we will be giving quite a high percentage to these PRC students. And this is exactly what is happening right now. Our students and people should not be complacent at all, we do not have the luxury to be complacent.
But if there are people who prefer to live in denial of the reality on the ground, so be it. Let history and time tell the full story.
Goh Meng Seng
I don't know why you find it puzzling. I don't. It's what hokkien say "cee gong lan, long puay ch**"
If go golf driving range also can see it happening many times. Some idiots just thot they can already when out of umpteen hits, they got one right.
Conversely, even Tiger Woods can be humiliated with an 80+ score. The moral of my tale is over the long run, Japan will surpass China in every endeavour they take pride in. This may hurt many yellow skin stinkies who believe they are members of the People's Republic of China because of their skin color. I differ. Because I've worked with/for Japanese before. They have good work ethos and humble in general. They are inborn with desires to improve; necessary condition for success. If you're stubborn, so be it.
:oIo:
U
UpYoz_olo
Guest
Honestly, I haven't a clue what you're trying to say. BUT, the one I agree most is 'FuckSamLeong'
Well I UpYoz_olo too if you are directing it at me instead of the fucker !
U
UpYoz_olo
Guest
How new the generations you want to compare? Those currently running around in diapers? College ppl? 30-40 yrs buggers?
Let me recount you a true experience: Few years back, I had the misfortune/fortune, depending on how you see it, of being chuck to a pair of old Jap teens to form a 3-ball and played a round of golf.
At every hole, my ball is about 50m behind after T off. Sometimes even further. Instead of giving me the kind of cocky look (definitely if those buggers were stinkies), they would always bow to me apologetically, as if it's their fault I played.
I was shocked that they didn't felt I slowed them down. They should be in their mid-20's now. Are they typical or the exception I don't know. But I believe if many younger Japs have that sort of attitude, the future is there for their taking.
You can disagree. So be it. I hope your optimism with everything Chinese is vindicated. You win ok.
:oIo:
You r one fucking prick. Ppl buy merc not for quality but for status you dork! LKY and his children use Lexus not because they can't afford the Mercs. Check your brain.
How did you know people bought it for status and not quality, or both? If LKY wants to drive Lexus so be it. what is the big deal? They are many rich and famous all around the world are using MB everyday..
When LKY wants medical opinion and services, where did he went??? Where did LHL went to treat his lymphobic problems???
You have been following/tracking LKY's preference and buying choices.. want to be a mini-LKY?
My uncle told me the Chinese dentists always try to knock ppl out with anaesthesia. He found the answer when once he awoke prematurely to find the tools working on his teeth brown with rust! He have never walked into a Chinese dentist shop since.
It is sad that youir uncle did not heed your useful advice to bet against China. Also, he did not look around the tools they used and made clear of procedure they made, before handed the chinese dentist his 'mouth'.
But pricks like you will value the extra 'iron' introduced in the procedure, and so be it!
There are a lot of choices around, if you do not like it, by all means, pick all things made/done-in-USA/Japan to live a happy life yourself. No need to bad-mouth/belittle other people.
Like it or not, well-informed Americans are happily buying affordable china-made products everyday.
How did you know people bought it for status and not quality, or both? If LKY wants to drive Lexus so be it. what is the big deal? They are many rich and famous all around the world are using MB everyday..
When LKY wants medical opinion and services, where did he went??? Where did LHL went to treat his lymphobic problems???
You have been following/tracking LKY's preference and buying choices.. want to be a mini-LKY?
My uncle told me the Chinese dentists always try to knock ppl out with anaesthesia. He found the answer when once he awoke prematurely to find the tools working on his teeth brown with rust! He have never walked into a Chinese dentist shop since.
It is sad that youir uncle did not heed your useful advice to bet against China. Also, he did not look around the tools they used and made clear of procedure they made, before handed the chinese dentist his 'mouth'.
But pricks like you will value the extra 'iron' introduced in the procedure, and so be it!
There are a lot of choices around, if you do not like it, by all means, pick all things made/done-in-USA/Japan to live a happy life yourself. No need to bad-mouth/belittle other people.
Like it or not, well-informed Americans are happily buying affordable china-made products everyday.
