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China air force woos allies with J-10 fighter jet

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YANGCUN AIR BASE, China (Reuters) - Four Chinese J-10 fighter jets banked and sported in perfect formation in the blue skies near Tianjin on Tuesday, before executing a neat landing, their braking parachutes billowing out just in front of a viewing stand filled with military attaches.
A People's Liberation Army Air Force officer looks on next to a Jian-10 fighter jet at Yangcun Air Force base, during a media trip to the 24th Air Force Division, on the outskirts of Tianjin municipality April 13, 2010 (REUTERS/Petar Kujundzic)

Many of the 51 attaches, some from Africa and the Middle East, may be future customers for the Made-in-China fighter jet.

So far no other country's air force has the J-10, but China hopes the plane's manoeuverability and price can compete with the U.S. and others in sales to third countries, many of them allies through whom Beijing is courting global influence.

Ever since the early 1990s, China has been working to slim and upgrade its military into a modern fighting force. That means developing fighters for the People's Liberation Army Air Force, and also planes that others would want.

"Yes, we have been given the option of getting this aircraft, and we are studying this option," said Salman Ahsan Bokhari, the Beijing-based air attache from Pakistan, tipped as a potential bulk buyer of the J-10.

"Until this time, we haven't seen it physically flying... It's a good time for all the world's air force to know the PLA has a valuable and important aircraft flying in the skies."

For a graphic: http://graphics.thomsonreuters.com/RNGS/2010/APR/AIRFORCE.jpg

Many military analysts watch the Chinese air force for clues to how it would perform in an attack on Taiwan, the self-ruled island Beijing views as a breakaway province and that the United States is obligated to defend.

For China's allies, particularly in the developing world, the issue isn't so much the Chinese forces' performance as it is the hardware itself and the diplomatic strategy behind its purchase.

"We came to see the performance of this J-10 aircraft. I think it's quite impressive but we still have to see how it compares to others in its class," said Derek Mwendaofyo, the Beijing-based defence attache for Zambia, which has historical and mining investment ties to China.

DEFENSE AT HOME, SALES OVERSEAS

At the moment, the Chinese air force itself is still short of planes, with outside analysts noting Chinese pilots often have less flying time under their belts than Western forces.

The Yangcun base, on a flat plain about two hours drive from Beijing and near to Tianjin, has a ratio of 1.2 pilots to planes, said Yan Feng, commander of the 24th division based there.

"A lot of people look at hours in the air and quality of simulators and China still lags behind," said Matthew Durnin, a Beijing-based researcher with the World Security Institute.

"More importantly, their exercises are carefully scripted and controlled from the ground, which isn't very applicable to actual combat."

But for Pakistan, the geo-political balance between China, the United States, Japan and Taiwan in Northeast Asia is less important than that of South Asia, where it is balancing the Americans' desire for an ally against the Taliban in Afganistan with China's desire for better sea access to the energy-rich Middle East.

It is negotiating with the United States to buy 14 more F-16 fighter planes, Pakistan defence officials said in March after talks aimed at reversing tempestuous ties between the allies.

"In Pakistan we have Western aircraft, French aircraft and Chinese aircraft, so we will be able to see how we can position this in," Bokhari said, referring to possible purchases of the J-10. The Alabama-trained pilot said he wanted to try flying it.

"Price-wise, this is a point which is still under discussion, the main point."

For pilots like Yan Feng, the beauty of the J-10 lies in its manoeuverability, its stability, and its integrated avionics system.

Compared to a J-7 plane, which China has already exported, the J-10 "is like an adult to a child," Yan said.

"As a pilot and a division chief, I am very proud to have J-10 aircraft."

Yan estimated a J-10 cost the PLA Air Force, which he noted is also a consumer, about 190 million yuan ($27.84 million). That's pricey compared to the $15 million-plus price tag on a U.S. F-16 fighter, a favourite of world air forces.

"I believe the vendors know how to put it across to whoever the buyer is," said K Gambo, military attache from Nigeria, who said his country might consider buying from China.

"With good bargaining the price can come down."

(Additional reporting by Maxim Duncan and Ben Blanchard; Editing by Jerry Norton)

Copyright © 2010 Reuters:oIo:
 
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$28m for J-10 better buy Su-30 which is faster, longer range & more power.
Unless Pakistan get at the discount price less than $20m each.
 
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A People's Liberation Army Air Force officer looks on next to a Jian-10 fighter jet at Yangcun Air Force base, during a media trip to the 24th Air Force Division, on the outskirts of Tianjin municipality April 13, 2010 China boasts the world's third-largest air force, with about 400,000 personnel and some 2,000 combat aircraft. The fighter jets are also known as the Chengdu J-10.​
 
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A pilot sits in the cockpit of a Jian-10 fighter jet at Yangcun Air Force base on the outskirts of Tianjin municipality April 13, 2010 during a media trip to the 24th Air Force Division of the People's Liberation Army (PLA).

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A Chinese People's Liberation Army Airforce's "Bayi Aerobatic Unit" J-10 fighter jet performs during an aerial demonstration at a base of the PLA Airforce's 24th Division in Yangcun, Tianjin, China, Tuesday, April 13, 2010. The media, along with about 51 military attaches from embassies in Beijing, including the United States, Britain and Israel, witnessed a 15-minute demonstration by four pilots from the 24th Air Division in China's domestically developed J-10 fighters.

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A Chinese J-10 fighter jet flys on display over the Yangcun Air Force base of the People's Liberation Army Air Force in Tianjin, home of the 24th Fighter Division, southeast of Beijing on April 13, 2010. The base is home to the August 1st (Bayi) Aerobatic Team of the PLAAF, named after the founding of the PLA on August 1, 1927. The Aerobatics team upgraded their jets to the J-10 multirole fighter in May 2009 and military attaches from various countries as well as foreign journalists were invited to the base for the airshow.​
 
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Chinese J-10 fighter jets fly on display over the Yangcun Air Force base of the People's Liberation Army Air Force in Tianjin, home of the 24th Fighter Division, southeast of Beijing on April 13, 2010.​
 
Can any expert comment if this is the chiong version of the Russian fighter jet that they revised engineered and then made themselves?
 
$28m for J-10 better buy Su-30 which is faster, longer range & more power.
Unless Pakistan get at the discount price less than $20m each.

Sukhoi-30s require more maintenance and spare parts replacement than their Western/American counterparts which India, Indonesia and our Mat neighbours north found out the hard way after they bought those lemons.

Chinese military hardware has always been a favourite for 3rd world countries, cheap hardware, cheap spares and not to forget very expendable. :D
 
Can any expert comment if this is the chiong version of the Russian fighter jet that they revised engineered and then made themselves?

it resembles the israeli lavi more than any russian fighter.
 
Ha ha .. poking out refuel nozzel and only one engine if mulfunction have to eject. Unlike twin engine still can flyback with one engine.
 
Can any expert comment if this is the chiong version of the Russian fighter jet that they revised engineered and then made themselves?

As with most types of chinese fighters, this is a piece of crap. As one poster mentioned, it resembled the Lavi, which the IDF developed for its own airforce. Essentially, it was build with Israeli help in the beginning until the US told the Jews to cut that shit out. They have been trying to build this thing since the early 1990s, with the first flight in 1997. Today, they still have none sold any internationally, and their own air force has just started taking delivery of it. The Lavi program was the IDF's attempt to blend a F-16 type aricraft with their experience with canard surfaces on the Kfir C2 program. The Chinese are at least 15 years behind the west in engine technology, so that in my opinion is the weak point for this J-10. The engines are copies of the Lyulka Saturn engines from their own SU-25. These russian engines themselves are not nearly as good as the modern western engines. Also, there were crashes during the flight test phase. They can probably get some 3rd world african republic to buy it, but I doubt it. The Pakis might buy it, but now that they have excess to all the used F-16s they can buy, they should go that way.
 
Used F16 means expensive maintainence. Chinese probably selling along lines of cheap to buy and maintain. For many 3rd world nations, the ability to own 4 to 5 of these jets is one up over the neighbor. Sri lanka had heck of a time countering the Tamil Tiger airplanes. I think 1 J10 would probably make mince meat of what Tamil Tiger had.

On top of that Chinese throw in financing or barter (palm oil, timber/iron ore for jets), cheap training and you have a winning solution.

And I would not be surprised if the J10 is superior to 1st gen F16 in terms of overall performance (just because of advances in materials and technology). You are correct about the Russian engines. Chinese are having heck of a time trying to build their own engine. But Chinese are not stupid. They now have trained engineers, the $$$, the industrial base so little to prevent them from making whatever they want.

If you look at technology, ask yourself, what does it take to design or improve upon any particular technology. You need:

1) $$$$ (USSR could not match US on this but Chinese have lots of it)
2) Techincal knowhow. This is an open world where universities and internet means lots of sharing of info. Also talent goes to country that can pay the most. and there is a lot of cross usage of technology between civilian and military. So I think the Chinese with their 1.4B people will easily find many brilliant MIT engineers.
3) Access to raw materials
4) Industrial base (Chinese have heck of a strong base. Read that USSR had big problems with making reliable tires for the armour carriers because their did not have a strong auto mfg)
5) Political will.

This J10 might be junk as you say but never forget that it only takes 1 generation to build up a bunch of brilliant engineers.

Here is interesting NY Times article about China hoping to build high speed rail for California. They are licensing their engine technology to GE!!! And can offer financing!! Would not be surprised if their technology is good because since they are building their high speed from scratch vs France or Japan, they can improve upon what the Japs and French did a generation ago. Also they have the incidents per million miles travelled to back up reliability record. They are probbaly cheap because whatever factory that is supply the trains in China probbaly have the economy of scale that Jap or France cannot beat. After all China is in the middle of the largest upgrading of its rail infra.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/08/business/global/08rail.html
 
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okay la, its not very impressive because the plane is not design for long distant flight

look at the spec of f-16 here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-16

look at the spec of j-10 here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chengdu_J-10

basically its a little bit of improvement in technology and higher fighting capabilities, j-10 is lighter and the speeed is around the same, not sure the maxium distant that it can travel. most likely 3th world country would be interested it in as it is cheaper because its from china, quality not sure because its from china so no surprise if its chong.

but what that catch my attention is how it compares itself with america, because they have the quantity and how it puts taiwan into the picture. i think of this as not only showing their military but more of a 'taiwan u better don prey prey with us'

but i would say china lags behind US and western countries a lot, because more advance nation is talking about stealth bombers no much of fighters jet, because they would just come silently and bomb everything you hand and run off and this is what modern warefare is about.
 
is there any nuclear powered fighter plane available that can double as mini-nuke in suicide mission?
 
but i would say china lags behind US and western countries a lot, because more advance nation is talking about stealth bombers no much of fighters jet, because they would just come silently and bomb everything you hand and run off and this is what modern warefare is about.

i remember seeing a youtube clip about F22 and F35, one of the engineer confidently said that US is ahead of the others at least by 40 years
 
Used F16 means expensive maintainence. Chinese probably selling along lines of cheap to buy and maintain. For many 3rd world nations, the ability to own 4 to 5 of these jets is one up over the neighbor. Sri lanka had heck of a time countering the Tamil Tiger airplanes. I think 1 J10 would probably make mince meat of what Tamil Tiger had.

I don't know where u get this info from? The F-16 has been build in the thousands, with many smaller poorer air forces using them. The spare parts are plentiful due to the number of planes out there, as well, in terms of reliability, they are better than any russian or chinese planes. Its no good to have a cheap plane and it sits on the tarmac because its waiting for parts or broken. There are many companies offering MLU programs for the F-16 and many countries selling F-16 MLUs. I would say a F-16 Block 20 plus with MLU is probably just as good as this piece of shit. And $5 million to $10 million cheaper.

On top of that Chinese throw in financing or barter (palm oil, timber/iron ore for jets), cheap training and you have a winning solution.

And I would not be surprised if the J10 is superior to 1st gen F16 in terms of overall performance (just because of advances in materials and technology). You are correct about the Russian engines. Chinese are having heck of a time trying to build their own engine. But Chinese are not stupid. They now have trained engineers, the $$$, the industrial base so little to prevent them from making whatever they want.

They have trained engineers good for building factories and consumer products. Their defence products are still years behind everyone else.

If you look at technology, ask yourself, what does it take to design or improve upon any particular technology. You need:

1) $$$$ (USSR could not match US on this but Chinese have lots of it)
Lots of money does not translate to anythign at all. Chinese corruption will take care of alot of that money.
2) Techincal knowhow. This is an open world where universities and internet means lots of sharing of info. Also talent goes to country that can pay the most. and there is a lot of cross usage of technology between civilian and military. So I think the Chinese with their 1.4B people will easily find many brilliant MIT engineers.
If this is so easy, than the Russians should have the best planes in the world. Their engineers are not bad, math and science is high quality there. The Indians should hav ethe best fighter too, sincethey also have a large human base, with many engineers. Instead, their fighter program is a joke. Conversely, by your logic, the Swedes have no business designing a 5th gen fighter like the Gripen.
3) Access to raw materials

They have access but that is because they are on friendly terms with the US. They don;t have titanium and other exotic metals that u need for jet engines in their own country. They have to buy that. They can be embargoed easily if things don't work out. In any case, the access to material is not as important as having the know how to work the medal into the alloys that u need.
4) Industrial base (Chinese have heck of a strong base. Read that USSR had big problems with making reliable tires for the armour carriers because their did not have a strong auto mfg)

Yes, the are great inmaking TVs
5) Political will.

Everyone in the world has the political will to build the best aircraft.

This J10 might be junk as you say but never forget that it only takes 1 generation to build up a bunch of brilliant engineers.

Here is interesting NY Times article about China hoping to build high speed rail for California. They are licensing their engine technology to GE!!! And can offer financing!! Would not be surprised if their technology is good because since they are building their high speed from scratch vs France or Japan, they can improve upon what the Japs and French did a generation ago. Also they have the incidents per million miles travelled to back up reliability record. They are probbaly cheap because whatever factory that is supply the trains in China probbaly have the economy of scale that Jap or France cannot beat. After all China is in the middle of the largest upgrading of its rail infra.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/08/business/global/08rail.html

Please lah, high speed rail engine technology has got nothing to do with modern jet engines. That technology is so different in terms of sophistication. Its like saying the best maker of scooter engines inthe world can build engines for Ferrari all of a sudden. Your comparison is ludicrous. Just because the chinese can build high speed railways does not mean it will translate to jet engines. Bombardier is still the standard for rail.
 
i remember seeing a youtube clip about F22 and F35, one of the engineer confidently said that US is ahead of the others at least by 40 years

I saw a documentary where 1 F22 Versus 4 F-15s, and all the F-15 lost. Either the F22 or the F535 will make mincemeat out of this J-10.
 
I saw a documentary where 1 F22 Versus 4 F-15s, and all the F-15 lost. Either the F22 or the F535 will make mincemeat out of this J-10.

mainly because of the beyond vision radar and missile. But all these were merely in stimulation.
 
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