Speak Dialects, you feel tribal ! Speak mandarin, it will break unity!

Are you the old fart writing in pseudonym? It reflects on your ignorance as much when you make statements as such, basing conclusions upon your or your offspring's ability, or lack thereof. I am a product of the y-generation education system here, and I have no problems speaking at least 2 dialects in addition to the 'mainstream' languages.

I am no doubt you are a genius in languages!
unfortunately there are many kids that I know are struggling everyday in languages. I am not saying that we should be wiping off dialects extirely, I am just presenting my own average-joe mental power's point of view . To pack so much knowledge and skills in a short span of school years into my own kids, is a hugh job.

I am not a genius. Mind you, I am just as average a Joe as you claim to be. Besides, I did not propose to include dialect-learning in the school curriculum, did I? I merely said we shouldn't be taking such a negative view of it; if you don't call the govt's stance of banning it on TV and radio as an attempt to wipe it out, I don't know what is. To prove I am not an empty vessel, let me give my humble suggestions. First, we should start to include dialect programmes on national TV. Make programmes that teach dialect so that anyone who wants to learn can pick it up, instead of compelling kids to learn it (as you accuse me of saying). Second, we could teach dialect in schools on an opt-in basis. By this I mean, as an example, dialect courses as electives in universities, which would allow those who want to learn a chance to do so yet not having it forced down their throat.


I should probably just wake you up from your convenient misconception that dialect needs to be learnt. Well at least I did not have to. You pick it up speaking to your parents and the previous generations in everyday conversation. And if your children can't speak any of it, it probably reflects on you adopting a policy of not speaking it in your family.



Yoiu should take a trip to your dialect regions in China, to see if people there are resemble, in any form or shape or thinking of yours. For a a locally born and bred Singaporean to claim to be emotionally and identically attached to their dialect groups overseas are pure joke. You do not feel anything to those chineses growing up with you in Kallang? AngMoKio? anywhere you grew up ...

When I am overseas, meeting any Singaporeans from any part of SG, from any dialect groups, from any social backgrounds, creates an immediate bonds and warm-feelings. Why I so care about HK/Taiwan/China chinese?

To disappoint you somewhat, I have actually visited my ancestral village in China, and I had no problems communicating with the relatives there. I don't feel attached to them, just as I don't feel attached to any Tom, Dick and Harry Chinese guy in Sinkieland.

Your point on meeting overseas Sinkies - yes an immediate bond is there, but I feel even closer if we break out in Hokkien, so the bond with Sinkies is not equal by any means.

No one is asking for Mandarin learning to be discontinued in Singapore; you are right that it facilitates communication among the Chinese. What is wrong, however, is wiping out dialects to achieve that, which need not be the case.

I did not say wiping out dialects, I just said I am an average Singaporean Chinese, raising kids to be equiped with necessary skills and knowledge to be useful and productive in the future. My Hokkian backgroup can take a backseat, as I have never been to China-Hokkian regions to seek my roots. I do not feel any more or less chinese than those dialect speakers. Why I care other dailect speakers in HK/Taiwan, or some SG dialect speakers, about my identity. At least, I have NEVER heard people argu, protest, complain about English replacing dialects in SG's family and business.

I did not say anything about dialect speakers in HK/TW/China. If you're fine as you are then I say good for you.

Yes, dialects don't need to be learned. One just picks it up from parents, relatives, friends and relatives naturally. I think that MM Lee K.Y. thought dialect needs to be learned, probably because after the Lim Chin Siong experience, he went learning Hokkien and Mandarain, artificially, superficially and mechanically. Why not let it sustain itself naturally? There's no effort required in learning dialects as far as I've experienced, especially when starting from childhood. I can speak Hokkien and Cantonese and enjoy HK and Taiwanese songs and movies in original versions without needing dubbing or subtitling. I haven't spent a single minute learning those dialects.

Ramseth said:

Yes, dialects don't need to be learned. One just picks it up from parents, relatives, friends and relatives naturally. I think that MM Lee K.Y. thought dialect needs to be learned, probably because after the Lim Chin Siong experience, he went learning Hokkien and Mandarain, artificially, superficially and mechanically. Why not let it sustain itself naturally? There's no effort required in learning dialects as far as I've experienced, especially when starting from childhood. I can speak Hokkien and Cantonese and enjoy HK and Taiwanese songs and movies in original versions without needing dubbing or subtitling. I haven't spent a single minute learning those dialects.

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u damn cheena mah. Not everyone is like you. I learnt more about hokkien from NS. Then with my teochew knowledge i learnt gor = 5. teochew we call it nou. so last time didn't know what the fuck when my frens said pai gor but finally knew it. yio = 1. Well i used jik.

Jah_rastafar_I said:

....... with my teochew knowledge i learnt gor = 5. teochew we call it nou.

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Hi Jah,

I am not teochew but when I was in China I listened to the way Teochews speak there, it sounded a little different from the Teochew dialect I hear in Singapore. Have you heard the way the mainland Teochews speak and confirm what I observed, or was it just my perception?

Thanks.

snrcitizen said:

Hi Jah,

I am not teochew but when I was in China I listened to the way Teochews speak there, it sounded a little different from the Teochew dialect I hear in Singapore. Have you heard the way the mainland Teochews speak and confirm what I observed, or was it just my perception?

Thanks.

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my mum's side is teochew with baba influence, my dad's side is teochew from china. i think my paternal grandma was born in china but both my parents were born in singapore. Was closer to my mum's side all along yet i could understand what my paternal grandma was saying when she spoke.

I have not heard teochew's from china speaking nor have a change to converse with them hence i dunno but i have spoken to thai teochews and they could more or less understand what i was saying.

Jah_rastafar_I said:

my mum's side is teochew with baba influence, my dad's side is teochew from china. i think my paternal grandma was born in china but both my parents were born in singapore. Was closer to my mum's side all along yet i could understand what my paternal grandma was saying when she spoke.

I have not heard teochew's from china speaking nor have a change to converse with them hence i dunno but i have spoken to thai teochews and they could more or less understand what i was saying.

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I can assume that your paternal grandma's way of speaking would be close to those in the mainland. Since you understand what she says, it looks like it was just my wrong perception that the mainland Teochews would sound different from Singaporean Teochews.

Thanks for the clarification. I was just curious.

snrcitizen said:

...just my wrong perception that the mainland Teochews would sound different from Singaporean Teochews.

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Even amongst teochews, there are some variations (shades of intra dialects?). Reflects diff districts from swatow I'm told.

For all the merits to push mandarin, why forsake or sacrifice mother tongue ('dialectly' speaking)??

appeal to small boys Devil wee-int-in and Hakka tiow,

small boys pls dun xia suay yourself ....people here talking abt big things and uncle has big things to contribute....you go and play with your kindergarten gang first,...later uncle give both of you comprehension exercise again....pls oso do your corrections....haizzzz......uncel do not blame you if you want attention and fame uncle can help open doors but you must sustain it yoursefl hor

Hakka Tiow said:

I've gone through it all already. Had not been active here since sam leong deleted all my posts. Not until today when I came across this thread and find the arrogant style vaguely familiar and the cheebai took the bait when i put out a lure post. KNN, he's my old fuck toy mudskipper!

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aiyo aiyo sayang sayang ...wounded kid A talking to wounded kid B, poor things talking abt how they kena left right center from uncle now hide under new nicknames in new forum....haizzz....i adivse you both to start thinking abt your next nicknames...... as usual uncle will just win and you all will end up kena suan by everybody.....sian anot? everytime change nickname oso kena

Devil Within said:

That lancheowless faggot in Guard unit? Yah, big fuck(less). He must be having some deprived childhood or something. Always trying so hard to show off his big inflated ego on cyberspace. He is incapable of any good discussion. He just wanted to be fucked that's all. Just check his previous post and you will know.

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small boy devil wee-in-tin, you say how uncle can inspire so many people to come out and discuss serous things... thats why uncle always tell u must read more and have substance, if you everytime cut and paste from youtube and wilkopedia, people will know you have no standard..... wilkopedia is for people who dunno anything....must learn from uncle and be more hardowrking,...you see your kuching kurap threads always dies off if not for uncle's support....you see anot?...uncle can help you and give you attention but that is the easy part....you must have the "liao" to sustain it...see anot?

unicando said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by unicando
hi, i m not versed in china history....but mandarin is useful as most ppl in china and taiwan use mandarin so good to learn it. also, anyone know what china mean and what it refer to? google it and wiki suggests china may come from the word sina or sinae (roman/greek), so ancient roman and greek refer to ancient china as sinae (probably thru the silk trade route). does it mean sinae mean silk ppl since silk trade route begin during han dynasty and reached it peak during the tang dynasty? it's a crazy tot...but what if si nae really mean silk ppl then which chinese dialect sound similar?


>i dun see why a greco-roman word should have anything to do with chinese dialects. >this is what the ang mos call china not what the chinese call themselves. the han >chinese oso called Rome "Da Qin"...are you going to say that it is supposed to sound >like a latin word?

what then is sinae or sina? wiki was not clear to pinpoint it... maybe when if we separate it as si (silk) nae (ppl) and try to relate to the silk trading that ancient china ppl did (han ppl and tang ppl) maybe it can be clearer.

anyway, i read from wiki than ancient china beside exporting silk via the silk trade routes, ancient china imported many staffs and practices from the outside world thru the silk trade routes also. One important import is buddhism. a important monk that went to india during the tang dynasty bought back many sutras the treasure being the heart sutra. since this sutra was translated during the tang dynasty we can quote to see whether it can help us learn something about the tang dynasty spoken form....

揭諦 揭諦 波羅揭諦 波羅僧揭諦 菩提 薩婆訶

one can try pronuncing using the various chinese spoken form like mandarin, cantonese, hokkien, teochew, hainan, hakka, ...etc and listen whether which dialect sound similar to the sanskrit romanise pronunciation below:

Gate gate Pāragate Pārasaṃgate Bodhi svāhā

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you said the word is used by romans to refer to china and obviously it is not chinese and yet you want to see if it sounded like chinese. it is like saying the word "China" must oso sound like something from chinese and from soemthing which the chinese call themselves. however, that is not the case. "China", "Cathay" and "Sinae" are distinctively non-chinese in origin.
and you have oso not followed what is going on..... in the days of the roman empire, there are no dialects like hokkien or cantonese and no mandarin....chinese speak old chinese.

banova888 said:

WTF! are you talking about?
Are you chinese?
Which dialect group do you belong to?

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just ignore him la, he will lower the level of our discussion

Hakka Tiow said:

Check his earliest posts. From Guard unit woh! Yah mudskipper will guard his mother selling her cunt to banglas for five dollars a fuck!

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was from guards unit...last time guards unit is like commando.... only diff is no airborne.....scared anot? later uncle rappel into your house tonight and spot check on your homework hor...better do them now ...dun let uncle catch you hor

Ramseth said:

Yes, dialects don't need to be learned. One just picks it up from parents, relatives, friends and relatives naturally. I think that MM Lee K.Y. thought dialect needs to be learned, probably because after the Lim Chin Siong experience, he went learning Hokkien and Mandarain, artificially, superficially and mechanically. Why not let it sustain itself naturally? There's no effort required in learning dialects as far as I've experienced, especially when starting from childhood. I can speak Hokkien and Cantonese and enjoy HK and Taiwanese songs and movies in original versions without needing dubbing or subtitling. I haven't spent a single minute learning those dialects.

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exactly, dialects need not be learnt in that sense but its use must not be ostracised and we have to remove the old mentality that speaking dialect is low class or dialects are low class.

dialects are a direct link to our roots. it is impt to know that our ancestors spoke something that would sound more like cantonese and hokkien than mandarin. mandarin is the modern language of china and that is a fair comment to make because for much of its history, china was ruled by northern tunguistic people and so mandarin is a mix between the languages of the north and the south. we do not have to continue to act like humble, conquered people and forget our roots

yansen84 said:

Are you the old fart writing in pseudonym? It reflects on your ignorance as much when you make statements as such, basing conclusions upon your or your offspring's ability, or lack thereof. I am a product of the y-generation education system here, and I have no problems speaking at least 2 dialects in addition to the 'mainstream' languages.

I am no doubt you are a genius in languages!
unfortunately there are many kids that I know are struggling everyday in languages. I am not saying that we should be wiping off dialects extirely, I am just presenting my own average-joe mental power's point of view . To pack so much knowledge and skills in a short span of school years into my own kids, is a hugh job.

I am not a genius. Mind you, I am just as average a Joe as you claim to be. Besides, I did not propose to include dialect-learning in the school curriculum, did I? I merely said we shouldn't be taking such a negative view of it; if you don't call the govt's stance of banning it on TV and radio as an attempt to wipe it out, I don't know what is. To prove I am not an empty vessel, let me give my humble suggestions. First, we should start to include dialect programmes on national TV. Make programmes that teach dialect so that anyone who wants to learn can pick it up, instead of compelling kids to learn it (as you accuse me of saying). Second, we could teach dialect in schools on an opt-in basis. By this I mean, as an example, dialect courses as electives in universities, which would allow those who want to learn a chance to do so yet not having it forced down their throat.


I should probably just wake you up from your convenient misconception that dialect needs to be learnt. Well at least I did not have to. You pick it up speaking to your parents and the previous generations in everyday conversation. And if your children can't speak any of it, it probably reflects on you adopting a policy of not speaking it in your family.



Yoiu should take a trip to your dialect regions in China, to see if people there are resemble, in any form or shape or thinking of yours. For a a locally born and bred Singaporean to claim to be emotionally and identically attached to their dialect groups overseas are pure joke. You do not feel anything to those chineses growing up with you in Kallang? AngMoKio? anywhere you grew up ...

When I am overseas, meeting any Singaporeans from any part of SG, from any dialect groups, from any social backgrounds, creates an immediate bonds and warm-feelings. Why I so care about HK/Taiwan/China chinese?

To disappoint you somewhat, I have actually visited my ancestral village in China, and I had no problems communicating with the relatives there. I don't feel attached to them, just as I don't feel attached to any Tom, Dick and Harry Chinese guy in Sinkieland.

Your point on meeting overseas Sinkies - yes an immediate bond is there, but I feel even closer if we break out in Hokkien, so the bond with Sinkies is not equal by any means.

No one is asking for Mandarin learning to be discontinued in Singapore; you are right that it facilitates communication among the Chinese. What is wrong, however, is wiping out dialects to achieve that, which need not be the case.

I did not say wiping out dialects, I just said I am an average Singaporean Chinese, raising kids to be equiped with necessary skills and knowledge to be useful and productive in the future. My Hokkian backgroup can take a backseat, as I have never been to China-Hokkian regions to seek my roots. I do not feel any more or less chinese than those dialect speakers. Why I care other dailect speakers in HK/Taiwan, or some SG dialect speakers, about my identity. At least, I have NEVER heard people argu, protest, complain about English replacing dialects in SG's family and business.

I did not say anything about dialect speakers in HK/TW/China. If you're fine as you are then I say good for you.

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just a few points, if you are happy speaking english only or if you are baba and feel no connection whatsover with china. or if you are a baba or anglophile but would like to be able to connect and do business in china by learning mandarin. that is fine. we are not here to and should not discriminate and practice fascism along the lines of our dialect groups.

we are talking the big picture and whether as a matter of policy, we in signapore should discourage the learning and use of dialects.

my message is to those who think that they are sinophiles and are being in contact with your chinese roots by learning and perfecting your mandarin . you are totally barking up the wrong tree. Learning mandarin only gives you three hundred years of heritage and history and most of these are manchu or tungustic heritage.

learning and being aware of your dialects will connect you further to your chinese roots. those who watched the Red Cliff or play the sangoku game and knows a little abt chinese history. please take note that after the time of three kingdoms and on more than one occasion, china was ruled by northern barbarian tribes form the tungus and their language is altaic in origin (sometime like korean and japanese). three kingdoms history ended sometime around the 200s AD and by the 300 ADs, china (esp. the north) was fragmented and ruled by different barbarian tribes like the Di, the xianbeu and hsiong-nu alongside chinese kingdoms for another 300 years. that ended in the 600s AD with the sui and tang dynasties. Tang dynasty lasted another 300 years and was largely a chinese edynasty even thought the tang rulers themselves are half chinese and half barbarian. china was fragmneted again for 200 years before the sung dynasty. significantly during the time of the sung, the jin dynasty or ancestors of the manchus ruled northern china before their regime was destroyed by the mongols. then came the mongols who ruled china for 100 over years before the next chinese dynasty, the ming came about. Ming ended in 1644 and the manchus came to power for another 300 years.

contact with these altaic peoples oso has an impact on the culture and language of the native chinese ppl. mandarin is a reflection of a thousand years of interaction between the original chinese and the altaic peoples. so if you live in the PRC today, you ought to be speaking mandarin at least. if you are descendant of someone from southern china and speak a southern dialect, the truth is your ancestors were refugees who came from the north to escape from the northern barbarians at one stage and your ancestors were from the original chinese stock. today, you are a mixed blood descendant of this original chinese people who has intermarried with the natives peoples from the south. so you have oso a duty to keep alive the chinese heritage in you.

note i do not support taiwan and tibet independence. history tells us there are time for unity and oso room for diversity. pls do not try to make a policitical agenda with our heritage.

I think dialect is important, simply its the language our parents, our grandparents have been using. To ditch away those languages, it is just like ditching away the cultural heritage, the values, starting from our parents, and grandparents. Simple as that.

Here's a little history on Mandarin from wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandarin_Chinese

"Chronologically, there is no clear line to mark where Middle Chinese ends and Mandarin begins; however, the Zhōngyuán Yīnyùn (中原音韵), a rhyme book from the Yuan Dynasty, is widely regarded as a milestone in the history of Mandarin. In this rhyme book we see many characteristic features of Mandarin, such as the reduction and disappearance of final stop consonants and the reorganization of the Middle Chinese tones."

So to learn Mandarin, that too could connect to chinese roots. Why go talk down about Mandarin as a language, unable to perform the job in keeping one's contact with chinese roots??

http://www.sammyboy.com/showpost.php?p=197502&postcount=275

"my message is to those who think that they are sinophiles and are being in contact with your chinese roots by learning and perfecting your mandarin . you are totally barking up the wrong tree. Learning mandarin only gives you three hundred years of heritage and history and most of these are manchu or tungustic heritage."

Dialect is important. It has its great value in connecting with traditional value starting from our parents, and grandparents. PAP and LKY their act of eradicating dialect here is in fact telling the people, the language our parent and grandparents using, are shit. Dialect is trash. Thats the message of the PAP. And we should all condemn PAP and LKY's message.

But why belittle mandarin by stating that it cannot be use to connect to chinese root? Isn't that message just simply complicate the whole thing? Promoting upholding of dialect, that doesn't have to go demote the value of mandarin. Its not a zero sum game between mandarin and dialect. One of the forumer had said, its very easy to learn diaclect if one had know how to speak mandarin, and vice versa, to that effect. And I couldn't agree more with that.

Let me repeat. Dialect (Chinese) and Mandarin, they are complimentary spoken language. Its not a zero sum game between these two spoken language.

It is Lee Kuan Yew's problem, his mindset, attitude problem, his poor language capacity, if he can't handle both Mandarin and dialect. Its his problem he go view Mandarin and dialect as zero sum game, that these two language is mutually exclusive.

BUT we don't have to dance on the string pull by Lee Kuan Yew isnt' it??

char_jig_kar said:

It is Lee Kuan Yew's problem, his mindset, attitude problem, his poor language capacity, if he can't handle both Mandarin and dialect. Its his problem he go view Mandarin and dialect as zero sum game, that these two language is mutually exclusive.

BUT we don't have to dance on the string pull by Lee Kuan Yew isnt' it??

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Mandarin is also a fucking dialect! don't give it undue credit!

yansen84 said:

Mandarin is also a fucking dialect! don't give it undue credit!

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if u think mandarin is another fucking dialect just like cantonese, hokkien or teochew, etc, so be it. i don't give a damn whether mandarin is a dialect or not.