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Beyond the Smokescreen II

SgParent

Alfrescian
Loyal
Most likely, PAP side thought they found a big lobang when they found out WP's contractor actually attempted to double charge or extract extra charges from the hawkers. ..........

You've forgot or purposely left out the part where lacket NgKK asked for the quotation in the 1st place..... dun tell me ATL for reason unknown decided to send the quotation to lackey NgKK, for what? So that itself and AHPETC could get into these sort of bickering?

I'd expect you to be at least sharp enough, clear-minded enough, professional enough to ask why lackey NgKK asked for the quotation in the 1st place.

I'm wrong. Dead wrong.
 

Goh Meng Seng

Alfrescian (InfP) [Comp]
Generous Asset
For those things which is "your words against mine", these are just smoke bombs.

Alex Au is right, the contractor ATL is very quiet and this is already very telling.

No matter under what circumstances, ATL should not be making quotation to the hawkers for job already paid for by the TC. Period. That's plain dishonesty and it doesn't matter whether the hawkers ask for the quotes or not.

Goh Meng Seng


You've forgot or purposely left out the part where lacket NgKK asked for the quotation in the 1st place..... dun tell me ATL for reason unknown decided to send the quotation to lackey NgKK, for what? So that itself and AHPETC could get into these sort of bickering?

I'd expect you to be at least sharp enough, clear-minded enough, professional enough to ask why lackey NgKK asked for the quotation in the 1st place.

I'm wrong. Dead wrong.
 

SgParent

Alfrescian
Loyal
For those things which is "your words against mine", these are just smoke bombs.

Alex Au is right, the contractor ATL is very quiet and this is already very telling.

Ahh yes, and lackey NgKK keeping quiet is not telling..........


No matter under what circumstances, ATL should not be making quotation to the hawkers for job already paid for by the TC. Period. That's plain dishonesty and it doesn't matter whether the hawkers ask for the quotes or not.

Ok so that is AHPETC's fault also?
 

SgParent

Alfrescian
Loyal
I have already told you, if AHPeTC closed both eyes to its contractor's wrong doing, yes, it is at fault.

What fault are we talking about here?

Going behind AHPETC's back to give quotation directly to lackey NgKK? Or trying to double charge for the cleaning job?
 

tanwahp

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
No matter under what circumstances, ATL should not be making quotation to the hawkers for job already paid for by the TC.

If the job was already paid by the TC, the issue would not have started. When NEA email that the hawkers will be paying for the scaffolding, TC will tell NEA they paid for it or seek reimbursement from hawkers and ATL will not get involved since they collected money. I remember that was not what you believed either. You asked why TC expected hawkers to pay for the scaffolding. If they expected hawkers to pay for the scaffolding, they wouldn't have paid.
 

3_M

Alfrescian
Loyal
Yes, it is called "Scaffolding" in the NEA document here. Thus, we have to piece these information together.

I can't believe you are so foolish to believe this as a standard classification from NEA. Why should u think a document with no letterhead, no date and no document number as "official"? It was obviously created in respond to this Blk 538 saga. Classifying the metal structure as "scaffolding" was likely an afterthought on the part of NEA. Go and google search the term "scaffolding", nowhere in the world did anyone classify those metal structure for outdoor tent as 'scaffolding'.
https://www.google.com.sg/search?q=...PSrQe5wIGYDQ&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1252&bih=598
 
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3_M

Alfrescian
Loyal
Nope. That's lame exc1*1use. ATL is free to quote other people BUT not the clients of AHTC by double charging them for service already paid! This is basic business ethic. For example, you buy aircon from some shop, this shop ge`1-t its contractor to deliver and install the aircon for you. All cost should be included but when the contractor come to your house, start to say this must pay that must pay... what will you do? You call the shop that you bought the aircon and if the shop doesn't take its contractor to task, it would obviously mean that shop also got integrity problem lah! Such simple logic.

Goh Meng Seng

A quotation is not a bill, that something even a primary school kid knows.

This is rather dishonest and childish on your part. At the very least. the article of Alex Au was done in a very clear and objective manner. U have a lot to learn from him.
 
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cBMouTh

Alfrescian
Loyal
I am goh meng seng.

Look at me. Look at me. Look at my cheebye mouth.

Yakking nonstop on this issue even though I say I will stop. Sorry my cheebye mouth couldn't resist.
 

aurvandil

Alfrescian
Loyal
There are many valid commercial reasons for why customers would go behind a main contractor and go to a sub contractor directly. The most common reason is price. For example the HA could have felt that the charges were too high. It could then go behind AHPE TC to get a quote with the intent of taking over the cleaning. Another possibility would be to get a quote and use this quote to estimate the margin being earned. This information is then used to bargain for a better price. Unless there is a non-compete in place, a sub contractor is perfectly entitled to provide a quote. It is stretch to say because a quote has been provided, there is intent to cheat the customer.

I have already told you, if AHPeTC closed both eyes to its contractor's wrong doing, yes, it is at fault.

Goh Meng Seng
 

SgParent

Alfrescian
Loyal
What fault are we talking about here?

Going behind AHPETC's back to give quotation directly to lackey NgKK? Or trying to double charge for the cleaning job?

There are many valid commercial reasons for why customers would go behind a main contractor and go to a sub contractor directly. The most common reason is price. For example the HA could have felt that the charges were too high. It could then go behind AHPE TC to get a quote with the intent of taking over the cleaning. Another possibility would be to get a quote and use this quote to estimate the margin being earned. This information is then used to bargain for a better price. Unless there is a non-compete in place, a sub contractor is perfectly entitled to provide a quote. It is stretch to say because a quote has been provided, there is intent to cheat the customer.

I would love to be honored with a reply from Rabid GohMS.

Nothing else lighten up my day like seeing a fake 40% painting himself up the ceiling, out of the window and up the roof.
 

cunnilaubu

Alfrescian (InfP)
Generous Asset
No matter under what circumstances, ATL should not be making quotation to the hawkers for job already paid for by the TC. Period. That's plain dishonesty and it doesn't matter whether the hawkers ask for the quotes or not.

I don't think it is right to say ATL is dishonest without knowing the full fact and circumstances leading to them quoting for the job (unless you know something which we don't).
But I do agree that ATL should at least have check with AHPETC before making the quote. Have they done that? Did AHPETC gave them the permission? I think ATL owes everyone an answer.
 

Goh Meng Seng

Alfrescian (InfP) [Comp]
Generous Asset
You see, it is either AHPeTC didn't put that costing or requirement in their contract to ATL or that ATL just quote the same service dishonestly though it has already been provided for in the contract.

AHPeTC has insisted that it is in the contract, thus the only possibility is ATL must be dishonest. Worse of all, ATL refused to clean the ceiling according to the contract with AHPeTC after failing to extract extra charges from hawkers.....

Unless, AHPeTC is not telling the truth and the contract didn't include the high rise cleaning in their contract... which one, you choose lor...Now you know why LTK wants to move on liao, right? Either way, AHPeTC also jialat.

Goh Meng Seng


I don't think it is right to say ATL is dishonest without knowing the full fact and circumstances leading to them quoting for the job (unless you know something which we don't).
But I do agree that ATL should at least have check with AHPETC before making the quote. Have they done that? Did AHPETC gave them the permission? I think ATL owes everyone an answer.
 

zhihau

Super Moderator
SuperMod
Asset
Now you know why LTK wants to move on liao, right?
Goh Meng Seng

this one me is with you, LTK, with SL, PS & AHPeTC should sit with VB, NEA, the hawkers, the MSM and ATL. time to show hand. see which idiot has to take the rap.
 

Goh Meng Seng

Alfrescian (InfP) [Comp]
Generous Asset
But the truth is even the Hawkers expect the ceiling to be cleaned FOC... just like you expect the installation of aircon to be FOC as agreed with the shop.

Even if clients ask subcontractor to quote for EXTRA job, if the Main Con finds out, it will sure sue the subcontractor for breach of contract as the contract itself will include such clause that the subcontractor should not get direct jobs from its clients. Thus, it is totally illogical for WP Sylvia to claim that this has nothing to do with AHPeTC. It is just an attempt to siam responsibility...thus the irresponsibility.

AHPeTC has backtracked and claimed that the high rise cleaning is already included in their contract to the contractor as well. Thus, it is apparent that no matter how we look at it, it is ATL, the contractor that have erred dishonestly.

Goh Meng Seng

There are many valid commercial reasons for why customers would go behind a main contractor and go to a sub contractor directly. The most common reason is price. For example the HA could have felt that the charges were too high. It could then go behind AHPE TC to get a quote with the intent of taking over the cleaning. Another possibility would be to get a quote and use this quote to estimate the margin being earned. This information is then used to bargain for a better price. Unless there is a non-compete in place, a sub contractor is perfectly entitled to provide a quote. It is stretch to say because a quote has been provided, there is intent to cheat the customer.
 

SgParent

Alfrescian
Loyal
But the truth is even the Hawkers expect the ceiling to be cleaned FOC... just like you expect the installation of aircon to be FOC as agreed with the shop.

Even if clients ask subcontractor to quote for EXTRA job, if the Main Con finds out, it will sure sue the subcontractor for breach of contract as the contract itself will include such clause that the subcontractor should not get direct jobs from its clients. Thus, it is totally illogical for WP Sylvia to claim that this has nothing to do with AHPeTC. It is just an attempt to siam responsibility...thus the irresponsibility.

AHPeTC has backtracked and claimed that the high rise cleaning is already included in their contract to the contractor as well. Thus, it is apparent that no matter how we look at it, it is ATL, the contractor that have erred dishonestly.

Goh Meng Seng

You see, it is either AHPeTC didn't put that costing or requirement in their contract to ATL or that ATL just quote the same service dishonestly though it has already been provided for in the contract.

AHPeTC has insisted that it is in the contract, thus the only possibility is ATL must be dishonest. Worse of all, ATL refused to clean the ceiling according to the contract with AHPeTC after failing to extract extra charges from hawkers.....

Unless, AHPeTC is not telling the truth and the contract didn't include the high rise cleaning in their contract... which one, you choose lor...Now you know why LTK wants to move on liao, right? Either way, AHPeTC also jialat.

Goh Meng Seng

So your smoking gun is the annual cleaning in Mar included >2.5m cleaning?

You need a new reading glasses or you purposely left out mentioning the cleaning schedule provided by AHPETC.

Either way, Rabid GohMS also jialat
 

aurvandil

Alfrescian
Loyal
This is only possible if there is a non-compete clause in the contract between AHPE TC and ATL. Even if there is such a clause, there would not be a breach is all the sub contractor did was submit a quote. For a breach to occur, the minimum threshold is for the contract to be be awarded.

As mentioned before, simply producing a quote is not evidence of any intent to cheat. For this to be evidence, we need other supporting documents ( e.g circular announcing the additional charges, invoices to the hawkers). So far, none of this has been produced. There is therefore no evidence supporting the claim that the hawkers were asked to pay extra.

Given the nature of the business, it seems highly unlikely that AHPE TC has a non-compete clause with ATL. Such a non-compete clause would be meaningless in any case given the number of other companies offering similar services to ATL.

With regard to the intent of the quote, Ng Kok Khim to whom the quote is addressed, is now denying that he even asked for a quote in the first place. He claims that ATL sent the quote to his shop "by mistake". If ATL had tried to "double charge" as claimed, then Mr Ng should be saying he requested for the quote because ATL said they had to pay extra. The following is his version of what happened:

Grassroots leader in hawker centre cleaning dispute: 'I have no political motives'

http://www.singapolitics.sg/news/gr...-cleaning-dispute-i-have-no-political-motives

A grassroots leader and patron of a market association involved in a dispute over the cleaning of hawker centres in Aljunied GRC has responded to online allegations about his role in the spat.

Mr Ng Kok Khim, 60, who had been the target of online speculation in recent days since it emerged that he was a PAP member, told Singapolitics that he had no political motives in his handling of the cleaning issue and stressed that he had never asked the cleaning contractor engaged by the town council for a quotation.

“We were surprised when we got the quotation,” he said.

The spotlight had been turned on Mr Ng after a quotation from ATL Maintenance in February was shown to have been addressed to him. The quotation is one of the key elements in the ongoing debate over whether the Worker’s Party-run Aljunied-Hougang-Punggol East Town Council (AHPETC) had asked hawkers to pay more to have their ceilings cleaned.

AHPETC maintains that no town council staff ever asked for more money, while the National Environment Agency (NEA), and hawkers say the opposite.

Mr Ng said that he thinks the quotation was mailed to him because his shop address is the mailing address of the Block 538 market association in Bedok North.

He was chairman of the association until he stepped down a couple of years back and became its patron.

“My shop address is used by the town council and government agencies like the Housing Board when they correspond with the market association,” said Mr Ng in Mandarin.

Mr Ng said it “did not make sense” for the hawkers to ask ATL for a separate quotation as the cleaning was entirely handled by the town council in previous years. This was corroborated by current market association chairman Tan Gin Xiong, 66.

However, Mr Ng said he and other hawkers did approach their own contacts informally for quotes on the cost of erecting canvas covers for the stalls ahead of the March cleaning. About five contractors came down to view the market stalls before one agreed to take on the job. ATL was not among them, said Mr Ng.

Each hawker eventually paid $140 for the canvas covers.

Mr Ng said the hawkers had gone to AHPETC to clarify matters after they received the ATL quotation. They then went to Genting on a trip organised by the market association during the first three days of the March spring-cleaning and came back to find the market ceiling uncleaned.

He dismisses allegations that he had politics on his mind when he and hawkers raised the cleaning issue.
“I have never had any political motives. I have always seen my role as serving the community,” he said.

The shopkeeper, who has run his children’s apparel store near the Block 538 market for over 30 years, confirmed that he is a member of both the Citizens’ Consultative Committee for Kaki Bukit division and the People’s Action Party.

Mr Ng said he and the market association maintain friendly relations with the WP MP for Kaki Bukit division, Mr Muhamad Faisal Abdul Manap, who they have invited to dinners and other events. “We do not take sides,” he said.

Mr Ng said he hopes the issue can be resolved as soon as possible. Mr Faisal’s representatives have already spoken to the Block 538 hawkers. “We told them we will be satisfied if AHPETC bears the cost of the next spring-cleaning”, said Mr Ng.

Even if clients ask subcontractor to quote for EXTRA job, if the Main Con finds out, it will sure sue the subcontractor for breach of contract as the contract itself will include such clause that the subcontractor should not get direct jobs from its clients.
 
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SgParent

Alfrescian
Loyal
this one me is with you, LTK, with SL, PS & AHPeTC should sit with VB, NEA, the hawkers, the MSM and ATL. time to show hand. see which idiot has to take the rap.

The latest situation is, girl girl threw out the impossible condition before she will get dressed up to meet the rest. So how not to move on? Unless you think WP/Ah Low should apologize just so that they get the chance to meet girl girl?
 

SgParent

Alfrescian
Loyal
With regard to the intent of the quote, Ng Kok Khim to whom the quote is addressed, is now denying that he even asked for a quote in the first place. He claims that ATL sent the quote to his shop "by mistake".

........

Grassroots leader in hawker centre cleaning dispute: 'I have no political motives'

http://www.singapolitics.sg/news/gr...-cleaning-dispute-i-have-no-political-motives

............. he had never asked the cleaning contractor engaged by the town council for a quotation.

“We were surprised when we got the quotation,” he said.

................

Mr Ng said that he thinks the quotation was mailed to him because his shop address is the mailing address of the Block 538 market association in Bedok North.

He was chairman of the association until he stepped down a couple of years back and became its patron.

“My shop address is used by the town council and government agencies like the Housing Board when they correspond with the market association,” said Mr Ng in Mandarin..

I dunno lah. A bit unconvincing.

Maybe mistaken by mailing address but the quotation is specifically addressed to him.

Can telco provide incoming/outgoing call records between lackey NgKK and ATL?
 
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