Association of Muslim Professionals finally wake up and take their PAP partner.

[Ramseth]

In my childhood, I've lived for sometime in Beach Road. There were morning and afternoon and evening mosque calls to prayer, broadcast through loudspeakers, waking up the whole neighbourhood whether Muslims or non-Muslims. Nobody really complained. Chinese would bang their drums and gongs too at occasions far more frequent than now. That was real understanding and harmony, not mere tolerance, between different people of different creeds living together.

During Hari Raya, Malays would give homemade foods to Chinese neighbours and friends, or invite them to "open" house. During CNY, Chinese would do likewise for Malays, but bearing in mind to spare the meat and alcohol as gifts or treats.

 

[RoyMcFarland]

I've read through some great observations and comments on both sides of this debate and its been generally quite civil with some obvious exceptions, as usual.

First of all, let me state my stand. I agree with LKY's comments on this issue 100%. Before anybody blasts me as anti Malay or pro PAP, let me say that this is the first time in years that I've agreed totally with the old man's opinions.

However, I totally disagree that he should have brought this out in the open like this. When LKY says something, it is perceived as official government policy or thinking. Being who he is and his position in the Govt, he should have been more careful. He should have worked behind the scenes with his Malay MPs and Malay/Muslim groups to address this issue. Maybe he has. And maybe he feels frustrated at the progress of this dialog. But you don't try to build racial tolerance and integration by publicly screwing the very people you are trying to reach, no matter how unreachable they appear to be. Racial integration is not a zero sum game. You are never going to achieve perfection. This is one time when Singapore need not be No 1.

My views on religion and religiosity is shaped by my life experiences and I've come to the conclusion that religion is a man made phenomena to address man's fear of his own mortality. Accepting death at the end of your life is made a little easier by accepting the idea that it is not the end but the beginning of something else. Don't get me wrong, I'm not an atheist. I believe in God. I have to. It explains my presence on this earth and why somethings happen. It will also help me accept my end. But, I definitely don't believe that to accept, embrace or honour him/her/it, I have to follow the man made forms and customs that all these religions preach. Not eating pork or beef or for that matter any meat will not make me a more decent man. It probably will make me a more healthy person, that's all. Going to mass on Sundays or to a mosque on Fridays or Hindu/Taoists temples on certain days is not going to help me to be more helpful to others. I'm not immoral if I choose not to wear anything on my body or head that I don't like. (within common laws of decency) But, that's me. Just as I don't like anybody forcing their views on me, I dare not force it on others. Everybody is free to follow their practices in their own space but when human beings share the common space, they should compromise. And that is the dilemma, I guess..

Just two more points. Firstly, I agree with the forummers who yearn for the good old days before the 80s when we had all this diversity in race and religion but yet lived together relatively well. But when the Govt( and LKY was the PM) started telling us that we were different and started treating us differently but forcing us to be one nation one people, it all began to unravel. This also coincided with the 1979 Islamic revolution in Iran.

Secondly, I've always wondered how much of the forms and practices of our major religions of the world originated from the geography and culture of the peoples who started it...

 

[theblackhole]

Thank you Roy.

Wonderful piece.<clap clap clap>

 

[scroobal]

AMP does not allow PAP MPs Malays or otherwise to represent them. During the 2001 crisis, the snubbed all the Malay MPs and were only prepared to deal with the PM , GCT.

The deal was brokered by GCT after protracted negotiations. As result, most of the Malay MPs were retired. AMP has a say who they are prepared to work with in terms of Malay PAP MPs. Unfortunately the marriage has not been good. This is probably the last straw.

AMP is 20 years old and every 10 years there will be storm. This is the 2nd storm. Looks like old man did not realise he was going to cause it.

Is the chief exec still Ahmad Madgad?

I am still trying to figure where he got his PhD from..... is it same source as Dr Ron Sim of Osim or Dr Jannie Tay???

 

[scroobal]

Excellent piece except that SAP schools whether truly chinese or not is the issue. It is projected as Chinese and treated as exclusively Chinese. Enough to divide the nation. After much complaints, they allowed couple of non-chinese in. Looks at the facilities given and why call it "Super".

I still can't believe that the old man managed to convince 76% of pop that their mother tongue is something else. If he was born speaking fluent Hokkein and Chin Siong spoke Cantonese, I am certain that this would have delivered a different country.

Sri Lanka wasted 50 years of its independence because an English educated Christian Prime Minister converted to Buddhism to suck up to the majority and became ultra nationalist to remain in tenure. It worked. His wife and daughter also became PMs. All in the family. Sounds familiar. I does not matter what religion or language you are born with, all unscrupulous politicians will always play with language, race and religion cards to stay in power.

I think Singaporeans of all races should do away with this us-and-them adversarial mentality. In my grandfather's days as a colony, racial and religious harmony truly prevailed over Singapore. It was LKY's policies for his own political gains to started to crack the faultlines in the 60s. First he went after the Chinese to destroy the support base for Barisan Socialis, then he isolated the Malays to hold them as soft house arrest political hostages. After creating an entire generation of majority English educated Chinese detached from Chinese culture, and PAP voters by default without much thought, he tried to set them apart again with mother-tongue policies and SAP schools. Chinese and non-Chinese alike, don't be fooled. Mandarin is not mother-tongue to most Chinese Singaporeans just as Tamil is not mother-tongue to many Indian Singaporeans. SAP schools are not Chinese schools. There were Chinese schools but has become English schools disguised as Chinese schools with an extra subject of "Higher" Chinese that in fact is just of common secondary standard in PRC or ROC. However, this conveniently excluded most non-Chinese from SAP schools and even prevented most Chinese from learning some real Chinese, giving SAP schools an elite aura, that only Chinese deemed to be intelligent enough can be allowed to learn it. At the rest of the non-SAP schools, CL2 standard is stuck at primary standard.

I think we should also do away with any notion of this my land or your land. We're in this all together. Don't play into policitians' traps to divide and perpetuate their rule.

 

[Loofydralb]

Good that Roy agrees 100% with the old man.

So he should be able to answer this simple question:

What specifically does LKY want us to do to be fully integrated and less strict?

Don't be vague and give 'pie-in-the-sky' kinda answers.

Either you got it or you don't.

 

[scroobal]

Great stuff bro. Always good stuff from this PP vet.

I've read through some great observations and comments on both sides of this debate and its been generally quite civil with some obvious exceptions, as usual.

F.

 

[Khun Ying Pojaman]

I've read through some great observations and comments on both sides of this debate and its been generally quite civil with some obvious exceptions, as usual....

I'm very impressed with the way you combined intelligence with civility.

You should become the moderator of this forum instead.

 

[RoyMcFarland]

Good that Roy agrees 100% with the old man.

So he should be able to answer this simple question:

What specifically does LKY want us to do to be fully integrated and less strict?

Don't be vague and give 'pie-in-the-sky' kinda answers.

Either you got it or you don't.

I cannot, nor would I know, what the old man wants the Malays to do to be more integrated into the national community. The AMP and other Malay Muslim groups have rightfully asked him that. And hopefully he will answer. Agreeing with him that there is a problem doesn't mean I have his answers. And anyway, it should be discussed behind closed doors. By the way, I think it should be "more" and not "fully". Don't think anybody can be "fully" integrated, do you?

If you've read my post carefully, you would realise what I meant by less strict... It seems to be a bigger dilema for the Muslims than the other mainstream religions....

 

[RoyMcFarland]

Thank you Roy.

Wonderful piece.<clap clap clap>

Thanks Bro..

 

[RoyMcFarland]

Great stuff bro. Always good stuff from this PP vet.

Thanks Bro. Though we don't always agree, I've always found what you had to say on any subject very thought provoking, informative and balanced.

Cheers!

 

[Loofydralb]

I cannot, nor would I know, what the old man wants the Malays to do to be more integrated into the national community. The AMP and other Malay Muslim groups have rightfully asked him that. And hopefully he will answer. Agreeing with him that there is a problem doesn't mean I have his answers. And anyway, it should be discussed behind closed doors. By the way, I think it should be "more" and not "fully". Don't think anybody can be "fully" integrated, do you?

If you've read my post carefully, you would realise what I meant by less strict... It seems to be a bigger dilema for the Muslims than the other mainstream religions....

I was being abit cheeky. If no one can say how Muslims can be less strict, then it follows, LKY's assertion that we have not integrated, is faulty?

BTW, I really meant 'fully'. Naughty me.

Also how can you state you 100% agree with what the old man wrote when you can't even give an example? Not an inkling?

Maybe you meant 55.78%. No one can do 100%. That would be perfection. No?

 

[RoyMcFarland]

I'm very impressed with the way you combined intelligence with civility.

You should become the moderator of this forum instead.

Thanks but no thanks... :-)

I think there's a lot of brothers here, not only in this thread who are regularly contributing good ideas and balanced comments..

Cheers!

 

[RoyMcFarland]

I was being abit cheeky. If no one can say how Muslims can be less strict, then it follows, LKY's assertion that we have not integrated, is faulty?

BTW, I really meant 'fully'. Naughty me.

Also how can you state you 100% agree with what the old man wrote when you can't even give an example? Not an inkling?

Maybe you meant 55.78%. No one can do 100%. That would be perfection. No?

Maybe saying I agree 100% was for effect. :-) What I meant was I agree that while the Malay Muslim community has been peaceful and made progress in integrating, they remain more separate and distinct than the others. And I agree that is due to following Muslim customs and cultural practices strictly. Therein lies the dilemma for them.

 

[GoldenDragon]

Is the chief exec still Ahmad Madgad?

I am still trying to figure where he got his PhD from..... is it same source as Dr Ron Sim of Osim or Dr Jannie Tay???

His PhD is from Pizza hut Delivery.

 

[QXD]

Is it just me or does no one else see the fact that LKY can tell the "hard truths" with no fear of consequence from the judiciary and the other PAP establishments only goes to show the ugly proof of his despotic hold on Singapore?

And all the discussions here are really pathetic, splitting hairs here and there, nitpicking, hanging on to every word he says, like the very "debate" that it has stirred amongst PAP dogs, all seems to add up to a diversionary tactic that PAP is using to mask some thing ugly brewing just under the rader.

All all these discussions...almost seem like they are entertaining LKY's act of sedition towards the entire Singapore.

SINGAPORE! Are we all becoming cowards? Where is our pride as a nation of people!

 

[Jah_rastafar_I]

Excellent piece except that SAP schools whether truly chinese or not is the issue. It is projected as Chinese and treated as exclusively Chinese. Enough to divide the nation. After much complaints, they allowed couple of non-chinese in. Looks at the facilities given and why call it "Super".

I still can't believe that the old man managed to convince 76% of pop that their mother tongue is something else. If he was born speaking fluent Hokkein and Chin Siong spoke Cantonese, I am certain that this would have delivered a different country.

Sri Lanka wasted 50 years of its independence because an English educated Christian Prime Minister converted to Buddhism to suck up to the majority and became ultra nationalist to remain in tenure. It worked. His wife and daughter also became PMs. All in the family. Sounds familiar. I does not matter what religion or language you are born with, all unscrupulous politicians will always play with language, race and religion cards to stay in power.

You are very wrong here. Sap schools are not racist at all. Non chinese students can enroll in it by learning mandarin. Noticed couple of indians in my school. One of them was pure indian too studied mandarin from primary school up till sec school.


There are many schools with an old boys network and so on. Take ACS for eg, mostly made up of ppl from the upper echlons of society and so on. If some poor schmuck from a dialect speaking family enrolled into ACS he would most likely stick out like a sore thumb. Could the ah beng complain that this school wants to divide sg society?

Here's another point, nobody forces anyone else to enroll in such a school. If you're a chinese student and you don't like such an environment don't enroll in it. What's your problem?

 

[Jah_rastafar_I]

Maybe saying I agree 100% was for effect. :-) What I meant was I agree that while the Malay Muslim community has been peaceful and made progress in integrating, they remain more separate and distinct than the others. And I agree that is due to following Muslim customs and cultural practices strictly. Therein lies the dilemma for them.

Yup it's indeed a dilemma but at the end of the day they shouldn't expect to have their cake and eat it too.

This country isn't a muslim country and muslims aren't the majority, yet sg greatly respects the muslims and the malays. Yet the situation shouldn't end up as ppl from any group being given an inch and expect to take a yard from it. There needs to come a time when someone needs to put down his foot and tell them firmly no matter how unsensitive it may sound in no uncertain terms "Hey your practices are disturbing the social cohesion of the country. Now we're not going to forcefully make you change it but by bringing up this discussion ppl will observe for themselves that yes what he says is true and by using logic and reasonable discussion root out the extremists and ultra sensitive ppl with the help of the ppl in their own community and then put in effort to also give back to society to make it more cohesive.

 

[Malays Must Vote PAP!]

I think we should also do away with any notion of this my land or your land.

As I have stated earlier, we Malays owing to our "soft" culture and religion are a welcoming people. In the past, we have embraced the Chinese as our brothers and sisters and have willingly accepted them as co-owners of our ancestral Malay land.

Now that the heads of the Chinese have grown too big for their shoulders and they start strutting around as if they own our land and can do as they please, we will no longer see and accept them as co-owners but usurpers of our ancestral Malay land.

We will now deal with the Chinese as usurpers of our land.

 

[patrickv]

muslim babi,

deal what deal? deal your lancheow lah. fuck you:oIo: faster go and deliver the mc breakfast ok. :oIo: