Property News

sgcount said:

But if what we are seeing is something uninspiring, isn't it quite bad? I think people (investors) like HOPE. At least hope based on promises that the authorities will deliver eventually. But how this translates to benefits for the people is still a question mark.

Like I said, they can develop buildings, offices, corporations. But this could be for the big players up there. Small time investors may not necessarily enjoy the same boom.

I am beginning to understand what a Malaysian told me some time back: "Don't think just because they say High Speed Rail is going to be built near your property means you will also prosper."

I think I can see now that indeed, everything is developed based on their own time. They can talk, promise, show pictures, show nice videos. But they will still do what they want slowly. Timeline can be stretched also. Things may or may not happen. This is something non-Malaysian investors may find hard to accept or something new.

To sum up, if that is the case, I think it's still better to buy for one's for needs. If one is going to throw his chips based on news and what is being said by the authorities, it could be a very long wait or even end up nothing to show for.

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An enlighten one!
NIRVANA

sgcount said:

But if what we are seeing is something uninspiring, isn't it quite bad? I think people (investors) like HOPE. At least hope based on promises that the authorities will deliver eventually. But how this translates to benefits for the people is still a question mark.

Like I said, they can develop buildings, offices, corporations. But this could be for the big players up there. Small time investors may not necessarily enjoy the same boom.

I am beginning to understand what a Malaysian told me some time back: "Don't think just because they say High Speed Rail is going to be built near your property means you will also prosper."

I think I can see now that indeed, everything is developed based on their own time. They can talk, promise, show pictures, show nice videos. But they will still do what they want slowly. Timeline can be stretched also. Things may or may not happen. This is something non-Malaysian investors may find hard to accept or something new.

To sum up, if that is the case, I think it's still better to buy for one's for needs. If one is going to throw his chips based on news and what is being said by the authorities, it could be a very long wait or even end up nothing to show for.

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Precisely that is what I am trying to tell.
The word HOPE means it is based on a indefinite time line. It is a wish after the word DREAMS. It is unrealised.

The big difference is that Singaporeans trust their Government and will follow exactly what they said they will do. In Malaysia, many announcements are political, sabre rattling or even trying to pre-empt something. The level of accuracy and dependability is vastly different. State level political leaders changes every 4 years in Malaysia, hence priorities changes as well. Do not invest based on skin deep information. Probe deeper for answers.

However in Singapore, the Government has been there since day one, the continuity of policies will be there over the years.

I often liken all these as trying to cross a flooded muddy road. You assume the road is just a road but never know if there's a uncovered manhole in the murky water.

Tekkun said:

Precisely that is what I am trying to tell.
The word HOPE means it is based on a indefinite time line. It is a wish after the word DREAMS. It is unrealised.

The big difference is that Singaporeans trust their Government and will follow exactly what they said they will do. In Malaysia, many announcements are political, sabre rattling or even trying to pre-empt something. The level of accuracy and dependability is vastly different. State level political leaders changes every 4 years in Malaysia, hence priorities changes as well. Do not invest based on skin deep information. Probe deeper for answers.

However in Singapore, the Government has been there since day one, the continuity of policies will be there over the years.

I often liken all these as trying to cross a flooded muddy road. You assume the road is just a road but never know if there's a uncovered manhole in the murky water.

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Listen to the wise man!

sgcount said:

I don't think he meant the smaller developers will run away. So far there is no sign that will be the case....But looking at the broader picture, I now personally think a bit similarly to xebay11's point above.


I think the "eco-system" in a city is very complex. It's easy to argue the HSR, universities, several companies will be there, what could go wrong? Sure huat one. But property investors could still be left dry and will not benefit from all these amenities in place.

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You raised up a insightful concern. Beside the unknown time length for other catalysts to happen, one may ask, even if happen, what will it do to my investment? Actually no need to look far, it even happen in singapore. Wah, nearby got mrt, close to good school, close to shopping etc etc, buy sure no wrong one....then when sell, rugi. So what went wrong? I think afterall, price is the final determinant for everything. Everythings ready in singapore neighbourhood settings, the price will be hotcake price everyone chasing....things will be fine when oven still on.

Tekkun said:

If you don't mind, may I chip in.

Medini Iskandar is just like any company who need to ply their trade. They are have a job to do ie to market Medini the best they could. You do not expect them to say Medini is going to be ghost town, right?

Big boys or small boys does not matter to me in terms of future of development. I am still the "what you see is what you get" type. Long term guessing or projection is not for me. Too many "subjected to this and that conditions".

Many investors do not understand about the way Malaysia develop their townships. The authorities only do the basic macro development ie to announce whatever incentives, build the infrastructures. It is entirely up to the private sectors to build, lure or bring in the investors. It allow the township to grow naturally according to natural economics.

So to plunge in based entirely on "Malaysian Government efforts" is totally wrong. Of course, the authorities would try to place their public sectors in those office buildings as magnets and hopefully the private sectors would come as well. Office buildings and condominiums are totally different. Offices and shophouses may be fully occupied in the day time but at night, it is totally deserted. So please to not listen 100% to what the Government say as whatever they said is meant for strategic timeline and that means 20 years down the road.

Having said that, I am a strong supporter of Sunway group. I know they not only build but they make efforts to make the township jive. There also another is a very big time developer who just build and deliver but doesn't care if the project is successful or not. Post development is not in their vocab.

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Malaysia got successfully build ghost town before, and now remain a ghost town, see cyberjaya, putrajaya. Malaysia unlike western countries, malaysia gov still have a big hand in corporations. Many things you think is private, actually big boss is still malaysia gov. Legoland malaysia, actually merlin entertainment give full ownership away i.e. they do not operate, same thing to gleneagle (brands name own by malaysian, even the one in sg), medini mall, all khazanah asset, and they dont care operation loss. If malaysian gov care, proton MAS should all gone by now. So I would say, 10-20% initial dare devil may all are government entity, to lure in more private sheep into the place, successful or not, remain to be seen.

On whether a group will care for a city post developement? Should depend whether they still have vested interest in the city. Those build and sell all developers will not care, be it sunway or whatever brand name developers. Sunway care, because in KL, they still have interest in the city i.e. still collecting rent.

Tekkun said:

Precisely that is what I am trying to tell.
The word HOPE means it is based on a indefinite time line. It is a wish after the word DREAMS. It is unrealised.

The big difference is that Singaporeans trust their Government and will follow exactly what they said they will do. In Malaysia, many announcements are political, sabre rattling or even trying to pre-empt something. The level of accuracy and dependability is vastly different. State level political leaders changes every 4 years in Malaysia, hence priorities changes as well. Do not invest based on skin deep information. Probe deeper for answers.

However in Singapore, the Government has been there since day one, the continuity of policies will be there over the years.

I often liken all these as trying to cross a flooded muddy road. You assume the road is just a road but never know if there's a uncovered manhole in the murky water.

Click to expand...

Ya, malaysian gov need to be push. Sg long long time ady plan where to build, what is the likely plan etc while malaysia still dunno who in charge. Hopefully sg threaten to withdraw the collaboration in certain time length, only then malaysia will start to do their job proactively. Consistency, malaysia still better than many western country la, you see US trade deal, or Australia or Japan speed of changing prime minister, even myself also afraid.

snowbird said:

In order to develop a successful CDB within the Iskander, he needs to attract multi-national offices, banks and financial institutions etc and instead of more and more manufacturers and factories.
Both SG and HK had more than 200 local and foreign banks each, if only he can manage to attract a fraction of them to set up shop here.
Or convince the Federal govt to set up Johor Stock Exchange, like what Shenzhen did, then all the banking and other financial institutions will flock here in no time.

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THis sort of thing, very easy to say la, and totally not following development phase. I believe if ISkandar IRDA say they want to build Johor Stock Exchange, be financial center complement to singapore, many singaporean will be smarter not venturing into Iskandar because many will believe it will doom to fail. Anyway I do not believe financial center so close to each other can complement.

A simple question, where are those banks, financial institutions going to find business? Are they going to support local iskandar economy....but if they come in so early, has iskandar economy mature enough to support the finance sector? Has the macroenvironment viable for such development? Are the existing finance institutions (many in mount austin) in iskandar sufficient? How to find more bank clients to support those jobs? Most importantly, able to compete with singapore for regional clients? Without answering such basic question, your suggestion basically hard to achieve.

Apparently you do not know what shen zhen did, arent you? Shenzhen open as a special economy zone back in 1979, their stock exchange begin in 1990, i believe even younger than you. Ok they open that late bcoz of some historical reason, the whole shenzhen exchange back then is actually a big casino filled with fraudulent behaviour and highly unregulated....iskandar is not prepare for it at this stage of development.

Throughout history, becoming a financial centre (and im not saying financial hub) is not that easy. Even some top notch city may not be prominent in finance, such as melbourne, vancouver, los angeles etc. In order to develop a successful CBD, finance is best but not the only way. A rich and successful city always have their purpose in global economy. Kuwait, Abu Dhabi....sell oil. Dubai, Bali, Sanya, Orlando...tourist destination. Then regional finance hub like HK, SG, Frankfurt etc. Port hub like SG, Amsterdam etc. The point is, rather than competing in unfamiliar area, know your city position is the easiest and most achievable target. Southeast asia theme park hub, Petrochemical porduct hub, manufacturing base for offshore sg firms, top 5 most livable city in southeast asia...or top 20 most livable city in asia...all are more achievable and can equally attract wealth and people coming in...takes time to achieve too.

But then maybe if position correctly and sly enough, Iskandar may have a chance to steal islamic finance hub from KL....this hub still havent exist yet, impact remain unknown. Then the whole iskandar may have chance to leap and bounce quicker. For now, if they can make many singaporean willing to live here, already consider a good achievement. At least the condo got some rental demands....

rotikok said:

You raised up a insightful concern. Beside the unknown time length for other catalysts to happen, one may ask, even if happen, what will it do to my investment? Actually no need to look far, it even happen in singapore. Wah, nearby got mrt, close to good school, close to shopping etc etc, buy sure no wrong one....then when sell, rugi. So what went wrong? I think afterall, price is the final determinant for everything. Everythings ready in singapore neighbourhood settings, the price will be hotcake price everyone chasing....things will be fine when oven still on.

Malaysia got successfully build ghost town before, and now remain a ghost town, see cyberjaya, putrajaya.

Legoland malaysia, actually merlin entertainment give full ownership away i.e. they do not operate, same thing to gleneagle (brands name own by malaysian, even the one in sg), medini mall, all khazanah asset, and they dont care operation loss.

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Yah, I learned the truths the hard way. I wrongly applied what I knew about SG properties to Johor. I now realize in Johor (or Malaysia in general) even if amenities are there, things may still not move. So when they say establishment A,B,C will be there, don't use this as a guarantee the place sure huat. If there are no amenities, it's even worse. (I'm thinking mainly in relation to Medini.)

For SG, it's quite different. If you have all the good stuffs and amenities there, usually the properties will do well. The one you mentioned rugi when selling maybe it could be bad timing.

How bad is Cyberjaya and Putrajaya? Are they really ghost towns? Did they also start out with lots of promises but now still end up "inferior" to KL city? I wonder if some parts of Iskandar will turn out like that.

On Legoland, Gleneagles, Medini Mall, etc, some authorities have to oversee them. If they are losing money, won't anyone be concerned? I seriously wonder how they make money. If you pass by these places, you can see how quiet they are. I doubt they can make profits, even if the operational costs are low. There is hardly any human traffic there.

Tekkun said:

Precisely that is what I am trying to tell.
The word HOPE means it is based on a indefinite time line. It is a wish after the word DREAMS. It is unrealised.

The big difference is that Singaporeans trust their Government and will follow exactly what they said they will do. In Malaysia, many announcements are political, sabre rattling or even trying to pre-empt something. The level of accuracy and dependability is vastly different. State level political leaders changes every 4 years in Malaysia, hence priorities changes as well. Do not invest based on skin deep information. Probe deeper for answers.

However in Singapore, the Government has been there since day one, the continuity of policies will be there over the years.

I often liken all these as trying to cross a flooded muddy road. You assume the road is just a road but never know if there's a uncovered manhole in the murky water.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the honest truth from a Malaysian! This should be made a "sticky" somewhere to remind of potential investors.

Yes, SG government is different. They work on foresight planning and see through the plans even if it takes decades. I was surprised to read that for the MRT system, the plan was already discussed way back in the '70s! And yet for the HSR, initially the authorities came out like a champion to say within 5 years it will be completed, in 2020! So simple?

The Malaysian side, on the other hand, can come up with plans. But it's sad they don't have that tenacity or firm resolution to want to see it through.

I find that the way they work is like this: Find the money to build something, take your time, whether complete or not I don't care. Along the way, if I find I can pocket for myself RM3 million from somewhere, I will do it. Then I quit my job, not my problem any more. Someone else takes over. Ok you get my point. Sorry for the stereotype but it seems that's the way.

Malaysia can become a very prosperous country (even better than Singapore) if it is run by their own intelligent Chinese people who are clean and honest. They have so much land and commodities.

sgcount said:

Thanks for the honest truth from a Malaysian! This should be made a "sticky" somewhere to remind of potential investors.

Yes, SG government is different. They work on foresight planning and see through the plans even if it takes decades. I was surprised to read that for the MRT system, the plan was already discussed way back in the '70s! And yet for the HSR, initially the authorities came out like a champion to say within 5 years it will be completed, in 2020! So simple?

The Malaysian side, on the other hand, can come up with plans. But it's sad they don't have that tenacity or firm resolution to want to see it through.

I find that the way they work is like this: Find the money to build something, take your time, whether complete or not I don't care. Along the way, if I find I can pocket for myself RM3 million from somewhere, I will do it. Then I quit my job, not my problem any more. Someone else takes over. Ok you get my point. Sorry for the stereotype but it seems that's the way.

Malaysia can become a very prosperous country (even better than Singapore) if it is run by their own intelligent Chinese people who are clean and honest. They have so much land and commodities.

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One of Malaysia's biggest obstacles is political interference. The system had been entrenched for so many generations that it is very very difficult to reverse it. Then again, look at the whole of Asia. Which country is not the same except from Singapore? Only the degree is different, the attitude is the same.

Do keep a watch out on potential political change in Johore which might impact the property market.

You cannot fault Malaysians for their attitude. If you look at their backgrounds, Chinese immigrants do not have anything. They do not have any choice but to work hard and selfishly for themselves only. That character is built into their mind the minute they are born. On the other hand, the Malays had their forefathers looking after them. It is not that they are stupid or lazy. It is their culture and religion that they cannot be too greedy in business, (save for a few politicians). That's why profits and merit is not everything in Malaysia. Moderation is more important. Many people think Proton is a losing concern, therefore it must be closed down, the management is stupid. Actually Proton indirectly provide employment to hundreds of manufacturing companies whose employees run into thousands of workers. And taxes collected from these industries is substantial. People must have work to do to feed their families. It is not a case of you die, your problem, nothing to do with me.

Nowadays, it is no longer easy to line pockets candidly. The MACC is extremely active and we hear weekly news of arrests, the latest is the Chairman and 15 senior officers of a well known local bank. Having said that, money remains a figure in the bank unless it is spent. There would be no activities. Would there be corruption? Yes,there will be and it happen anywhere in the world. It is a question of reported or unreported, direct form or indirect form. And it can come in form of free trips, incentives, off shore consultancy contracts, etc.

The real world of clean and honest does not exists.

Singapore's constancy also got drawback in that it makes Singaporeans think that the world is a straight line and one just needs to extrapolate to know the future. As a consequence, many Singaporeans took a lot of hard knocks while in a less straightforward environments.

sgtsk said:

Singapore's constancy also got drawback in that it makes Singaporeans think that the world is a straight line and one just needs to extrapolate to know the future. As a consequence, many Singaporeans took a lot of hard knocks while in a less straightforward environments.

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SG's problems are that the world is fast changing, we have a small domestic market, and the general population is complacent and sticks to tried-and-tested solutions, which are often not so relevant in today's world.

sgcount said:

Yah, I learned the truths the hard way. I wrongly applied what I knew about SG properties to Johor. I now realize in Johor (or Malaysia in general) even if amenities are there, things may still not move. So when they say establishment A,B,C will be there, don't use this as a guarantee the place sure huat. If there are no amenities, it's even worse. (I'm thinking mainly in relation to Medini.)

For SG, it's quite different. If you have all the good stuffs and amenities there, usually the properties will do well. The one you mentioned rugi when selling maybe it could be bad timing.

How bad is Cyberjaya and Putrajaya? Are they really ghost towns? Did they also start out with lots of promises but now still end up "inferior" to KL city? I wonder if some parts of Iskandar will turn out like that.

On Legoland, Gleneagles, Medini Mall, etc, some authorities have to oversee them. If they are losing money, won't anyone be concerned? I seriously wonder how they make money. If you pass by these places, you can see how quiet they are. I doubt they can make profits, even if the operational costs are low. There is hardly any human traffic there.

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Still rugi in sg, bcoz the price get in is too high, good time bad time any time also can happen.

Cyberjaya long time dint go there liao, dunno how is it now. Very far away from city centre. If you try compare distance, along the coast even medini actually are very close to jb. Iskandar map, the land facing sg will have faster development and actually quite scarce resources, unlike cyberjaya, not only far, if development reach there, there are still area to expand outward. The coastal only way is to fill sea, or build bridge extend to tg piai. If you compare forest city vs tg kupang land (opposite forest city), one ground solid land still come at rm30 psf agri land (expensive agri land) while the newly fill land is >rm100 psf.

Whether will bcome ghosttown, if the city not expanding, economy stagnant...then yes lor. Our conventional understanding is the city still developing, but future a lot of uncertainty, i cant say for sure. You see china ghost town, is entirely diff city, china gov have to use force to move ppl into the newly build city. While medini, is just a city expansion, distance not far to be a independant city.

rotikok said:

Still rugi in sg, bcoz the price get in is too high, good time bad time any time also can happen.

Cyberjaya long time dint go there liao, dunno how is it now. Very far away from city centre. If you try compare distance, along the coast even medini actually are very close to jb. Iskandar map, the land facing sg will have faster development and actually quite scarce resources, unlike cyberjaya, not only far, if development reach there, there are still area to expand outward. The coastal only way is to fill sea, or build bridge extend to tg piai. If you compare forest city vs tg kupang land (opposite forest city), one ground solid land still come at rm30 psf agri land (expensive agri land) while the newly fill land is >rm100 psf.

Whether will bcome ghosttown, if the city not expanding, economy stagnant...then yes lor. Our conventional understanding is the city still developing, but future a lot of uncertainty, i cant say for sure. You see china ghost town, is entirely diff city, china gov have to use force to move ppl into the newly build city. While medini, is just a city expansion, distance not far to be a independant city.

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Cyberjaya has come a long way.

LimKokWing University, Heriot Watt University, Multimedia University, Cyberjaya University College of Medical Sc are all fully operational. Thousands of students. There are few shopping complex eg. Dpulze, Centrus, Shaftbury, etc. Jusco IOI mall is also there.
HSBC, Ericsson, IBM, BMW, Shell and DHL are all located there.
Lots of condo and G&G residences eg Shaftbury Residences, Pancea. Visited Symphony Hills 3 years back, pretty nice upmarket bungalow resort homes with a highrise condo built by UEM.

Cyberjaya will be have MRT stations through MRT 2 route which would begin construction end 2016.

Greenland and country garden on the list of suspected shadow banking property companies. Beware.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...roperty-companies-that-look-like-shadow-banks

Haa You seem to know Cyberjaya rather well. My KL girl friend used to tell me Putrajaya is a good place to cycle because of the lake. I always wanted to visit these two places but no time to follow up. The furthest I have been is to Jade Hills ( same developer as Gamuda of Horizon Hills ) and wasn't too pleased with the promised "on the hill" development as its just a small slope

Tekkun said:

Cyberjaya has come a long way.

LimKokWing University, Heriot Watt University, Multimedia University, Cyberjaya University College of Medical Sc are all fully operational. Thousands of students. There are few shopping complex eg. Dpulze, Centrus, Shaftbury, etc. Jusco IOI mall is also there.
HSBC, Ericsson, IBM, BMW, Shell and DHL are all located there.
Lots of condo and G&G residences eg Shaftbury Residences, Pancea. Visited Symphony Hills 3 years back, pretty nice upmarket bungalow resort homes with a highrise condo built by UEM.

Cyberjaya will be have MRT stations through MRT 2 route which would begin construction end 2016.

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Investor888 said:

Haa You seem to know Cyberjaya rather well. My KL girl friend used to tell me Putrajaya is a good place to cycle because of the lake. I always wanted to visit these two places but no time to follow up. The furthest I have been is to Jade Hills ( same developer as Gamuda of Horizon Hills ) and wasn't too pleased with the promised "on the hill" development as its just a small slope

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Myself KL guy la. But Cyberjaya is not my choice of neighbourhood.

Tekkun said:

Myself KL guy la. But Cyberjaya is not my choice of neighbourhood.

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Similar to Cyberjaya, the local Johoreans/SPR wont be choosing the greenfield developments as their choice of neighbourhood. That's why Bukit Indah houses can sell out so quickly.

RedsYNWA said:

Similar to Cyberjaya, the local Johoreans/SPR wont be choosing the greenfield developments as their choice of neighbourhood. That's why Bukit Indah houses can sell out so quickly.

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But then i think bukit indah also start out as a greenfield right, i rmb the place quite well planned but very far away, not many ppl back then. What make it vibrant is the early phase all houses priced reasonably, ppl who want to buy house and live able to do so. Not like medini, all want to rent out. When a new greenfield owner are all investors, you knew the result. Both are greenfield, one all want to buy and live, the other all want to buy and rent.

Oversea condo project also like that, when everyone buy as investors, better runaway, investors are dangerous! Only you can be investors when others are not!

RedsYNWA said:

SG's problems are that the world is fast changing, we have a small domestic market, and the general population is complacent and sticks to tried-and-tested solutions, which are often not so relevant in today's world.

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That's what people say when MSA split into SIA and MAS - SIA sure cannot survive, SG so small and domestic market even smaller.
Fast forward to today, one became a successful global airline with profits in millions annually and one in the red annually.
Ditto for SG and MY.

snowbird said:

That's what people say when MSA split into SIA and MAS - SIA sure cannot survive, SG so small and domestic market even smaller.
Fast forward to today, one became a successful global airline with profits in millions annually and one in the red annually.
Ditto for SG and MY.

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Fast forward to today, and one is growing its economy at 1% and the other at 4% per annum. The easy days of population ponzi are gone forever but sadly, many Singaporeans still dont realise it.

As an example, yesterday I was talking to a business unit CEO of 1 of the biggest retailers in SG, and he was so dismissive of the online threat that I found it shocking.

Naturally I didnt tell him that I had just bought my TV from Lazada the day before (after comparing prices of Courts, Lazada, Qoo10, Best Denki).