Brilliant! To Counter Beijing's Oppression on Hong Kong, USA will recognize Tibet As Independent Nation

[Nice-Gook]

His logic is not flawed. Aljunied can choose to do so if it wants. Would it be stupid to do so? Yes. But why can't it?

yes you can disown a father just as a father can disown a son. you may not want to, but surely some families have walked out and never spoken to other families again. I sense some possessiveness going on here...

Look Singapore was part of British Empire. There were very few Chinese here in the beginning. Going by your own logic regarding Tibet, the UK should own Singapore forever. Does that mean that it should only belong to Malays or England forever? Like that LKY was the most disobedient traitor of all. Turned against the British who educated him. We should all die for supporting him?

wow ,such pertinent and a wisdom too ...great man ,simply great

i like the part about disowning bit ,yes,we are now woken up to the reality that nothing is binding forever, not even blood relationship let alone marriages ...and yet ,posters are talking about historical values and conquest ...forgetting the value of history itself depends on which end of the stick, you currently are or facing

that is why I am a great proponent of freedom ,if an individual can be unhappy and want separation and that is made legal such as divorces and disowning...here we have a whole nation and ethnicity crying for help and yet we argue against it !!!

 

[eatshitndie]

why illegetimate entity? they also killed more than legitimate entities too... CCP #1 in stealing Chinese people's money and their lives.

ccp is the ultimate illegitimate entity killing chinese more than “other” illegitimate entities such as the mongols, manchus, rebels, bandits, etc.

 

[Nice-Gook]

Aljunied cannot leave Singapore because it is part of Singapore. If it chooses to, SG Govt has the right to impose its law of rule, imprison the subversive elements, impose martial law on Aljunied, and whatever it takes to keep it under the country including military action. This is the same for Tibet and China. Malaya had a mutual separation agreement with the British. The British willingly cede control of the colony to the local people because it realised it cost them more than the benefit. Beijing had an agreement to keep Tibet as an autonomous region while being under the umbrella of the greater China. It was Dalai Lama who wanted to keep power to himself. So Singapore/Britain relationship is not the same as Tibet/China.
Therefore if China willingly let Tibet goes independent, or Istana willingly let Aljunied go independent.... of course they can.

sorry pal ,you seems to be repeatedly putting your own foot into your own mouth by your unreasonable arguments

i could take you on each and every untenable points you rlao raised ,but let's talk about aljunied

your presumption is because aljunied falls under the armpit of a political SG ,therefore there cannot be a separation but don't ignore singapore itself is exactly like aljunied itself, but slightly larger

SG was never a nation by itself historically ,what more bought as a piece of land illegally from a malay...then when the British gave independence it was tied to malusia ,or no deal

but LKY broke all that ..why ? because the chinese majority in sinkie would not accept a malay rule ...the joke is who are these sinkie chinese in the first place ,chinks and Kelings were migrants and almost all were born in China and India too ,of that time..in nutshell foreigners who took residence in sinkie was seeking freedom from malays who are the owners of the land !!!

but yet ,Tibetans who are the born and bred people of their own ethnicities, culture and religion for centuries ...just because Mao marched his troops into their land have to live entrapped, enslaved with ethnic cleansing ?

 

[Sideswipe]

Tibetans are not all that peace-loving and non-violent people.

seem that they started the war in Qinghai 1930s.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Tibetan_War

 

[LordElrond]

sorry pal ,you seems to be repeatedly putting your own foot into your own mouth by your unreasonable arguments

i could take you on each and every untenable points you rlao raised ,but let's talk about aljunied

your presumption is because aljunied falls under the armpit of a political SG ,therefore there cannot be a separation but don't ignore singapore itself is exactly like aljunied itself, but slightly larger

SG was never a nation by itself historically ,what more bought as a piece of land illegally from a malay...then when the British gave independence it was tied to malusia ,or no deal

but LKY broke all that ..why ? because the chinese majority in sinkie would not accept a malay rule ...the joke is who are these sinkie chinese in the first place ,chinks and Kelings were migrants and almost all were born in China and India too ,of that time..in nutshell foreigners who took residence in sinkie was seeking freedom from malays who are the owners of the land !!!

but yet ,Tibetans who are the born and bred people of their own ethnicities, culture and religion for centuries ...just because Mao marched his troops into their land have to live entrapped, enslaved with ethnic cleansing ?

I have stated many times, the existence of Singapore, Malaysia were agreed by all parties involved. So if China agrees to let Tibet be independent so be it. As for “Mao marched his troops into Tibet to enslave Tibetans” it is not just your opinion or my opinion that matters because the world has debated that for decades. I subscribe to the view that Tibet has been part of China for almost a thousand years since the Yuan Dynasty. You are entitled to your view.
But 1 important point to remember is, a unique ethnicity or culture does not entitle one to be an independent nation. China as a whole comprises more than 50 unique ethnicity but people come together as one nation, so no exception for Tibet.

 

[JohnTan]

because in southern and eastern russia many russkies have mongol dna after subotai conquered the steppes and massacred rus men.

Subotai was also russian.

 

[JohnTan]

But 1 important point to remember is, a unique ethnicity or culture does not entitle one to be an independent nation.

Kashmir wants to break away from india solely because the kashimiris are majority moslem.

South thailand wants to break away from Thailand because most of the inhabitants currently are moslem.

It's the same in certain parts of mindanao, Israel, Xinjiang, Rakhine.

The moslems believe that if they form the majority in the district, the district should breakaway and form their own country or join the neighbouring islamic neighbour.

 

[Nice-Gook]

I have stated many times, the existence of Singapore, Malaysia were agreed by all parties involved. So if China agrees to let Tibet be independent so be it. As for “Mao marched his troops into Tibet to enslave Tibetans” it is not just your opinion or my opinion that matters because the world has debated that for decades. I subscribe to the view that Tibet has been part of China for almost a thousand years since the Yuan Dynasty. You are entitled to your view.
But 1 important point to remember is, a unique ethnicity or culture does not entitle one to be an independent nation. China as a whole comprises more than 50 unique ethnicity but people come together as one nation, so no exception for Tibet.

why this penchant for repeatedly putting your own foot in your mouth ,pal ? why,Oh,why ? ...agreement can also be disagreed...in fact ,most litigation in our courts are exactly that ...so,if your argument stands on an agreement ,can Sinkie be owned by say a malusia or indonesia if suddenly one of them disagree ? ...hey ,technically sinkie belonged to Indonesia and indonesia had never been in any sort of agreement with sinkie nor privy to it ...there goes your locus standing ,Poof!

actually ,you also had stepped into a lot of legality minefield..without some understanding of the law of contract and it's remenification , I would be hard pressed to argue with you in finer points

but simply put ,any agreement reached out of its jurisdiction is null and void ..meaning also you cannot sign an agreement to rob a bank and share the loot and take your partner in crime to court if he doesn't..Comprende

 

[Tony Tan]

USA is Too WEAK BANKRUPTED DYING + EXTREMELY DESPERATE.

NO FRIEND BUT TOO MANY ENEMIES. Betrayal and Betrayed and all ex-allies gave up on USA.

Even Very Weak Enemies are now EXTREMELY CONFIDENT to HANDLE USA.

Even loser DALAI LAMA gave up on USA and is now BEGGING XI to be allowed back into Tibet to Die, or else his 15th REINCARNATION will be RUINED cannot be re-borned as a new little living Budha. Hence he will DIE FOR REAL AND PERISHED ETERNALLY!

 

[kkbutterfly]

like that very scary leh. Next time the americunt say sinkapoor is part of malaysia , how ?
Worst still , this set a precedent for a variety of petitions ,demands and declarations that every country in the world can made.

US can say anything they want.why u want to bother.trump can say you are born out of bangali cunt.will you bother with what he say?

 

[nightsafari]

that is why I am a great proponent of freedom ,if an individual can be unhappy and want separation and that is made legal such as divorces and disowning...here we have a whole nation and ethnicity crying for help and yet we argue against it !!!

 

[nightsafari]

Aljunied cannot leave Singapore because it is part of Singapore. If it chooses to, SG Govt has the right to impose its law of rule, imprison the subversive elements, impose martial law on Aljunied, and whatever it takes to keep it under the country including military action.

that's exactly right. so if they wish to leave, they can do so, but as you yourself say, sg government can bring the hammer down on them. As I said, it would not make sense to do so, but they CAN do it if they want. And in response, SG government CAN bring the hammer down.

This is the same for Tibet and China.

as per above, Tibet can make a move to leave and China can put the hammer down or not.

Malaya had a mutual separation agreement with the British. The British willingly cede control of the colony to the local people because it realised it cost them more than the benefit. Beijing had an agreement to keep Tibet as an autonomous region while being under the umbrella of the greater China. It was Dalai Lama who wanted to keep power to himself. So Singapore/Britain relationship is not the same as Tibet/China.
Therefore if China willingly let Tibet goes independent, or Istana willingly let Aljunied go independent.... of course they can.

so we agree! whether the benefits outweight the costs is a calculation that they all go through.

but what's the difference between your point of view and mine? Please allow me to parse your point of view in the following : If it's an agreement, it's binding. The people's desire to be free of rule is unimportant or irrelevant. Have I got your stance correct?

 

[nightsafari]

but yet ,Tibetans who are the born and bred people of their own ethnicities, culture and religion for centuries ...just because Mao marched his troops into their land have to live entrapped, enslaved with ethnic cleansing ?

 

[LordElrond]

that's exactly right. so if they wish to leave, they can do so, but as you yourself say, sg government can bring the hammer down on them. As I said, it would not make sense to do so, but they CAN do it if they want. And in response, SG government CAN bring the hammer down.


as per above, Tibet can make a move to leave and China can put the hammer down or not.


so we agree! whether the benefits outweight the costs is a calculation that they all go through.

but what's the difference between your point of view and mine? Please allow me to parse your point of view in the following : If it's an agreement, it's binding. The people's desire to be free of rule is unimportant or irrelevant. Have I got your stance correct?

I don’t have major disagreement with you as you are a very reasonable guy. And I’m also not all out to defend China or Xi or whoever. Contrary to how I portray myself, I don’t hate the US. We all grew up listening to angmoh music and watched angmoh movies. For me, and I believe you would agree as well, double standard is UNACCEPTABLE. And while everyone is talking about CCP propaganda and skewed reporting, my view is angmoh is being double standard and hypocritical in this. And I maintain my view the bombing of Iraq and Afghanistan is the greatest atrocities mankind has ever committed in recent history. Now back to your question: If it is an agreement it is binding - yes I agree, generally. Of course history has it that there could have been multiple agreements, amendments, supplementary agreements, agreements made under duress, etc which complicated the matter. Does people’s will matter? It does... but one has to draw the line between people’s will vs the politician’s desire for power at the expense of people. So yes we are in agreement on the principle.

 

[Nice-Gook]

I don’t have major disagreement with you as you are a very reasonable guy. And I’m also not all out to defend China or Xi or whoever. Contrary to how I portray myself, I don’t hate the US. We all grew up listening to angmoh music and watched angmoh movies. For me, and I believe you would agree as well, double standard is UNACCEPTABLE. And while everyone is talking about CCP propaganda and skewed reporting, my view is angmoh is being double standard and hypocritical in this. And I maintain my view the bombing of Iraq and Afghanistan is the greatest atrocities mankind has ever committed in recent history. Now back to your question: If it is an agreement it is binding - yes I agree, generally. Of course history has it that there could have been multiple agreements, amendments, supplementary agreements, agreements made under duress, etc which complicated the matter. Does people’s will matter? It does... but one has to draw the line between people’s will vs the politician’s desire for power at the expense of people. So yes we are in agreement on the principle.

well argued ,I must say..good for you

 

[sleaguepunter]

https://m.malaysiakini.com/letters/311506

oh ,yes ! lot of larger countries with earlier civilization do consider other nations and other ethnicities theirs,too....why a sun yet Sen, let's look at India ...ask any Indian diplomat ,what is greater India ...they will show you a map of India stretching from Afganistan right up to Vietnam...and India does maintain such a map ,the very reason china is very terse in dealing with India, even with their facade of non violence bullshit ...all it takes is a racist fascist asshole like Modi with some money than you will see Indian fireworks right next door ,no! right into your home

ok,let's examine the Indian claim ,are they wrong ?certainly not ,each and every SEA country carry the glory of Indianistaion...in fact ,their countries are named in accordance with Indian norms,their culture is quite Indian, their rajahs and kings still follows Indian protocol and so is their language and script...their very personal names such as in Indonesian ,Thai, Khamer, Burmese are quite Indian, the only exception is Vietnam ..why even the very word singapore is Indian and the Singapore stone found by Raffles marking it as a territory is written in an Indian language

therefore pal ,if you justify China's tyranny over other ethnicities ...one day Indians and india will do exactly the same too ...it's like what Martin Niemoller said ,
They came first for the Communists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me, and by that time no one was left to speak up.

So you behsong Chinese or CCP or both?
誰拳頭大,誰就是老大。to me, lands or sea last time belong to who not really important. Currently whoever want will have to fight for it. Claims all are excuses. there are nothing righteous in wars, all parties have interests to aim for. If the Tibetans or be it the hongkies want independence, they will have to fight for it and whichever nations want to support other independence, then better support by declaring war and impose embargo. If not then it just kpkb for shiok only.
CCP politburo made a mistake in choosing xi dada as leader. He didn’t follow the political reforms imposed by deng xiaoping on the CCP leadership selection process. Hu Jintao era was more liberal than currently. Scold CCP over internet then can still be invited to host CCTV program. Now the bugger when invited to US to give speech, he need to remind audiences in a roundabout way that he still need to go home eventually so certain questions he cannot answer.

 

[Nice-Gook]

So you behsong Chinese or CCP or both?
誰拳頭大,誰就是老大。to me, lands or sea last time belong to who not really important. Currently whoever want will have to fight for it. Claims all are excuses. there are nothing righteous in wars, all parties have interests to aim for. If the Tibetans or be it the hongkies want independence, they will have to fight for it and whichever nations want to support other independence, then better support by declaring war and impose embargo. If not then it just kpkb for shiok only.
CCP politburo made a mistake in choosing xi dada as leader. He didn’t follow the political reforms imposed by deng xiaoping on the CCP leadership selection process. Hu Jintao era was more liberal than currently. Scold CCP over internet then can still be invited to host CCTV program. Now the bugger when invited to US to give speech, he need to remind audiences in a roundabout way that he still need to go home eventually so certain questions he cannot answer.

let me put it succiently

long ago ,a Christian family ,mother daughter and 14 something old boy ..stopped me on my walk and the boy grilled me ,do you know the meaning of life ?

I was not amused ,here a 14 yr old asking me who would be more likely to be his grandpa,not only in age but had seen and been in places and situation his whole generation may not be ...just because of 1 holy book???...I turned to his mum and gave my piece of my mind ...there is indeed must be a relevance as to what you ask and whom you ask

hence ,the same goes to you pal ,....I need no camp to be ,any camp for that matter ...the gist in this discussion is NOT having to shed blood for what they want ...the very gist is do they deserve the injustices they have been delivered and living with now ? as simple as that

 

[sleaguepunter]

let me put it succiently

long ago ,a Christian family ,mother daughter and 14 something old boy ..stopped me on my walk and the boy grilled me ,do you know the meaning of life ?

I was not amused ,here a 14 yr old asking me who would be more likely to be his grandpa,not only in age but had seen and been in places and situation his whole generation may not be ...just because of 1 holy book???...I turned to his mum and gave my piece of my mind ...there is indeed must be a relevance as to what you ask and whom you ask

hence ,the same goes to you pal ,....I need no camp to be ,any camp for that matter ...the gist in this discussion is NOT having to shed blood for what they want ...the very gist is do they deserve the injustices they have been delivered and living with now ? as simple as that

The problem is whether they deserve what they are getting now or not will not make a different in a real world. Of course they deserve a referendum to make a choice but in the real world it not going to happen.
Although I chinese but I don’t really give a fark about the China as I already 4th generation here. As for here whose land belong to who in the past I also don’t care. But I will put on my camo number 4 and squeeze into the 25mm gunner seat of a Bionix when any nation or nations invade Singapore.

 

[Nice-Gook]

The problem is whether they deserve what they are getting now or not will not make a different in a real world. Of course they deserve a referendum to make a choice but in the real world it not going to happen.
Although I chinese but I don’t really give a fark about the China as I already 4th generation here. As for here whose land belong to who in the past I also don’t care. But I will put on my camo number 4 and squeeze into the 25mm gunner seat of a Bionix when any nation or nations invade Singapore.

that's why I quoted the story of a 14 year old questioning an elderly on knowledge of life or real world

how much do you know of the real world ?

my position is the more I know the less i become ..like a boy picking pebbles in front of vast ocean, unable to fathom its depth nor unable to fathom him very self

i would stop preaching, if I were you

 

[nightsafari]

I don’t have major disagreement with you as you are a very reasonable guy. And I’m also not all out to defend China or Xi or whoever. Contrary to how I portray myself, I don’t hate the US. We all grew up listening to angmoh music and watched angmoh movies. For me, and I believe you would agree as well, double standard is UNACCEPTABLE. And while everyone is talking about CCP propaganda and skewed reporting, my view is angmoh is being double standard and hypocritical in this. And I maintain my view the bombing of Iraq and Afghanistan is the greatest atrocities mankind has ever committed in recent history.

agreed or not, I am happy to discuss and clarify. At the end of the day, even if I am wrong, I at least learn another's point of view which is fine by me. Not everyone likes to eat the same food, why should we all have to have the same opinion?

don't get me started on the Iraq and Afghanistan episodes. I literally stopped talking to people to this day because they blindly supported those godforsaken invasions.

When those invasions happened, I was one of those who was vocally opposed. I was deeply shocked that no one I knew supported my point of view. Almost to the last man everyone I knew in sinkieland supported the moves. The only people who were in my camp were those "no blood for oil" protestors in the US. What got me even more upset was watching Tony Blair strongly supporting President Cheney and his puppet Bush because of "evidence" which to this day has not seen the light of day. I'm still trying to understand how people can willingly follow others without solid reason and without evidence.

Now back to your question: If it is an agreement it is binding - yes I agree, generally. Of course history has it that there could have been multiple agreements, amendments, supplementary agreements, agreements made under duress, etc which complicated the matter. Does people’s will matter? It does... but one has to draw the line between people’s will vs the politician’s desire for power at the expense of people. So yes we are in agreement on the principle.

Ok. Maybe this is where you and I miss each other. I think it's where we draw the line. When Cheney and company was looking for power at the expense of ME and American lives I was not in support. Similarly, I am not in support of Xi and his cronies enriching themselves at the expense of the Chinese lower classes. I also do not support forcing people to be under a regime that they don't wish to be under. To use a familiar analogy. If a son no longer wishes to be part of the family, is any and all force justifiable? I think not. Better to let the guy go.

But that's my opinion. You and may have an entirely different one.

I do not support the use of force, fear, coercion and manipulation to continue a relationship. The relationship is either all willing parties or to me it's a farce of a relationship. As an example, if China has to invade Taiwan and subjugate most of it's citizens to "be united", I find that perverse. Again to use an analogy, if a wife wants to leave a husband for whatever reason do you incarcerate her and rape her until she totally belongs to you? Or if you prefer, if a son wishes to leave the family, do you lock them up and not allow anyone to talk to them and beat them until they rejoin you?

Can't support it.