[GPGT] GOH MENG SENG criticise Chen Show Mao speech + responses from netizens

[brocoli]

read the responses

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=2897900599785&id=1028466204

http://forums.fuckwarezone.com.sg/e...g-criticise-chen-show-mao-speech-3570337.html

100003210741553

 

[steffychun]

Just remember who is a Rhodes Scholar and who is a PAP-promoted CPT.

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

Frankly speaking, the so call "formula" proposed by WP is flawed. Very flawed.

Whatever formula you apply, it must be derived from a set of objective parameters which cannot be easily manipulated by the ruling party. While there are already people asking how many of the 1000 top income earners come from GLCs which could possibly be manipulated by the ruling party, to suggest peg to be set at the civil servant's salary is really oxymoron.

Any ruling party could just adjust the civil servant's pay and bingo, they would directly increase their own pay as well!

Furthermore, to think that we have been complaining about million dollar pay, WP's proposal will still put some senior ministers and PM salaries at million dollar setting as well. The basic pay for entry level ministers doesn't change at all, at $55K while the PM's basic pay every month only down $11K, from $110K to $99K.

The only big differences are to reduce the MP's salary and limiting the bonuses to 5 months. The original bonuses could be as high as 14.5 months.

So, is this anything big change to the present system?

Goh Meng Seng

 

[brocoli]

Frankly speaking, the so call "formula" proposed by WP is flawed. Very flawed.

Whatever formula you apply, it must be derived from a set of objective parameters which cannot be easily manipulated by the ruling party. While there are already people asking how many of the 1000 top income earners come from GLCs which could possibly be manipulated by the ruling party, to suggest peg to be set at the civil servant's salary is really oxymoron.

Any ruling party could just adjust the civil servant's pay and bingo, they would directly increase their own pay as well!

Furthermore, to think that we have been complaining about million dollar pay, WP's proposal will still put some senior ministers and PM salaries at million dollar setting as well. The basic pay for entry level ministers doesn't change at all, at $55K while the PM's basic pay every month only down $11K, from $110K to $99K.

The only big differences are to reduce the MP's salary and limiting the bonuses to 5 months. The original bonuses could be as high as 14.5 months.

So, is this anything big change to the present system?

Goh Meng Seng

hope you can find a better reception here where the forumer are olders

 

[Nice-Gook]

Me too was taken back,the moment I heard on TV of Chen Show Mao talking about 9 times for PM,a quick mental calculation pretty much puts the amount very close to the committee recommendations.

So,the WP is the sidekick of PAP after-all--a wayang party?

I hope to be proven wrong.Since the smell of betrayal is quite overpowering .

 

[brocoli]

Me too was taken back,the moment I heard on TV of Chen Show Mao talking about 9 times for PM,a quick mental calculation pretty much puts the amount very close to the committee recommendations.

So,the WP is the sidekick of PAP after-all--a wayang party?

I hope to be proven wrong.Since the smell of betrayal is quite overpowering .

WP win by appealing to the moderates who still want to attract greedy talent...

not by appealing to insects like you .... you really think the galaxy revolved around you....??

 

[ahkow]

WP is a very smart party. They know they have to win the mindshare of the broad middle ground. By limiting the number of month of bonuses, the cap for a junior minister is about $900K max whereas in the Gerard Ee's proposal it is $1.45m max. Quite a big difference and is something that you can sell to the population.

 

[Nice-Gook]

I have silently lurked soc.culture.singapore when GMS was the MADCOW.Could not agree with his point of view most of the time.When he equated some forummers here to insects very recently; I truly thought he lost his marbles.

But what he writes today about Chen Show Mao flawed formula ,pretty much makes a lot of sense.Chen Show Mao seems to have sold his soul to the devil.Which reminds me of Vivian Balakrishnan--a guy who came to politics as an idealist youth who wants to change the PAP within....in no time he was singing the LKY tune louder than the devil himself.

I pretty much suspected about the WP intend when Pritam was talking about forming a coalition with the PAP.

It's will be interesting to watch WP future speeches in the parliament.I got this gut feelings the whole affair about loosing Aljunied GRC is according the master plan.When GCT was whining why George Yeo and not WKS ; I already smelt a rat.

Let's see how the drama unfolds.Hey,Sam Leong didn't you warn about politicians as the dirtiest scums on this earth.And did I not agree that politicians are like diapers that need to be changed often for the same reason.

 

[brocoli]

I have silently lurked soc.culture.singapore when GMS was the MADCOW.Could not agree with his point of view most of the time.When he equated some forummers here to insects very recently; I truly thought he lost his marbles.

But what he writes today about Chen Show Mao flawed formula ,pretty much makes a lot of sense.Chen Show Mao seems to have sold his soul to the devil.Which reminds me of Vivian Balakrishnan--a guy who came to politics as an idealist youth who wants to change the PAP within....in no time he was singing the LKY tune louder than the devil himself.

I pretty much suspected about the WP intend when Pritam was talking about forming a coalition with the PAP.

It's will be interesting to watch WP future speeches in the parliament.I got this gut feelings the whole affair about loosing Aljunied GRC is according the master plan.When GCT was whining why George Yeo and not WKS ; I already smelt a rat.

Let's see how the drama unfolds.Hey,Sam Leong didn't you warn about politicians as the dirtiest scums on this earth.And did I not agree that politicians are like diapers that need to be changed often for the same reason.

ahkow get it ... you dun.... WP need to appeal least to the hard core opp .... because their loyalty is confirm...

WP is too hare brain socialist.... I want to change the WP from within so that they can be more pro market ....

but I need to do that with socialist front 1st .... still waiting for Chia Ti Lik to accept my membership so that I can transform the SF from within into a Hard COre ROn PAUL free market party 1st

 

[Perspective]

A village idiot has gained such a certain reputation that anything he criticizes gain credibility. People no longer read into the argument value, just see his name only will automatic add points to his opponent.

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

I really don't know insects like to put up make ups and dress up (like a clown?) to hide the real details?

I only know the PAP, during Goh's administration peak, like to sugar coat their bitter pills with all flowery language and phrases like "asset enhancement" while in effect, a policy of higher HDB prices. But it seems that while WP is talking all about "Political service is a calling and not be treated as discount factor", in the end, they came up with a formula which doesn't really change the basic pay much, just a few tweaks here and there and most importantly, still end up with million dollar PM.

I am not the only one who actually notice this but it seems that someone in parliament has "caught" WP "off guard" when he questioned Gerald Giam on why the WP's proposal end up with a basic pay higher than what is proposed by the Review Committee. Yes, of course he has been mistaken but Gerald answered, oh, it is not higher, but the same... wait, after all the talk about Political service is a calling, still end up the same basic pay?

Watch this video till the ending part...

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/MwyiVS_cTM4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[LeMans2011]

GMS chose to whack CSM on the dollar value and omitted the whole presentation about the principles in determining the pay. This is a classic case of anti-opposition. He seems bent on proving WP is not credible - i am very disappointed at this man who cannot get over the past. Proving WP wrong seems to be his purpose in life. You are free to reject the 5x or 9x multiples, you could suggest a lower multiple. But there should be some focus on the principle behind WP's proposal, while it is not perfect it seems a good compromise in the present curcumstances. Whoever that has been in the corporate world before understands we need to compromise to achieve a workable solution that appeals to the majority. Being radical and head on confrontation is not WP's brand if politics.. and people's acceptance to this is proven by votes. Get over it, GMS!

 

[moolightaffairs]

alamak! u all really too free! the diff is the bonus! now who assess their performance bonus? suka suka get max bonus, put a cap to the bonus is good. sometime lumpar keh tio. perm sec and those judges pay already very close to ministers pay liao. so pay cut also got limit. if WP suggest too drastic pay cut, they may appear too 偏激. which is bad for the wp future. 中庸 is the way to be and can gain more support from those undecided public. anyway what wp suggested wont be accepted, wayang for what?

 

[Perspective]

Someone unwittingly attributed himself as an insect and I am amazed the chap really has the balls to use this label again. Indeed I was wrong, he is ballsful as said by some here.

Who cares what the village insect thinks of others when <s>it</s> he wanted to scrap HDB grants for Singaporeans. At least I would rather pay $1 per month more to high-paying ministers than lose more than $40,000 worth of grant.

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

I have already said, WP's fundamental point of pegging the pay to the civil servant is oxymoron. i.e. there will be conflict of interests if ruling party wants to increase civil servant pay. It is not just simple dollar value.

Listen carefully to Gerald's speech. On one hand, he admitted that very very few government around the world give bonuses to political appointees (except Japan) BUT in the end, WP still agrees to bonuses of maximum 5 months! I have already made myself very clear that political appointees should not be awarded bonuses; if they don't perform, it is the job of voters to vote them out next round.

Goh Meng Seng

 

[moolightaffairs]

GMS chose to whack CSM on the dollar value and omitted the whole presentation about the principles in determining the pay. This is a classic case of anti-opposition. He seems bent on proving WP is not credible - i am very disappointed at this man who cannot get over the past. Proving WP wrong seems to be his purpose in life. You are free to reject the 5x or 9x multiples, you could suggest a lower multiple. But there should be some focus on the principle behind WP's proposal, while it is not perfect it seems a good compromise in the present curcumstances. Whoever that has been in the corporate world before understands we need to compromise to achieve a workable solution that appeals to the majority. Being radical and head on confrontation is not WP's brand if politics.. and people's acceptance to this is proven by votes. Get over it, GMS!

well said! add you! add me back if you want!

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

Well, it seems to be a big irony here. While CSM's first speech about persuading PAP to accept criticisms and used the ancient Chines history as example, insects from his party actually intolerant of criticisms of him and the party now? These insects just happened to jump high and low when that speech was made... what an irony and hypocrisy.

Goh Meng Seng

 

[Perspective]

Hmmm... I seem to recall Chen Show Mao calling the PAP to listen to good advice and the next party to should be... WP? No, NSP, because a fattened village insect proudly hoisting its NSP logo seems to be jumping (with much difficulty due to its weight) over scrapping HDB grants idea. Other than there are no other insects or known party members except it, yet it turns around pointing that hairy bug leg to others as insects and hinting the presence of non-existent party members. Only in SBF does the pot calling the silverware black hit new lows, and Leongsam should be proud. No wonder he defended the FVI.

 

[Fook Seng]

I would not want to go overboard with lowering the absolute dollar value of the salaries for the time being at least. If it is 36% or 37%, let that be for the time being. With even this reduction, many others will be affected, including the top executives in the GLCs, some who are drawing a few times the ministerial salaries. There will be some levering down to do in the GLCs especially in the top levels. They deserve it because they have been enjoying obscene salaries for too long. The top civil servants might also get their pay adjusted. Honestly, do you really want to make even further reduction? When you do that, that reduction would filter down to even the middle ranks in the GLCs and the civil service. For those people in the top echelons, even though they are affected, they can take care of themselves. They could sell one or two investment properties and they would still be OK. Of course there would be an impact on the economy. Those people who are dependent on a strong growing property market might get affected. So would also be the financing sector of the economy. That would also be affected. As long as this is limited to just the top few, the impact would be minimal. Once the reduction filters down the ranks this could become a problem. If the reduction reaches the middle class, people who have only one property to hold, it would be a nightmare to them. I know many forummers here are not civil servants or working for GLCs and even if they are, the reduction probably might not filter down to them as many are still young. But there are many other people who do work for the Government or for government linked companies and they will be affected. I am saying this not because I am one of them. I am not. I am just stating a fact. While I do not encourage a move for a further reduction at this point in time, I do agree with GMS that benchmarking to a top civil servant's pay is not a good suggestion for the same reason that GMS has mentioned that this benchmark can easily be manipulated. A benchmark taken from a statistic of the entire worker population will be a more resilient figure to use, something not so easily manipulated, e.g. the median income of the population. It does not matter how times multiple it is but at least the ministerial income is firmly tied to the bulk of the population and there is every incentive that the policy makers will ensure that this income is well protected. I believe the Opposition has missed a good chance to suggest an amendment to the salary review proposal that would be difficult to refute especially if there is no change to the absolute dollar value of the salaries proposed.

 

[myfoot123]

Frankly speaking, the so call "formula" proposed by WP is flawed. Very flawed.

Whatever formula you apply, it must be derived from a set of objective parameters which cannot be easily manipulated by the ruling party. While there are already people asking how many of the 1000 top income earners come from GLCs which could possibly be manipulated by the ruling party, to suggest peg to be set at the civil servant's salary is really oxymoron.

Any ruling party could just adjust the civil servant's pay and bingo, they would directly increase their own pay as well!

Furthermore, to think that we have been complaining about million dollar pay, WP's proposal will still put some senior ministers and PM salaries at million dollar setting as well. The basic pay for entry level ministers doesn't change at all, at $55K while the PM's basic pay every month only down $11K, from $110K to $99K.

The only big differences are to reduce the MP's salary and limiting the bonuses to 5 months. The original bonuses could be as high as 14.5 months.

So, is this anything big change to the present system?

Goh Meng Seng

I think WP's initiative was that the entry level minister total salary should not exceed $1mil after reducing the number of bonuses as proposed by the committee but the basic salary remained unchanged subjected to review in 5 years time. If Singaporeans are still not getting a better off in salary, than the next review salary will have to be lowered further again.