Ptader, LTK, WP & Racism

[yellowarse]

One sparrow does not a summer make.

Just like TJS left SDP, would you say "see SDP got brain-drain, now left brain-dead"?

One swallow does not a summer make. Definitely TJS leaving SDP has not left SDP brain-dead, neither has PTader leaving LTK-led WP left WP brain-dead, which has 6 seats in Parliament.

Why so defensive?

 

[billisnotathome]

I wouldn't. PTader didn't make a racist remark, e.g. Indians are untrustworthy. He said that somebody else, LTK, is racist.

First, it's free speech. Second, as an insider and as someone who knows LTK he might know something about LTK that I don't.

Whom am I to say that LTK is a racist or not, if I don't even know the guy? But if an insider speaks, I listen. I may or may not believe him, but he has every right to air his opinion.

Calling someone a mongoloid web-toed cuntflap is an opinion. Calling someone a racist is not a fucking opinion. It is an accusation and it demands proof. If there are grounds for this everyone would love to hear it. Has he had a policy of prioritizing the needs of Chinky residents in Hougang over those of other races during his tenure as MP in Hougang? Written secret derogatory articles in some obscure Mandarin newsletter? Where is the evidence?

If some fucking disgruntled relative of yours started posting that your wife and daughter were moonlighting as whores in Geylang because he overheard them secretly admitting it, would you regard that as his opinion and free fucking speech?

Fucking beggars belief.

 

[yellowarse]

If some fucking disgruntled relative of yours started posting that your wife and daughter were moonlighting as whores in Geylang because he overheard them secretly admitting it, would you regard that as his opinion and free fucking speech?

Racism is a belief which may or may not express itself in discriminatory action of some sort. The evidence is not like taking a snapshot of your wife in a Geylang brothel.

Example: if my friend tells me he thinks Indians are two-headed snakes, he's a racist. I don't have a tape recording to prove it. But I'll tell you he's a racist because I know him and I know his opinions.

Likewise someone who knows LKY well might say he's a racist but not have a tape recording to prove it. Is he wrong to air his opinion? Do you have to kill 6 million Jew to prove you're a racist?

 

[metalmickey]

Just like TJS left SDP, would you say "see SDP got brain-drain, now left brain-dead"?

Haha... on one hand SDP has been acting pretty brain dead over the last week.

you don't really need TJS to leave the party for CSJ to be brain dead.

 

[billisnotathome]

Racism is a belief which may or may not express itself in discriminatory action of some sort. The evidence is not like taking a snapshot of your wife in a Geylang brothel.

Surely a racist who has been in public service for over 20 years will have left even a vague trail of discriminatory evidence as proof of his belief. We don't need a fucking tape recording, we need evidence that his 'racism' affects the way he conducts himself, or governs with regard other races. Where is the evidence?

Example: if my friend tells me he thinks Indians are two-headed snakes, he's a racist. I don't have a tape recording to prove it. But I'll tell you he's a racist because I know him and I know his opinions.

Likewise someone who knows LKY well might say he's a racist but not have a tape recording to prove it. Is he wrong to air his opinion? Do you have to kill 6 million Jew to prove you're a racist?

He might not have a tape recording, but the discriminatory policy of not trusting Malays in the upper echelons of the military and sensitive areas of the civil service can be grounds for debate. Again, hearsay means fuck all in this context.

 

[metalmickey]

Example: if my friend tells me he thinks Indians are two-headed snakes, he's a racist. I don't have a tape recording to prove it. But I'll tell you he's a racist because I know him and I know his opinions.

Likewise someone who knows LKY well might say he's a racist but not have a tape recording to prove it. Is he wrong to air his opinion? Do you have to kill 6 million Jew to prove you're a racist?

Well at the same time that I think that it's highly dangerous for Ptader to say these things, now, on balance I don't believe that LTK is racist. But from now on I will be watching him and asking myself "is he racist?" That means I don't 100% disbelieve it either. Scroobal asked a very good question - where are all the capable Malay / Indian people? Opposition parties are supposed to be overrepresented when it comes to minorities.

We don't need a tape recording to prove that LKY is a racist. We know that he's a racist. He already said stuff like "Malays and Muslims don't integrate well in Singapore" and he even had to eat his own words later. Imagine LKY eating his own words!!! If he didn't have Toh Chin Chye, Goh Keng Swee and Rajaretnam around him to curb his worst instincts, I shudder to think what Singapore will be like.

 

[scroobal]

Its a well known fact that LTK's pet subjects are Nantah and the Chinese, the way the Chinese Ed treat it. I have also no doubt that LTK joined WP because all other Chinese Ed focused political vehicles were targeted by the old man or ISD and there was little room to move. We all have our pet causes and our biases.

The issue in the fall out with JBJ in WP cannot to attributed to intrigues of LTK but a direct result of JBJ failing as an editor and leader and allowing one moron to bring down an entire party with a article written in Tamil. The fact that it was an Indian cultural group that sued and won made it even worse. The irony is that this Indian group showed mercy to WP by withdrawing the writ and only going after JBJ and the moron. Someone had to step in and most capable people would have done just that. In this case LTK did. So lets not ignore the true reasons.

I can tell you if SDP fields any Indian candidate in what is already a fiasco, the Indian community as race would have to face the consequences. We cannot demand minority rights be protected and then ignore what a moron like Balakrishnan did what he did.

Lets assume for argument sake that LTK is an absolute racist and will do the minorities in. Why can't you or any other entities including existing ones provide alternate or better vehicles to look after the interest of Singaporeans including the minorities. LTK and WP do not have the sole rights to act as opposition. Why constantly harp that LTK is racist, WP is PAP lite.

We are wasting valuable time and effort on an entity despite its proven, unproven or unknown inclinations while that same entity is making remarkable progress against the PAP. I have no doubt that PAP is the issue. Lets not cut our nose yo spite our face.

You are spot on about the Natah and Chinese-educated issues. That was Low's main motivation in joining politics. He was confident (or stupid) enough to reveal this ten years after joining the WP. He disclosed it to the 147th Prostitute Press in August 1991 ( Ref: "Sorry, you are not welcome, WP's Low tells the press", 147th Prostitute Press, 29 August 1991) where he revealed he was "angry over the closure of Nantah". Needless to say, it was also a revelation to JBJ and the party members.

The cadreship who had started being wary of Low after the 1991 Natah disclosure and "righteous-men-like-Lee Kuan Yew" revelation, have, with Low's successful backstabbing of JBJ and the passing of time, been proven right about who Low Thia Khiang really is, what he stood for and what he continues to stand for.

 

[yellowarse]

Surely a racist who has been in public service for over 20 years will have left even a vague trail of discriminatory evidence as proof of his belief. We don't need a fucking tape recording, we need evidence that his 'racism' affects the way he conducts himself, or governs with regard other races. Where is the evidence?

If you're talking about 'vague trail' then any number of facts might qualify, including the failure of WP to induct many capable minority candidates. The JBJ ouster. Or the Fazli and Sajeev resignations.

A man with Low's political shrewdness will not be so stupid as to leave a black and white trail. Rather evidence of racism would have to come from his inner circle who are privy to his thoughts, philosophy and worldview; cadres and CEC members who have worked closely with him; minorities who have suffered the brunt of racist discrimination. Why don't you ask these people?

I don't know the man; so I can't say whether he's racist or not. But when someone who knows him well enough says he's a racist, I'm not going to diss it right away. And PTader isn't the first guy to mention racism in regard to LTK. It's just notable because he's Chinese, and a member of the old guard.

 

[yellowarse]

We are wasting valuable time and effort on an entity despite its proven, unproven or unknown inclinations while that same entity is making remarkable progress against the PAP. I have no doubt that PAP is the issue. Lets not cut our nose yo spite our face.

My stand is that the common enemy is the PAP, hence my consistent stance on opposition unity. But it all seems like a pipe dream now.

Still, even as we fight the common enemy through different vehicles, there's competition for talent among the various opposition parties. If one party is deemed racist by the minorities and is unable to retain capable minority candidates, it's that party's loss and another's gain. If one party focuses narrowly on policy issues but fails to work the ground, then they can't blame anyone for not getting enough votes to get into parliament.

So be it. Let the electoral playing field weed out the weak from the strong, if egos and historical make unity an fanciful notion. But aim the guns at the Goliath, not all the Davids.

 

[wwabbit]

You can't point to JBJ, Fazli, Gomez or Sanjeev and say that because they were minority, they must have been ousted because they were minorities. Each of them have their reasons to leave. Also, lots of Chinese members have been 'ousted' too. YSL, PLG, ET, CTL, GMS and many more, all for various reasons.

 

[SgParent]

One swallow does not a summer make. Definitely TJS leaving SDP has not left SDP brain-dead, neither has PTader leaving LTK-led WP left WP brain-dead, which has 6 seats in Parliament.

You were talking about "old guards and minorities". Not just PTader or whoever that is in real life. That's why I asked how you came to your conclusion.

So now you are saying only one pathetic fellow left WP?

Why so defensive?

Nope. I'm not being defensive. I'm just exercising my rights to "free speech and expression"

 

[yellowarse]

You were talking about "old guards and minorities". Not just PTader or whoever that is in real life. That's why I asked how you came to your conclusion.

So now you are saying only one pathetic fellow left WP?

Where did I say only 'one pathetic fellow left'?

You mentioned TJS leaving SDP brain-dead, so I said that's like saying PTader leaving WP brain-dead. That's all. An analogy to yours.

 

[SgParent]

Racism is a belief which may or may not express itself in discriminatory action of some sort. The evidence is not like taking a snapshot of your wife in a Geylang brothel.

Example: if my friend tells me he thinks Indians are two-headed snakes, he's a racist. I don't have a tape recording to prove it. But I'll tell you he's a racist because I know him and I know his opinions.

Likewise someone who knows LKY well might say he's a racist but not have a tape recording to prove it. Is he wrong to air his opinion? Do you have to kill 6 million Jew to prove you're a racist?

Dun be so defensive lah. I think billisnotathome is correct. Racism is an accusation.

Even if PTader knows Ah Low is a racist, if he can't prove it then he will be the guilty one, in the eyes of the Law and in the eyes of the neutral. And if you choose to take PTader's words and spread the same statement, you are equally guilty.

Case in point, TT Durai in the first few defamation suits, before TT Durai vs Braddell Road Brothel

 

[yellowarse]

And if you choose to take PTader's words and spread the same statement, you are equally guilty.

Don't put words in my mouth. My words exactly:

"I don't know the man; so I can't say whether he's racist or not. But when someone who knows him well enough says he's a racist, I'm not going to diss it right away."

All I said is if PTader knows the man well, he's entitled to give his opinion without getting infracted by the WP mobsters here.

I never once said LTK is a racist, though I know people - mainly minorities - who say so.

 

[SgParent]

You mentioned TJS leaving SDP brain-dead, so I said that's like saying PTader leaving WP brain-dead. That's all. An analogy to yours.

Ok. So who are the "old guards and minorities" that have left and what are their "issues with LTK"?

Do they follow a strong pattern or they are isolated, just like TSJ-left-SDP? Again, the burden of proof is on the accuser. And "PTader said so" is simply not good enough.

 

[SgParent]

Don't put words in my mouth. My words exactly:

"I don't know the man; so I can't say whether he's racist or not. But when someone who knows him well enough says he's a racist, I'm not going to diss it right away."

All I said is if PTader knows the man well, he's entitled to give his opinion without getting infracted by the WP mobsters here.

I never once said LTK is a racist, though I know people - mainly minorities - who say so.

Saying "I dunno" but then in the same breathe repeat the same accusation by claiming others have said so, means you are spreading the same message.

Just like "I dunno whether yellowarse said Ah Low is a racist or not, but billisnotathome, wwabbit confirmed yellowarse said that". Do I sound convincing?

 

[yellowarse]

Saying "I dunno" but then in the same breathe repeat the same accusation by claiming others have said so, means you are spreading the same message.

Just like "I dunno whether yellowarse said Ah Low is a racist or not, but billisnotathome, wwabbit confirmed yellowarse said that". Do I sound convincing?

Don't twist my words. That's dishonest.

It's like: "Yellowarse said Ah Low is a racist. But, billisnotathome, because I'm not acquainted with Ah Low, but yellowarse is, I can only say that yellowarse is entitled to his opinion. I myself do not know whether Ah Low is racist or not."


Which part don't you understand?

 

[billisnotathome]

[/I]Which part don't you understand?

Presumably the part where accusing someone of racism is an opinion, and needs no evidence other than the tedious witterings of someone with an axe to grind.

 

[yellowarse]

Presumably the part where accusing someone of racism is an opinion, and needs no evidence other than the tedious witterings of someone with an axe to grind.

When a person accuses someone he knows well of racism, he obviously has evidence of it. But he many not have it in a tape recording or in print. Most times, the people around us whom we know are racist, we know because of remarks they make to us.

I have many racist friends - against Malays, Indians, etc, but you ask me for hard evidence I have none. Except for our conversations. I have a friend who will not employ Indians because of certain traits he associates with them. I know him to be a racist. But I don't have black and white evidence.

 

[metalmickey]

Don't twist my words. That's dishonest.

It's like: "Yellowarse said Ah Low is a racist. But, billisnotathome, because I'm not acquainted with Ah Low, but yellowarse is, I can only say that yellowarse is entitled to his opinion. I myself do not know whether Ah Low is racist or not."


Which part don't you understand?

Forget it man. This guy will keep on twisting your words. I've had it with him also.